40k Balance Datasheet - Q1 2023

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**JNAProductions**

EviscerationPlague wrote:
xttz wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
DeadliestIdiot wrote:
Y'all are thinking about this wrong. If you're using points in a crusade and you want to change your weapons loadout

Your argument of "I can list tailor" isn't as strong a point as you'd like to think it is.

That example is the opposite though. The unit voluntarily starts out with a sub-optimal choice then swaps to a better one as a reward for successfully completing an objective.

If they were list tailoring they'd just pick the better weapons on day one and have no reason to do narrative changes like that.

Sooooo why didn't they just start with the better weapon to begin with? Either you just start with the best weapon or what is described here is attempting to list tailor.

DeadliestIdiot wrote:
Y'all are thinking about this wrong. If you're using points in a crusade and you want to change your weapons loadout (and everything isn't free in the points system; I too am disappointed by that trend), you have a narrow selection of changes you can make (unless you implement some method of doing it yourself, WHICH IS A TOTALLY LEGIT OPTION). With PL, you don't have those constraints.

Example situation: Your imperium crusade force wins a battle where the goal was to secure a cache of archeotech. You want to reflect this in your list. In a points system where plasma weapons cost more than what you currently have you can't do that unless you have spare points in your crusade force (which you can purchase with a requisition point, but it also costs a requisition point to change your loadout). It also could change what you are able to take into battle (you don't always take your entire crusade force into battle). Under power levels, you don't have this issue.

To be crystal clear, I'm not saying PL or points encourages narrative play, only that power level gives you more freedom to play with the narrative. PL is far easier to make an overpowered list than points because it's less restrictive. If you're group can't help but min/max everything, making modifications to the system to use points in crusade is probably the way to go. It's hard to break that mindset (it's something I'm struggling with in trying to tailor my crusade list plans and why I'm playing a test game with a crusade force). Personally, I'm a little excited by the challenge of letting go and embracing the narrative. We'll see how that goes after my tanks start accruing battle scars

I think you missed part of the post.

The point of going from Grenade Launchers to Plasma Guns when they do isn't a decision based on gameplay. It's a decision based on the narrative-the Guard start off with very basic gear, and then when they achieve their first mission of getting a cache of old tech, they get upgraded weapons.

It's part of the narrative-which is related to, but not the same, as the gameplay.

**DeadliestIdiot**

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Sooooo why didn't they just start with the better weapon to begin with? Either you just start with the best weapon or what is described here is attempting to list tailor.

Presumably fluff reasons, my fine dakkanaut! Maybe the crusade force starts as the remains of a defeated force that's had to abandon their heavy weapons in the rush to disengage. Maybe the force is starting off as irregulars with bare minimum equipment and in the process of the crusade the army is forged into veteran soldiers with proper gear. The possibilities abound.

During the early parts of the crusade, battles will probably be an uphill fight that the army will struggle to win, but that fits perfectly with the fluff examples I gave above. And you get one or two requisition points after every battle, so it's going to take quite a few battles to upgrade your entire force even if you spend all your requisition on rearming units.

Personally, I'm dipping my toes into this idea rather than diving in the deep end with what I described above. My guard crusade force is an elite armored regiment with a non-elite infantry regiment. The force is on the far side of the rift, so is struggling with moral issues (which is something that can be represented in the guard crusade rules). I suspect I might need to tone down the tanks though (and I might take the plasma away from my infantry just for funsies), but that's what test games are for.

**Aecus Decimus**

DeadliestIdiot wrote:
Y'all are thinking about this wrong. If you're using points in a crusade and you want to change your weapons loadout (and everything isn't free in the points system; I too am disappointed by that trend), you have a narrow selection of changes you can make (unless you implement some method of doing it yourself, WHICH IS A TOTALLY LEGIT OPTION). With PL, you don't have those constraints.

Only if you look at a single unit in isolation. What about the case where you want to exchange a Basilisk for a LRBT? In a normal points game you have all kinds of small adjustments you can make to fit the more expensive unit. If you're 5 points over the limit you can drop a plasma gun down to a grenade launcher or remove a power sword or whatever. But if you're at 51 out of 50 points in a PL game it's very hard to make changes because you can only add or remove entire units. And usually those units cost at least 2-3 points each, so now you're juggling a bunch of changes trying to find some combination of units that works. If you end up at 49 out of 50 points you're probably stuck playing without a full list because there aren't any 1 point units to include, and even at 48 points you'd only be able to take a handful of 2-point support characters that may or may not do anything useful for your army. PL only works if you're willing and able to write all of your 25/50/100 point lists up front, carefully plan your roster changes to accommodate them, and commit to never deviating from that script. And even for a one-shot PL game it's usually going to take longer to build a list vs. playing with the standard point system.

**DeadliestIdiot**

Aecus Decimus wrote:
DeadliestIdiot wrote:
Y'all are thinking about this wrong. If you're using points in a crusade and you want to change your weapons loadout (and everything isn't free in the points system; I too am disappointed by that trend), you have a narrow selection of changes you can make (unless you implement some method of doing it yourself, WHICH IS A TOTALLY LEGIT OPTION). With PL, you don't have those constraints.

Only if you look at a single unit in isolation. What about the case where you want to exchange a Basilisk for a LRBT? In a normal points game you have all kinds of small adjustments you can make to fit the more expensive unit. If you're 5 points over the limit you can drop a plasma gun down to a grenade launcher or remove a power sword or whatever. But if you're at 51 out of 50 points in a PL game it's very hard to make changes because you can only add or remove entire units. And usually those units cost at least 2-3 points each, so now you're juggling a bunch of changes trying to find some combination of units that works. If you end up at 49 out of 50 points you're probably stuck playing without a full list because there aren't any 1 point units to include, and even at 48 points you'd only be able to take a handful of 2-point support characters that may or may not do anything useful for your army. PL only works if you're willing and able to write all of your 25/50/100 point lists up front, carefully plan your roster changes to accommodate them, and commit to never deviating from that script. And even for a one-shot PL game it's usually going to take longer to build a list vs. playing with the standard point system.

For the record, there are actually things that cost 1 PL (e.g., tank aces), although I don't know how widespread 1 PL options are. Either way though, I think you're being to restrictive in your evaluation here. So what if you're down by a PL? If you're really concerned about, talk with your opponent. Maybe the PL level of the battle can be adjusted by one.

(And for funsies, I'd suggest dropping the basilisk and an infantry squad or some other 3 PL unit to pick up the russ and a tank ace if you want to keep the PL the same)

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And at the end of the day, maybe it turns out you won't be able to make that swap in an acceptable way, it's no different from points in that regard

**Aecus Decimus**

DeadliestIdiot wrote:
So what if you're down by a PL? If you're really concerned about, talk with your opponent. Maybe the PL level of the battle can be adjusted by one.

Now you've completely undermined your argument for PL. Aside from the fact that asking your opponent to play a 49 point game instead of the standard 50 point game their list and Crusade roster are designed for, probably making them do some awkward juggling to meet the new limit, your whole premise was that moving from grenade launchers to plasma guns is a problem because your list no longer fits within the point limit. If you're willing to ignore the point limit and say "close enough" in a PL game you can do the same with your new plasma unit and just play a few points over the limit. It's no longer PL that is helping you, it's your decision to treat point limits as a rough guideline instead of an absolute limit regardless of which point system you use.

And at the end of the day, maybe it turns out you won't be able to make that swap in an acceptable way, it's no different from points in that regard

It's very different, and that was my entire point! When the minimum step size is 20 points vs. 1 point and the typical step size is 40-60+ points vs. 5 points you're going to have way more cases where you can't make all the pieces fit together properly. And it's an even bigger problem if you're playing by WYSIWYG, since now you have to replace entire units instead of 1-2 models from a unit and those cheap 2-3 point filler units may not even exist in your collection.

**DeadliestIdiot**

Aecus Decimus wrote:
DeadliestIdiot wrote:
So what if you're down by a PL? If you're really concerned about, talk with your opponent. Maybe the PL level of the battle can be adjusted by one.

Now you've completely undermined your argument for PL. Aside from the fact that asking your opponent to play a 49 point game instead of the standard 50 point game their list and Crusade roster are designed for, probably making them do some awkward juggling to meet the new limit, your whole premise was that moving from grenade launchers to plasma guns is a problem because your list no longer fits within the point limit. If you're willing to ignore the point limit and say "close enough" in a PL game you can do the same with your new plasma unit and just play a few points over the limit. It's no longer PL that is helping you, it's your decision to treat point limits as a rough guideline instead of an absolute limit regardless of which point system you use.

And at the end of the day, maybe it turns out you won't be able to make that swap in an acceptable way, it's no different from points in that regard

It's very different, and that was my entire point! When the minimum step size is 20 points vs. 1 point and the typical step size is 40-60+ points vs. 5 points you're going to have way more cases where you can't make all the pieces fit together properly. And it's an even bigger problem if you're playing by WYSIWYG, since now you have to replace entire units instead of 1-2 models from a unit and those cheap 2-3 point filler units may not even exist in your collection.

Have I completely undermined it? Oh dear.

If you want to constantly churn units your force isn't going to progress very well (if that's what you want, great!). You can swap units if you want, but they lose their experience, battle honors, and battle scars when you do so. I know guard have a requisition for swapping vehicles and keeping the experience and battle honors, but I don't know if that's unique to guard or very common. From what I've gathered though, you're more likely to swap out wargear than an entire unit. Sure there'll be cases where things break down in the crusade force PL costs (those 1 PL tank aces are a key place I see trouble since they also cost requisition), but I feel like those aren't as common as the places points will break down for crusade force costs.

At the end of the day, if you don't want to use PL, don't use PL. Just don't judge others for seeing that there are certain situations where it has useful properties.