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Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Well I wish someone would have told me my mark was so good vs DG being able to deny my charge and fight first abilities and/or Tsons spamming MWs all over my, basically, defenseless units.

Ok, which of those has anything to do with the relative ability of the mark of slaanesh against the other 3 regards internal balance?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Insularum wrote:
"Traditional" squad of 4 fists and a power weapon leader, 165 for imperials, 200 for chaos. Seems like the baddies are costed around taking black run of damnation.

Except for the fact that Chaos Terminator Squads can't bring 4 Fists in a squad because... *eye twitches* ... there aren't four fists on the sprue.

3 regulars and 1 chainfist though - but yeah

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And now WarCom presents a story in three parts:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Whoops!

(I post this here as WarCom has a tendency to quickly go back and edit areas where they're clearly wrong.)

Indeed, another case when either WarCom lied or GW needs to immediately errata their errata

 ikeulhu wrote:

Indeed, another case when either WarCom lied or GW needs to immediately errata their errata

They admitted to their mistake on Facebook.

votann went up almost across the board again... is the hekaton really worth 310 points?

Genestealer Cult Neophytes no longer have to pay for special weapons - so webbers are suddenly good, expect to see a lot more of them.

But it goes to show how you need points for internal balance, because webbers are good as they used to be expensive, flamers are still useful utility, but now grenade launchers in the hands of BS4 troops are completely crap, and you can't change their statline without breaking them for Guard (or having two different types of grenade launchers with different stats please no). Atalan Jackals with power weapons now seem quite a viable glass cannon?

Patriarch needed a buff it didn't get. Aberrants and the Abominant basically get their inexplicable price hike undone which is good but still doesn't explain why it happened in the first place.

Brood Brothers can't take any new guard toys, even the artillery. Bizarre, basically seems like the only reason you'd take them now is for a Baneblade if you need a superheavy in a big game.

Edit: Oh, saws are back down to 5 points, so... they're an autotake again?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Agusto wrote:
Besides some free weapons and gear, where are the massive points drops to compensate for SM losing AoC?

Hammerfall Bunkers went down a lot and are now the SM meta.

I don't think I'm kidding tbh. They went from nearly useless to pretty good.

 The Phazer wrote:
Brood Brothers can't take any new guard toys, even the artillery. Bizarre, basically seems like the only reason you'd take them now is for a Baneblade if you need a superheavy in a big game.

Spoiler warning for future - Brood Brothers are 100% not going to exist. They will almost certainly be removed in 10th.

 The Phazer wrote:

Brood Brothers can't take any new guard toys, even the artillery. Bizarre, basically seems like the only reason you'd take them now is for a Baneblade if you need a superheavy in a big game.

Where are you getting that?

Ahhh an FAQ dropped, didn't spot that on the post.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
votann went up almost across the board again... is the hekaton really worth 310 points?

Was discussing this with a mate of mine; some things need to go down but nothing needs to go up. If anything they need a couple of entries in the Balance sheet, such as the Forge Master's ability affecting the first failed save, not one of your choice.

 Nevelon wrote:
Not being forced to advance doctrines is also nice. Devastator chapters probably doing a happy dance over that.

Not if they're paying attention. Expect that change to vanish like AoC did.

Agusto wrote:Did a quick count on my Dark Angels list and I think that the list went down about 120p with "free" gear. For some reason, my Veterans still has to pay full price for everything. Will do a proper sit-down and re-do my math, but I would rather have AoC than free gear tbh.

Not going to lie, the Veteran unit entry hits me like a red flag. One that basically reads 'unit not appearing in next codex'


A lot of these unit costs seem random and poorly thought out (though I get that tacs are the 'same' base cost because weapons got warped in). Some of them I can't figure out at all (most 'basic' marines went to 18, but reivers are 16 and infiltrators are 20 and assault intercessors 17, because... something. Death company intercessors are 18, but death company marines are 20... without jump packs).


I am amused that only veterans and predators are penalized for taking lascannons. That basically sums up how I feel about this new style of doing points- free is stupid and paying for gear now feels like an arbitrary punishment for making a 'wrong choice' (in the eyes of the developers)

I’d be very surprised to see Brood Brothers going away. It’s been a key part of GSC since their original WD army list.

They might be reduced to basic infamy or the odd LR only.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
votann went up almost across the board again... is the hekaton really worth 310 points?

Well, how good of a unit is it compared to a monolith? That was 300 points, now 270.

 Souleater wrote:
I’d be very surprised to see Brood Brothers going away. It’s been a key part of GSC since their original WD army list.

They might be reduced to basic infamy or the odd LR only.

I'd wager them being rolled back into the book again to prevent weird interactions like we've been seeing. GSC don't have enough really imo to their book without the brood brothers padding them out a little. Yes, I know other factions have it worse.

Mostly stuff that annoy me, but at least the Hammerfall Bunker went from 175 to 100 points.

Might actually start using mine now...

Dudeface wrote:

 Souleater wrote:
I’d be very surprised to see Brood Brothers going away. It’s been a key part of GSC since their original WD army list.

They might be reduced to basic infamy or the odd LR only.

I'd wager them being rolled back into the book again to prevent weird interactions like we've been seeing. GSC don't have enough really imo to their book without the brood brothers padding them out a little. Yes, I know other factions have it worse.

Yeah, other factions have it worse, but Brood Brothers in some form are baked into the army at the conceptual level and are written with the idea they'll be included. I too see them being rolled back into the book itself.

Voss wrote:

Agusto wrote:Did a quick count on my Dark Angels list and I think that the list went down about 120p with "free" gear. For some reason, my Veterans still has to pay full price for everything. Will do a proper sit-down and re-do my math, but I would rather have AoC than free gear tbh.

Not going to lie, the Veteran unit entry hits me like a red flag. One that basically reads 'unit not appearing in next codex'

I'm fairly sure the problem with the Veterans entry is the unit can literally be only 2 models, so it's more difficult to bake the cost of upgrades into the minimum cost of the unit. It's odd that they're still paying full price for everything, though. I'd have expected some discounts on the more expensive upgrades.

Where is the Kratos? No change to it?

Dudeface wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Well I wish someone would have told me my mark was so good vs DG being able to deny my charge and fight first abilities and/or Tsons spamming MWs all over my, basically, defenseless units.

Ok, which of those has anything to do with the relative ability of the mark of slaanesh against the other 3 regards internal balance?

I'm not sure what you are asking about. I am pointing out that compared to other marked units noise marines don't fare that well. DG get extra toughness and FNP they have a model that negates charges and makes an enemy unit fight last all with a 6" radius. Tsons just sit back with their multitude of psykers and MWs noise marines to death while also being, for all practicle matters, immune to deny the witch rolls and basically nullify any psyker(s) that I can bring to the table. I can't say anything about World Eaters since I haven't faced them.

In regards to the marks as they pertain to units in the Codex, it seems to me, that the Mark of Nurgle is what you would want for most HQs since it means that your models last longer via the -1 to wound. I would think that that would be more valuable over the course of the game as opposed to being able to fight first in melee (Mk of Slaanesh). Obviously your model has to be able to get to the opponent before he can fight. And even then if you got the charge off then you will still be fighting first. So, overall, I just don't see the justification of the MoS being more valuable than say the MoN.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Where is the Kratos? No change to it?

Didn't find it either. GW probably forgot about it's existence in 40k.

It's a non-Primaris vehicle though, so I doubt it will change in any way shape or form. Ignore the fact that Wargear was already included...

"I am amused that only veterans and predators are penalized for taking lascannons". Guess who plays with expensive Vets and a Predator Annihilator with extra Lascannon sponsons... At least the sponsons became cheaper.
Did my math again. In total 165p cheaper list. So admit I was a bit off. Still, yes, I get sticky objectives and can stay in Doctrine, but I would much, much rather have an army wide +1 to save over the extra unit I now can afford.

Dudeface wrote:

 Souleater wrote:
I’d be very surprised to see Brood Brothers going away. It’s been a key part of GSC since their original WD army list.

They might be reduced to basic infamy or the odd LR only.

I'd wager them being rolled back into the book again to prevent weird interactions like we've been seeing. GSC don't have enough really imo to their book without the brood brothers padding them out a little. Yes, I know other factions have it worse.

Clarified in the FAQ for now at least. They can still take IG stuff if it is regimental, but not if it is from a named regiment (e.g. Cadian), named character, or "external" Imperium like preachers, advisors, or (I assume) scions or Valkyries. For some reason they can't also take the new ordnance batteries; apparently a PDF couldn't get these, but it could get a Baneblade.

Voss wrote:

Not going to lie, the Veteran unit entry hits me like a red flag. One that basically reads 'unit not appearing in next codex'

Almost certainly going to get replaced with a Primaris version if the rumours that the DA are getting the next set of Primaris upgrades are true.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Well I wish someone would have told me my mark was so good vs DG being able to deny my charge and fight first abilities and/or Tsons spamming MWs all over my, basically, defenseless units.

Ok, which of those has anything to do with the relative ability of the mark of slaanesh against the other 3 regards internal balance?

I'm not sure what you are asking about. I am pointing out that compared to other marked units noise marines don't fare that well. DG get extra toughness and FNP they have a model that negates charges and makes an enemy unit fight last all with a 6" radius. Tsons just sit back with their multitude of psykers and MWs noise marines to death while also being, for all practicle matters, immune to deny the witch rolls and basically nullify any psyker(s) that I can bring to the table. I can't say anything about World Eaters since I haven't faced them.

In regards to the marks as they pertain to units in the Codex, it seems to me, that the Mark of Nurgle is what you would want for most HQs since it means that your models last longer via the -1 to wound. I would think that that would be more valuable over the course of the game as opposed to being able to fight first in melee (Mk of Slaanesh). Obviously your model has to be able to get to the opponent before he can fight. And even then if you got the charge off then you will still be fighting first. So, overall, I just don't see the justification of the MoS being more valuable than say the MoN.

As a standalone Mark, MoS is the best of the 4, especially in an army that's generally melee focussed. MoS also unlocks some really good strats. It probably deserves to be the most expensive Mark. Striking first is a massive boost to any close combat unit and it also pairs well with Delightful Agonies and the Advance and charge prayer your MoP and DA get for being Slaanesh.

I do somewhat agree on the Plague Marine/Noise Marine comparison. PM get loads of free kit and really good defensive buffs. Noise Marines get an offensive buff that's good, but not too easy for them to take advantage of, and the excellent Blastmaster. I feel like they should probably have reduced the cost of Sonic Blasters, as nobody takes them at all right now, and they're supposed to be the iconic weapon of the unit. It's kind of weird seeing Noise Marines as weird semi-Devastator units.

Sternguard get free combi weapons, but Company Vets pay 10 pts? Strange...

I am ultimately not against upgrades being free, but that now needs to be the model going forward. I have 3 Death Shrouds and every single one has different setup because they keep changing the datasheet. I have one sergeant with two flamers and a chime, I have one sergeant with two flamers, and I have one sergeant with one flamer. On the brightside the one with one flamer is now officially demoted.

Ultimately the problem is that upgrades can at best cost around 5-10% of the model cost. As soon as it goes above that the weapons start to matter less and you want more bodies on the floor most of the time. They seem to have learned that the hard way with Space Marines.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Well I wish someone would have told me my mark was so good vs DG being able to deny my charge and fight first abilities and/or Tsons spamming MWs all over my, basically, defenseless units.

Ok, which of those has anything to do with the relative ability of the mark of slaanesh against the other 3 regards internal balance?

I'm not sure what you are asking about. I am pointing out that compared to other marked units noise marines don't fare that well. DG get extra toughness and FNP they have a model that negates charges and makes an enemy unit fight last all with a 6" radius. Tsons just sit back with their multitude of psykers and MWs noise marines to death while also being, for all practicle matters, immune to deny the witch rolls and basically nullify any psyker(s) that I can bring to the table. I can't say anything about World Eaters since I haven't faced them.

In regards to the marks as they pertain to units in the Codex, it seems to me, that the Mark of Nurgle is what you would want for most HQs since it means that your models last longer via the -1 to wound. I would think that that would be more valuable over the course of the game as opposed to being able to fight first in melee (Mk of Slaanesh). Obviously your model has to be able to get to the opponent before he can fight. And even then if you got the charge off then you will still be fighting first. So, overall, I just don't see the justification of the MoS being more valuable than say the MoN.

- You didn't mention noise marines, you talked about terminators
- MoS is best for many units in the book and can be applied to a lot of deadly melee units
- Plague marines don't get a FNP
- You can't compare a single upgrade to an entire buff character
- Tsons are priced to encompass their abilities (in theory) and are not immune to deny the witch
- Characters don't benefit from MoN unless they've been targeted as well which is in reality most likely melee
- If you are charged or the combat extends beyond 1 round, the MoS allows you to force decisions and interact with the fight phase better

 Platuan4th wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Souleater wrote:
I’d be very surprised to see Brood Brothers going away. It’s been a key part of GSC since their original WD army list.

They might be reduced to basic infamy or the odd LR only.

I'd wager them being rolled back into the book again to prevent weird interactions like we've been seeing. GSC don't have enough really imo to their book without the brood brothers padding them out a little. Yes, I know other factions have it worse.

Yeah, other factions have it worse, but Brood Brothers in some form are baked into the army at the conceptual level and are written with the idea they'll be included. I too see them being rolled back into the book itself.

With the keyword and detachment system firmly in place, they could do something like a 'lost and the damned' codex where you have all sorts of multi-purpose stuff like PDF units, traitor guard, corrupted governor w/retinue, mutant rabble and so on, with the option to pick the matching keywords to make that part of a chaos cult uprising, genestealer thralls and so on. In that way you'd at least have all the rules for the allied forces in one place, and would need a maximum of two books for any combination of LotD detachment and main army detachment. Otherwise you'll always have weird interactions like having to use an OOP codex or being arbitrarily limited in equipment choices and so on, or needing mountains of Q&A.

Possibly overstating it, but triple Gladiator Lancers could be interesting at just 125 points a model. Sure, don't really synergise with much (basically always the issue of Marine tanks), but 125 points for 12 T8 3+ wounds, and 2 S10 dark lances (with +1 to hit), potentially 12 S4 shots and a slightly odd autocannon seems kind of reasonable.

Meanwhile 30 point aggressors also feels... aggressively cheap.

 xttz wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Big oof to Harlequins, I feel bad for the guys, that's a pretty damn big nerf.

While I don't mind the significant price cut for Flash Gitz, I feel like the point changes to Nobz squad weapons really won't do much. Also weird that they made Painboyz cheaper but not the Painboss or Nob with WAAAGH! Banner? I guess people will be taking more Killa Kanz in some lists.

There's some lowkey changes to LOWs here I'm pumped for. 'orkanaut points dropped by 10%, as well as several FW units. Combined with the new detachment rules that let you take 1-3 LOWs without a CP cost and they benefit from faction traits, we might actually see them on the tabletop more often.

Same applies to World Eaters too, things like the Brass Scorpion & Kytan got cheaper.

Best keep it lowkey because this doesn't change how useless the Orkanauts are. dropping 35pts on a 350pt model isn't going to make them better. And the fact is that a single -1 to hit renders the Morkanaut functionally useless. By which I mean, it has a better chance to hurt itself than the enemy with its main gun. Realistically the Orkanauts need to drop another 50-70pts before they are even remotely competitive and even then you would have to bake a rule into them that makes them ignore - to hit modifiers otherwise their guns are garbage. The Stompa is at least 200pts over priced still, but don't worry GW realized their mistake and dropped the Kustom stompa which was 25pts MORE than the regular stompa to....*Checks notes* The same price as the Stompa....

Agusto wrote:
Besides some free weapons and gear, where are the massive points drops to compensate for SM losing AoC?

I love the mindset of Marine Players. Besides getting hundreds of points for free in upgrades and units becoming cheaper almost across the board....what other compensation do I get for losing a crap rule that was Crap from the start?

A Lascannon Devastator squad just went from 155pts to 115 AND you can now equip the Sgt with a Thunder Hammer or other weapons for FREE. So literally another 20pts of free upgrades.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Where is the Kratos? No change to it?

Stuff not listed is free