40K technology/weapons/etc. discussion

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**Wyzilla**

Bobthehero wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
Bobthehero wrote:
No, just no, its like that idiocy where Orks don't know waht radition is so it can't affect them.

They're going to need a functionning system for their gun to fire, maybe they can use random ammo and not care, and maybe it works better than it should, but no, a stick with a trigger and a belt will do exactly nothing for the Orks no matter how strong they beleive.

Did you miss the part where Orks can have their head sewn back on and keep on living? Or Ghaz himself having his head blown to bits, getting sewn up and getting on with it? Or as the guy below you shows, how they completely ignore physics a lot of the time? Or Red Wunz just mysteriously go Fasta becaus eOrks believe despite absolutely no physics reasons?

If it looks like a shoota and the Mekz says its a shoota, its a zoggin' shoota!

I like to kill my braincells using alchool, not reading brainkilling stupid fluff, so no, I ignore those parts. Its too stupid for me to process.

Pilots also rip out their airbrakes to show off by going even faster, yet somehow still land.

**Deadshot**

Wyzilla wrote:
Bobthehero wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
Bobthehero wrote:
No, just no, its like that idiocy where Orks don't know waht radition is so it can't affect them.

They're going to need a functionning system for their gun to fire, maybe they can use random ammo and not care, and maybe it works better than it should, but no, a stick with a trigger and a belt will do exactly nothing for the Orks no matter how strong they beleive.

Did you miss the part where Orks can have their head sewn back on and keep on living? Or Ghaz himself having his head blown to bits, getting sewn up and getting on with it? Or as the guy below you shows, how they completely ignore physics a lot of the time? Or Red Wunz just mysteriously go Fasta becaus eOrks believe despite absolutely no physics reasons?

If it looks like a shoota and the Mekz says its a shoota, its a zoggin' shoota!

I like to kill my braincells using alchool, not reading brainkilling stupid fluff, so no, I ignore those parts. Its too stupid for me to process.

Pilots also rip out their airbrakes to show off by going even faster, yet somehow still land.

Then you sir, ignore everything about the Orks that makes them unique and not just another barbaric bloodthirsty alien race or standard orc from another setting. They are football hooligans in space combined with space magicks and mushrooms (DNA, not the drug), that just do things because zog off that's why. It's what makes the Orks Orks. You don't like the fact they just ignore physics when that's exactly the point. They ignore physics.

**Bobthehero**

Which is incredibly stupid and part of the reason I wish they never existed, they're not funny, they're not mysterious, they just exist and somehow ''gak works'' because whoever created them was too freaking lazy to come up with an explanation.

**Melissia**

If you don't like the comedic aspect of them, you can always focus on the more grimdark "unending green tide of technobarbarians that controls most of the galaxy" aspect.

**Bronzefists42**

It's possible celestine armor is some extremely old school archaeotech or perhaps even some sort of nano-machine trickery (I imagine the imperium fails to understand stuff like that, but I suppose it could react to strong emotions or some such.

More realistically, digital weaponry can probably be used on more than just weapons...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also Orks are Orks.

I personally think they are one of the few original and creative things Geedubs has churned out.

**DoomShakaLaka**

Actually the idea of Saints being Emperor- infused Angaels (see what I did there?) meshes very well with the Star Child Prophecy about the Emperor.

The Inquistion writes off the prophecy as the lies of Tzeentch, but this does not necessarily mean that they are right in their assessment.

**Melissia**

True, but they are explicitly stated to not be psychic and not be effected by things that effect psykers, so... it's not just "ermagerd they're warp-demons of da emprer!"

The supernatural aspects aren't powered by warp energy.

**Ashiraya**

There's a difference between being a psyker and being a daemon.

Even if we assume that this four-editions-old passage is still canon (despite its omission in every edition since?), it would not prevent a Living Saint from being, effectively, a Daemon Prince of the Emperor.

**Melissia**

Ashiraya wrote:
There's a difference between being a psyker and being a daemon.

Demons are still made up of warp energy, whethber or not they're classified as psykers for the purposes of gameplay.

Yes, this includes Khornate daemons. They are made up of warp energy.

**DoomShakaLaka**

Melissia wrote:
True, but they are explicitly stated to not be psychic and not be effected by things that effect psykers, so... it's not just "ermagerd they're warp-demons of da emprer!"

The supernatural aspects aren't powered by warp energy.

Wait.... so are they like pseudo-blanks then? This wouldn't be the first time a follower of the emperor was a blank though. The Sensei, the supposed sons of the Emperor( as in literally his children) who are immortal and are immune to the affects of the warp and psykers and have no presence in the immaterium. Since the Sisters are called the Daughters of the Emperor a similar scenario of sharing/ gaining the Emperor's DNA could have a similar affect maybe?

Or perhaps the Living Saints are able to do these things by utilizing their faith/ the faith of the Imperium in the Emperor similarly to the Orks and the power of the Waaagh (Something which is also explicitly stated to not be related to the warp)

On a side note: in the 40k universe there are only 3 ways to accomplish the supernatural actions the Living Saints have: either through the warp, Dark age technology, or through super-genetics.

**Ashiraya**

I am pretty sure that even the supergenetics of Astartes and Assassins do not allow them to shoot fire and fly. That's, like, Superman territory.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:
Demons are still made up of warp energy, whethber or not they're classified as psykers for the purposes of gameplay.

Yes, this includes Khornate daemons. They are made up of warp energy.

The Emperor is the most powerful psyker there is. Everything he does is Warp-related.

When the blessing of the Emperor manifests as glowing wings on the Living Saint's back and things like that, it's not hard to figure out that it's Warp.

**RaptorusRex**

What, if any, naval (in the conventional sense) vehicles would the Astartes use? I guess this can be chalked up to the fact nobody uses water terrain, but still...

**Grey Templar**

RaptorusRex wrote:
What, if any, naval (in the conventional sense) vehicles would the Astartes use? I guess this can be chalked up to the fact nobody uses water terrain, but still...

They'd use whatever boats are available planet side. But really boats are invalidated if you have reliable atmospheric and space flight. Water vessels are just slow moving targets for aircraft.

**Psienesis**

DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Melissia wrote:
True, but they are explicitly stated to not be psychic and not be effected by things that effect psykers, so... it's not just "ermagerd they're warp-demons of da emprer!"

The supernatural aspects aren't powered by warp energy.

On a side note: in the 40k universe there are only 3 ways to accomplish the supernatural actions the Living Saints have: either through the warp, Dark age technology, or through super-genetics.

Incorrect. The Living Saints and, indeed, all of the various Acts of Faith of the Sororitas possess, present the possibility of a 4th, and little understood, option.

**Grey Templar**

Psienesis wrote:
DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Melissia wrote:
True, but they are explicitly stated to not be psychic and not be effected by things that effect psykers, so... it's not just "ermagerd they're warp-demons of da emprer!"

The supernatural aspects aren't powered by warp energy.

On a side note: in the 40k universe there are only 3 ways to accomplish the supernatural actions the Living Saints have: either through the warp, Dark age technology, or through super-genetics.

Incorrect. The Living Saints and, indeed, all of the various Acts of Faith of the Sororitas possess, present the possibility of a 4th, and little understood, option.

While acts of faith certainly aren't psychic in the conventional sense, they do involve the Emperor somehow. Making them very much like daemons. Warp energy and psychic energy aren't the same thing. Psykers are a very specific part of the greater whole of warp manipulation.

A daemon of khorne manifests without using psychic power, but it does use warp energy. The Saints likely are similar. The Emperor uses his power to infuse them.

The only possible 4th option is its an imitation of the Waaagh field, belief given physical form and power.

**Psienesis**

"Like" is not "is".

**RaptorusRex**

The Grey Knights focus extensively on rapid strike and assault in battle. If they're so mobile, why in the hell doesn't Titan have at least a couple of Land Speeders lying around?

**Gordon Shumway**

Sorry if this seems completely incongruous with the fluff as I really know little about orks, but is it possible that the Waagh field is some sort of ability that allows orks to affect the physical universe in a fashion similar to the probabilistic nature of quantum mechanical phenomena but on whole objects, not just discrete particles? Sort of like the double-slit experiment illustrates happens to quantum sized particles?

**Grey Templar**

Thats the main theory behind it. That the Waaagh field is a massive psychic field that encourages things to work that otherwise shouldn't.

Guns that lack firing pins will still fire their bullets, improbable machinery will work despite the fact it shouldn't, and random acts of tinkering will result in usable items.

**Gordon Shumway**

That's actually pretty ingenious; extapolative sci if at its most humorous. Did Deepak Chopra write this stuff?

**RaptorusRex**

A Lucifer-pattern is merely a Castaferrum-pattern without all the toys, but with more frontal armor, correct?

**Psienesis**

Gordon Shumway wrote:
Sorry if this seems completely incongruous with the fluff as I really know little about orks, but is it possible that the Waagh field is some sort of ability that allows orks to affect the physical universe in a fashion similar to the probabilistic nature of quantum mechanical phenomena but on whole objects, not just discrete particles? Sort of like the double-slit experiment illustrates happens to quantum sized particles?

One thing to remember about the Orks is that, as a species, they are older than Mankind ever will be. They have a built-in genetic understanding of technology, and how to make something work (more or less). The understanding of the Waaagh! field and its effects are generally written from a humano-centric POV, generally from Imperial observers.

An Ork Mek might build some shootas that use an electronic/electrical firing assembly, for example. That is, it sends the round down-range by way of an electrical pulse that sets off the gunpowder in the bullet, rather than a pin that detonates a blasting cap. The AdMech, finding a gun without a firing pin and not understanding that is how it is intended to function, as "all the best weapons use firing pins!!!", passes it off to "Xeno Sorcery", rather than a mechanical principle he doesn't understand. The Waaagh! field comes into effect when the weapon performs more-reliably in the hands of an Ork than it does in the hands of a human... because the Ork knows that this shoota was built by a competent Mek and he spent a whole lotta teef on it, and he always gets what he pays for from dat Mek, so of course it's going to put out plenty of dakka, on time and (more or less) on target.

**PhillyT**

Bobthehero wrote:
Which is incredibly stupid and part of the reason I wish they never existed, they're not funny, they're not mysterious, they just exist and somehow ''gak works'' because whoever created them was too freaking lazy to come up with an explanation.

There is an explanation. The gestalt psychic energy of the race is one of the most powerful things in reality. It is on par with the Eldar except that it isn't controllable by an individual ork on a level comparable to the greatest Eldar. Instead, it works its magic on every aspect of ork culture and physiology, modifying the odds and actions a bit in the direction of success. As far as the old stuff about trukks operating without an engine because the boyz think it will, thats one or two scraps of flfuf that have been cleaned up to mean basically that because orks think red ones are faster, they really are a little faster.

**Krebsy**

Apologist wrote:
A few musings on chain weaponry, which on the face of it is fairly ridiculous (if awesome!)

If the weapon weren't powered-up (i.e. moving), it's essentially got a blade with many small points of contact with the material being cut – and therefore applying more pressure at each point than a straight blade. In addition, the points of contact are at a sharper angle to the material being cut, resulting in an action that involves many small splits in the surface of the material being cut, which cumulatively serve to cut the material along the line of the blade.

That to me sounds like a more reliable way to deal with very thick armour than a straight blade, assuming you've got the raw strength behind it to force it in in the first place. So, assuming a marine on marine combat, a chainsword actually seems a better weapon than a combat blade; which, while very sharp, can become lodged in ceramite. If a chainsword gets stuck in your enemy's armour, you can quickly gun the blade to throw them off balance and free the blade.

In addition, the fracturing results of a chainsword blow might result in ceramite splintering (I think it's mentioned somewhere that ceramite armour chips like rock, rather than metal), which helps stop the blade getting stuck in the first place.

Finally, perhaps we accept that ceramite power armour is proof against things like blades and chainswords. In this case, you can aim to hit the opponent while in close, sending the spinning blades skittering across the plate armour towards vulnerable joints and cables. Basically; get it between you and the opponent and rely on your armour to protect you while you tear open vulnerable sections.

Not a perfect argument, I'm aware; but I see chainswords being used more like drills than like a traditional sword.

Plus, remember that in medieval times, swords were more likely to crush and bludgeon whatever was inside the heavy plate armour rather than pierce through and actually cut anything...

K.

**Deadshot**

RaptorusRex wrote:
The Grey Knights focus extensively on rapid strike and assault in battle. If they're so mobile, why in the hell doesn't Titan have at least a couple of Land Speeders lying around?

Different tactics. Land Speeders are recon and rapid assault vehicles. They would land, go melta or strafe a straggling unit or vehicle and report back to the main force, who are most like on slower Rhinos or on foot. The Grey Knights on the other hand, usually fight Daemons, who are all located in a specific location (near the Warp Rift), they have diviners to tell them exactly when and how bad the invasion is, Heavy Bolters and Meltas are pretty average vs Daemons, and they can all teleport into the centre of the enemy's warzone. So anything the Land Speeder does, the Grey Knights can already do without it. And they have unlimited access to Stormravens, which are heavily armoured and armed and can transport their troops where they need to go if teleporting isn't an option. So why use Land Speeders? Same for Vindicators, which are siege vehicles when the GK don't do siege, or Whirlwinds and Predators when they don't do static defence. or Stalkers and Hunters when their only Ariel targets are Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons, which they want to fight in melee so they can banish them for centuries, capture them in Tesseracts or inflict True Death. There's no point.

**Finlandiaperkele**

Grey Templar wrote:
RaptorusRex wrote:
What, if any, naval (in the conventional sense) vehicles would the Astartes use? I guess this can be chalked up to the fact nobody uses water terrain, but still...

They'd use whatever boats are available planet side. But really boats are invalidated if you have reliable atmospheric and space flight. Water vessels are just slow moving targets for aircraft.

I could see Astartes Scouts using RHIB or other small boats during littoral insertions.

But yeah, those kinds of vehicles would be commandeered on-site.

**Grey Templar**

Come on guys, this thread was almost a year old.

**Keep**

Psienesis wrote:

An Ork Mek might build some shootas that use an electronic/electrical firing assembly, for example. That is, it sends the round down-range by way of an electrical pulse that sets off the gunpowder in the bullet, rather than a pin that detonates a blasting cap. The AdMech, finding a gun without a firing pin and not understanding that is how it is intended to function, as "all the best weapons use firing pins!!!", passes it off to "Xeno Sorcery", rather than a mechanical principle he doesn't understand.

While i agree with the point beeing made, the example is a bad one, as at least one Stormbolter pattern uses piezo electric ignition (was a internal schematic in a white dwarf).

Come on guys, this thread was almost a year old.

I'd rather have this then yet another stupid "40k vs other IP - who wins ?!!! " topic...

**dusara217**

Keep wrote:
Psienesis wrote:

An Ork Mek might build some shootas that use an electronic/electrical firing assembly, for example. That is, it sends the round down-range by way of an electrical pulse that sets off the gunpowder in the bullet, rather than a pin that detonates a blasting cap. The AdMech, finding a gun without a firing pin and not understanding that is how it is intended to function, as "all the best weapons use firing pins!!!", passes it off to "Xeno Sorcery", rather than a mechanical principle he doesn't understand.

While i agree with the point beeing made, the example is a bad one, as at least one Stormbolter pattern uses piezo electric ignition (was a internal schematic in a white dwarf).

Come on guys, this thread was almost a year old.

I'd rather have this then yet another stupid "40k vs other IP - who wins ?!!! " topic...

I thought all bolters used this method of firing, they have firing studs, not actual triggers.

**Grey Templar**

That was old fluff. Some bolter patters have electronic firing, but most use traditional and reliable mechanical firing. Its less prone to failure.