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If these Eradicators are around 120 per leaks, then they will erase their weight in points of Nid monsters in every shooting phase.

It really seems that the shooting twice ability is the thing that is an extra addition. They would be closely comparable to Shock Guard without it (similar stats, range, mobility), and that's the most point efficient anti-vehicle unit in the Nid codex.

It doesn't see much use only because the increased range and LoS ignore of Impalers is more practical.

Jorim wrote:
In what world were SM not top tier in 7th?

Formations not beeing used.

Jorim wrote:
In what world were SM not top tier in 7th?

In the pre-Formations world of 7th SM weren't really that good. They became powerful once they got access to Gladius Formations and then had the various new psychic powers come out that allowed them to make psychic death stars.

Kitane wrote:
If these Eradicators are around 120 per leaks, then they will erase their weight in points of Nid monsters in every shooting phase.

It really seems that the shooting twice ability is the thing that is an extra addition. They would be closely comparable to Shock Guard without it (similar stats, range, mobility), and that's the most point efficient anti-vehicle unit in the Nid codex.

It doesn't see much use only because the increased range and LoS ignore of Impalers is more practical.

The issue is 5PL does not equal 120 points when we already know units that are 115 points with no wargear options are 6PL.

Kitane wrote:
If these Eradicators are around 120 per leaks, then they will erase their weight in points of Nid monsters in every shooting phase.

Urgh. That's 7 tankbustas with Rokkits for nearly the same price.

The Tankbustas get reroll on 5+ vs vehicles and 7 shots. on a 1W BS5+ T4 6+ Armour. These are top tier Ork units. Also 8PL

Slipspace wrote:
I think a large part of the problem with the Eradicators is the perception of them as just being better than anything else with a similar role and it's a worrying trend for Primaris in particular. Their gun is just a better MM, made even more annoying by the fact there's currently a niche for an 18" range melta weapon in the SM arsenal but we've skipped right over that for some reason. Then there's the special rule with it's patented GW "restriction" that isn't.

Yeah, regardless of what they end up costing, this is the thing that really rankles with me – it's the hamfisted introduction of something that's just outright better than anything from ~30 years of established lore, and just adds to the bad fanfiction vibe I get from the entire Primaris project.

Ice_can wrote:

Kitane wrote:
If these Eradicators are around 120 per leaks, then they will erase their weight in points of Nid monsters in every shooting phase.

It really seems that the shooting twice ability is the thing that is an extra addition. They would be closely comparable to Shock Guard without it (similar stats, range, mobility), and that's the most point efficient anti-vehicle unit in the Nid codex.

It doesn't see much use only because the increased range and LoS ignore of Impalers is more practical.

The issue is 5PL does not equal 120 points when we already know units that are 115 points with no wargear options are 6PL.

That may be true, but we also have Hellblasters at 6PL, and they're 165 for their min squad of 5.

Points changed, power levels didn't...

Removed - Rule # 1 please

While I'm aware the Primaris Toothpaste just isn't going back in the tube now, and I've kind of reconciled myself to that, I just wish they'd exercise a little bit more restraint when introducing these units, rather than everything having to be BIGGER and AWESOMER than anything else.

 Nazrak wrote:
While I'm aware the Primaris Toothpaste just isn't going back in the tube now, and I've kind of reconciled myself to that, I just wish they'd exercise a little bit more restraint when introducing these units, rather than everything having to be BIGGER and AWESOMER than anything else.

OK, but if that was their intention why are Suppressors not seen in every list? How about incursors, infiltrators, reivers, flamestorm aggressors? There are as many, if not more, average to useless primaris units as there are decent ones.

I'm NOT saying Eliminators aren't too good - I suspect they are a bit - however the conspiracy fallacy that evil GW is doing this with a master plan in place doesn't hold water.

Playtesting and Balancing units is hard.

But when everyone who is not biased can see these are broken unis at first glance its clear both elements have failed.

I donlt know if Playtesters looked at the unit, were ignored or were just bad but this unit should not exisit in currents state - even the special rule woukld normally be a Stratagem.

Something failed if it wasn't intention.

Bug is something working non-intended. Feature working as intended

 ewar wrote:
I'm NOT saying Eliminators aren't too good - I suspect they are a bit - however the conspiracy fallacy that evil GW is doing this with a master plan in place doesn't hold water.

Oh I'm not suggesting any sort fo conspiracy – for the record I find that sort of thing pretty timesome – I think it's just a matter, certainly in this case, of riding roughshod over everything in the already established lore in their eagerness to make the new thing really attractive.

Tbh, I think I'd just be sort of low-level annoyed with these – on a similar level to how I feel about the other Primaris stuff – if it weren't for the extraneous "they can SHOOT TWICE because REASONS!" special rule tacked on the top of everything else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:
I donlt know if Playtesters looked at the unit, were ignored or were just bad but this unit should not exisit in currents state - even the special rule woukld normally be a Stratagem.

Yeah, I'm still sort of holding out hope that the rule turns out to actually be a stratagem and the Community article "forgot" to clarify this to stir up discussion.

 Talurit wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Kitane wrote:
If these Eradicators are around 120 per leaks, then they will erase their weight in points of Nid monsters in every shooting phase.

It really seems that the shooting twice ability is the thing that is an extra addition. They would be closely comparable to Shock Guard without it (similar stats, range, mobility), and that's the most point efficient anti-vehicle unit in the Nid codex.

It doesn't see much use only because the increased range and LoS ignore of Impalers is more practical.

The issue is 5PL does not equal 120 points when we already know units that are 115 points with no wargear options are 6PL.

That may be true, but we also have Hellblasters at 6PL, and they're 165 for their min squad of 5.

Points changed, power levels didn't...

That's not a great defencive argument, that's like saying it's okay this units is onder costed in PL, here is another unit in my army that is undercosted in PL.

It also matters as when reserves is costed per PL having each unit be 1 PL less than it should be gives you an unfair advantage.

 ewar wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
While I'm aware the Primaris Toothpaste just isn't going back in the tube now, and I've kind of reconciled myself to that, I just wish they'd exercise a little bit more restraint when introducing these units, rather than everything having to be BIGGER and AWESOMER than anything else.

OK, but if that was their intention why are Suppressors not seen in every list? How about incursors, infiltrators, reivers, flamestorm aggressors? There are as many, if not more, average to useless primaris units as there are decent ones.

I'm NOT saying Eliminators aren't too good - I suspect they are a bit - however the conspiracy fallacy that evil GW is doing this with a master plan in place doesn't hold water.

Most of those units you mention don't get used much because there are other Primaris units that are better. Incursors and Infiltrators, for example, are just worse Intercessors for the most part, as are Reivers despite not even being Troops. To be fair Reivers are pretty bad in general, but that's because they were one of the original Primaris units and GW doesn't seem to know how to make them effective. I suspect the new Assault Intercessors will supercede them barring a major change in rules. Suppressors seem to have seen a decent amount of play but they, and flamestorm Aggressors, are outshone by the dice buckets that are boltstorm Aggressors (why bother with tiresome Autocannons when you can just bolt-spam targets to death).

Removed - Rule # 1 please

 Mr Morden wrote:
Playtesting and Balancing units is hard.

But when everyone who is not biased can see these are broken unis at first glance its clear both elements have failed.

I donlt know if Playtesters looked at the unit, were ignored or were just bad but this unit should not exisit in currents state - even the special rule woukld normally be a Stratagem.

still of a mind that playtesters routinely get ignored if they go against dogma, and either can't speak out due to nda or fear of being excluded from the incrowd which given how poor vanilla yt income is i can sort of understand

the stratagem point is a good one folks rightly moaned about the cool tricks being locked behind them so theyve just bolted on a double tap without a points bump because double shoots if fine in non-xenos hands

 Turnip Jedi wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Playtesting and Balancing units is hard.

But when everyone who is not biased can see these are broken unis at first glance its clear both elements have failed.

I donlt know if Playtesters looked at the unit, were ignored or were just bad but this unit should not exisit in currents state - even the special rule woukld normally be a Stratagem.

still of a mind that playtesters routinely get ignored if they go against dogma, and either can't speak out due to nda or fear of not being excluded from the incrowd

the stratagem point is a good one folks rightly moaned about the cool tricks being locked behind them so theyve just bolted on a double tap without a points bump because double shoots if fine in non-xenos hands

Yeah I have been on the other side and a playesters for another much smaller system.

Sometimes you miss stuff, sometimes your feedback is disputed or ignored and sometimes it considered to late to change stuff.

Ice_can wrote:

 Talurit wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Kitane wrote:
If these Eradicators are around 120 per leaks, then they will erase their weight in points of Nid monsters in every shooting phase.

It really seems that the shooting twice ability is the thing that is an extra addition. They would be closely comparable to Shock Guard without it (similar stats, range, mobility), and that's the most point efficient anti-vehicle unit in the Nid codex.

It doesn't see much use only because the increased range and LoS ignore of Impalers is more practical.

The issue is 5PL does not equal 120 points when we already know units that are 115 points with no wargear options are 6PL.

That may be true, but we also have Hellblasters at 6PL, and they're 165 for their min squad of 5.

Points changed, power levels didn't...

That's not a great defencive argument, that's like saying it's okay this units is onder costed in PL, here is another unit in my army that is undercosted in PL.

It also matters as when reserves is costed per PL having each unit be 1 PL less than it should be gives you an unfair advantage.

I'm not defending the Eradicators, I was genuinely interested on what people thought with a more solid points preview, considering the thought always ends up being "We don't know enough yet".

In this case, I was more pointing out how you keep comparing power to a certain points level, where its a true conversion in some cases, and an untrue conversion in others.

Even at 40 points each they are cheesy.

They guys cost 6 cultists or 2 intercessors thatd still very cheap for their statline abilities and damage output, especially with CM < rerolls.

Vrs the big bad boogy codex of Knight's who we all know are totally OP and unkillable.

These lads outside of melta get a 50% return in points vrs an armiger & 55% versus a Questorus knight.
Roll them within the Buff Aura and they hit 79% and 86% return in 1 round of shooting Outside of melta range.

In Melta Range vrs Armiger is 65% and then 100%, vrs Questor they get 70 and 110% returns thats bonkers.

Well,

A twin multimelta (as per the leaks), weapon only, no body, is 50 pts.

Now take that, make it assault, add a gravis primaris body, add run and shoot and cost it 40 pts.

Mind you all of this during the same release, not halfway down the powercreep lane. Simultaneous releases. Plain twin multimelta weapon with nobody to hold it, 50 pts. Eradicator, 40 pts.

There's only so much incompetence can justify.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Well,

A twin multimelta (as per the leaks), weapon only, no body, is 50 pts.

Now take that, make it assault, add a gravis primaris body, add run and shoot and cost it 40 pts.

Mind you all of this during the same release, not halfway down the powercreep lane. Simultaneous releases. Plain twin multimelta weapon with nobody to hold it, 50 pts. Eradicator, 40 pts.

There's only so much incompetence can justify.

It's only logical that a twin multi-melta costs more than an eradicator: it doesn't eat nor require as much maintenance

 Aenar wrote:
[quote=topaxygouroun i 789579 10848450 null
It's only logical that a twin multi-melta costs more than an eradicator: it doesn't eat nor require as much maintenance

MM on infantry is 20. Melta is 10. Fire Dragons probably sitting at 20 points total.

Interestingly weapons on vehicles are paying a premium for being able to shoot into combat, which is why the twin is 50.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Aenar wrote:
[quote=topaxygouroun i 789579 10848450 null
It's only logical that a twin multi-melta costs more than an eradicator: it doesn't eat nor require as much maintenance

MM on infantry is 20. Melta is 10. Fire Dragons probably sitting at 20 points total.

Interestingly weapons on vehicles are paying a premium for being able to shoot into combat, which is why the twin is 50.

Given that the melta rifle is Assault it's much closer to the vehicle cost for a MM as it doesn't take the -1 for moving and shooting. So the comparison with the twin melta is valid...and pretty damning as far as balance goes.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Aenar wrote:
[quote=topaxygouroun i 789579 10848450 null
It's only logical that a twin multi-melta costs more than an eradicator: it doesn't eat nor require as much maintenance

MM on infantry is 20. Melta is 10. Fire Dragons probably sitting at 20 points total.

Interestingly weapons on vehicles are paying a premium for being able to shoot into combat, which is why the twin is 50.

Even with infantry MM being at 20 pts, total eradication obliteration makes it so that the body of the Eradicator and the gravis ability are free. In fact more than free, since the melta rifle is also assault on top of all.

I struggle to believe GW really did not see this during the testing phase.

Slipspace wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Aenar wrote:
[quote=topaxygouroun i 789579 10848450 null
It's only logical that a twin multi-melta costs more than an eradicator: it doesn't eat nor require as much maintenance

MM on infantry is 20. Melta is 10. Fire Dragons probably sitting at 20 points total.

Interestingly weapons on vehicles are paying a premium for being able to shoot into combat, which is why the twin is 50.

Given that the melta rifle is Assault it's much closer to the vehicle cost for a MM as it doesn't take the -1 for moving and shooting. So the comparison with the twin melta is valid...and pretty damning as far as balance goes.

This . It ain't looking too pretty as of yet.

What is the most funny thing tho, is how every reveal or leak so far has pointed out how fracked up horde armies are, how everything will melt hordes and how it's the time to bring the monsters, and then GW casually brings out eradicators.

While I'm aware the Primaris Toothpaste just isn't going back in the tube now, and I've kind of reconciled myself to that, I just wish they'd exercise a little bit more restraint when introducing these units, rather than everything having to be BIGGER and AWESOMER and MOAR PLAYTESTED! than anything else.

Fixed that for you.

Yeah, I'm still sort of holding out hope that the rule turns out to actually be a stratagem and the Community article "forgot" to clarify this to stir up discussion.

Yeah, jokes aside, I thought this exact same thing. It wouldn't be the first time a Community article made a mistake and accidentally changed how a unit appears to work. Fingers crossed ...

If it turned out to be a strat, what would you expect it to cost. I feel like 2CP is a good starting point.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
What is the most funny thing tho, is how every reveal or leak so far has pointed out how fracked up horde armies are, how everything will melt hordes and how it's the time to bring the monsters, and then GW casually brings out eradicators.

That's because people like to try and claim every slight to a unit as some sales strategy. If the points are real - the Whirlwind went to 125/135 up from ~90.

Its also really weird how they're showing 40 points and a PL5 unit. Something just doesn't jive.

I haven't had any conversation with you prior to you dropping this friendly comment:

Nitro Zeus wrote:

I got this far.


Just a tip, you should open with a strong point to draw people in.



When you open with a complete fabrication, anyone with any sort of knowledge or history in the game knows to just ignore the rest of it.

Just a tip, you could learn some manners.

Nitro Zeus wrote:
Seriously guys, is it too much to ask that we just take a minute out to actually read the posts we are responding to, before blowing up like this? Those personal attacks from you look extra embarrassing now.

My assertion is that vanilla marines have been average to underwhelming since at least 6th edition, before then I can't really recall so I can't comment, I was mostly playing Eldar. They had brief spikes for Gladius (short lived in 7th) and Bobby G deathball at the start of 8th (mentioned in my post). You seem to be telling everyone that Marines have been competitive throughout editions which is why you called my comment a 'fabrication' (when you meant of course, a differing of opinion).

Is this a fair summation?

Nitro Zeus wrote:
And with this in mind, if this part turns out to be true, is there really any doubt left as to what GW is doing here?

Yes, there is plenty of doubt cf Hanlon's razor.