Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Munitorum Field Manual 2023

Q1 2023 Balance Datasheet


Looks like Flamers lost the auto-hit, not the "sky is falling nerfed into oblivion" I've seen some players bitching about.

Chapter Tactics is now the old version, meaning you can stay in Dev or Tactical as long as you want now.

AdMec Bionics up'ed to a 5++ Invuln, Kataphrons gain CORE.

Tyranids have to pay reinforcement points to seed Spore mines, but no longer require a Synapse creature to have LOS to the target so that e.g. a Biovore can fire at it indirectly.

Harlequins getting an armywide -1 to save is going to be brutal for them.

One step sideways, three steps back, as always.

I mean, it's clear that they understand how points should be used to balance things - they've given Boneswords and Deathspitters a cost now - but then they do and make all Marine squad upgrades (bar Thunder Hammers and Multi-Meltas) free.

A Lascannon shouldn't be free.

And they left the points on Warriors the same as they were after the last bump, which means that 2xScyTal Warriors are still grossly overpriced.

Seems Necrons didn't receive any significant changes.
Which is a pity, considering how the previous changes in the last balance update rendered Phylacterine Hive and Severed useless.

Ad Mech got an overall buff, which is nice.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
One step sideways, three steps back, as always.

I mean, it's clear that they understand how points should be used to balance things - they've given Boneswords and Deathspitters a cost now - but then they do and make all Marine squad upgrades (bar Thunder Hammers and Multi-Meltas) free.

A Lascannon shouldn't be free.

And they left the points on Warriors the same as they were after the last bump, which means that 2xScyTal Warriors are still grossly overpriced.

Hammers and meltas are free in most squads - just not the ones where they are most spammable.

Tac squad with all the meltas and hammer sergeant - flat 18ppm.

If you have to pay reinforcement points for Spore Mines, why didn't the costs of Biovores and Sporocysts go down? Surely their ability to generate spore mines was baked into their cost, no? They've lost utility. They've lost power. Shouldn't their cost therefore be reflective of that reduced power?

And how did Hive Guard, of all things, get an increase? This is GW still trying to "balance" a unit that was powerful in a different edition under a different Codex.

 Insularum wrote:
Tac squad with all the meltas and hammer sergeant - flat 18ppm.

Wonderful, but my point remains the same: None of it should be free!

I really wish they would mark what's new and what's not. It's pretty hard to tell what the changes actually are.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I really wish they would mark what's new and what's not. It's pretty hard to tell what the changes actually are.

They do. Points changes are a different color. The Balance sheet just removes anything old that's no longer relevant.

Big oof to Harlequins, I feel bad for the guys, that's a pretty damn big nerf.

While I don't mind the significant price cut for Flash Gitz, I feel like the point changes to Nobz squad weapons really won't do much. Also weird that they made Painboyz cheaper but not the Painboss or Nob with WAAAGH! Banner? I guess people will be taking more Killa Kanz in some lists.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Seems Necrons didn't receive any significant changes.
Which is a pity, considering how the previous changes in the last balance update rendered Phylacterine Hive and Severed useless.

Ad Mech got an overall buff, which is nice.

Early Necron predictions based on pretty much nothing but gut feeling: they're screwed. They have generally terrible datasheets and losing both the ObSekh Dynasty and their overpowered secondaries with no real compensation is going to be a major problem for them.

Free wargear for SM makes sense up to a point but I think they've gone too far now, especially on units like Deathwatch Veterans. I'd have preferred to see SM squads like Tacticals with "free" Heavy Bolter/Missile Launcher and Flamer, but other options as cheaper upgrades.

And now WarCom presents a story in three parts:




Whoops!

(I post this here as WarCom has a tendency to quickly go back and edit areas where they're clearly wrong.)

 Platuan4th wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I really wish they would mark what's new and what's not. It's pretty hard to tell what the changes actually are.

They do. Points changes are a different color. The Balance sheet just removes anything old that's no longer relevant.

Yeah, but the balance sheet also doesn't mark anything that's new.
If it weren't for the above post I wouldn't know about the changes to the Ad Mech.

That said, I was incorrect about the points sheet.
The new values are indeed in red and necrons did get some love after all.
DDA : 160 -> 145
Warriors : 13 -> 11
Monolith : 300 -> 270
Deathmarks : 15 -> 13
Triarch Stalker : 120 -> 110
Tomb Blades : 20 -> 18
Ghost Ark : 130->115
Praetortians : 22 -> 20
Obelisk : 300 -> 270

 Grimskul wrote:
Big oof to Harlequins, I feel bad for the guys, that's a pretty damn big nerf.

While I don't mind the significant price cut for Flash Gitz, I feel like the point changes to Nobz squad weapons really won't do much. Also weird that they made Painboyz cheaper but not the Painboss or Nob with WAAAGH! Banner? I guess people will be taking more Killa Kanz in some lists.

There's some lowkey changes to LOWs here I'm pumped for. 'orkanaut points dropped by 10%, as well as several FW units. Combined with the new detachment rules that let you take 1-3 LOWs without a CP cost and they benefit from faction traits, we might actually see them on the tabletop more often.

Same applies to World Eaters too, things like the Brass Scorpion & Kytan got cheaper.

Besides some free weapons and gear, where are the massive points drops to compensate for SM losing AoC?

Agusto wrote:
Besides some free weapons and gear, where are the massive points drops to compensate for SM losing AoC?

Weapon upgrades are now free. There's your compensation.

Agusto wrote:
Besides some free weapons and gear, where are the massive points drops to compensate for SM losing AoC?

They also gained sticky objectives as part of the payoff, which is really hard to equate a point cost too, but some people are saying their lists are 20-30% or so cheaper elsewhere.

Did a quick count on my Dark Angels list and I think that the list went down about 120p with "free" gear. For some reason, my Veterans still has to pay full price for everything. Will do a proper sit-down and re-do my math, but I would rather have AoC than free gear tbh.

Not being forced to advance doctrines is also nice. Devastator chapters probably doing a happy dance over that.

Agusto wrote:
For some reason, my Veterans still has to pay full price for everything.

So do Chaos Bikers and Raptors.

Chaosistency!

Agusto wrote:
Besides some free weapons and gear, where are the massive points drops to compensate for SM losing AoC?

Most characters are -10, most units are -2 per model and most gear is free.

Some lovely consistency across factions too..
Imperial SM terminators (tactical/assault/relic variants), 33ppm and free gear
Chaos SM terminators, 36ppm and all gear is unchanged in cost
"Traditional" squad of 4 fists and a power weapon leader, 165 for imperials, 200 for chaos. Seems like the baddies are costed around taking black run of damnation.

Most "primaris" characters are -10, most "primaris" units are -2 per model and most gear is free.

No bloody Ad-mech hobby babies in my DA list! Old school for ever!

Wonder if the free wargear is driven by them just realising tweaking stuff up/down by less than 5 points isn't worth it if they know someone will just take "the best" option anyway, so just point out the outliers, let the casual people do what they like and accept the meta people will just default to an option anyway and adding 3 points to their weapon X won't mean much in the long run.

Stems back to the thread in general really I suppose.

Just realized they removed the dataslate entries for Mirror Architect and Favour of Cegorach from the harlequins dataslate, so not everything is terrible. those unnerfed are very nice to have.

 xttz wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Big oof to Harlequins, I feel bad for the guys, that's a pretty damn big nerf.

While I don't mind the significant price cut for Flash Gitz, I feel like the point changes to Nobz squad weapons really won't do much. Also weird that they made Painboyz cheaper but not the Painboss or Nob with WAAAGH! Banner? I guess people will be taking more Killa Kanz in some lists.

There's some lowkey changes to LOWs here I'm pumped for. 'orkanaut points dropped by 10%, as well as several FW units. Combined with the new detachment rules that let you take 1-3 LOWs without a CP cost and they benefit from faction traits, we might actually see them on the tabletop more often.

Same applies to World Eaters too, things like the Brass Scorpion & Kytan got cheaper.

Now if they would just drop the Stompa and FW Lords of War to more reasonable points

 Insularum wrote:

Agusto wrote:
Besides some free weapons and gear, where are the massive points drops to compensate for SM losing AoC?

Most characters are -10, most units are -2 per model and most gear is free.

Some lovely consistency across factions too..
Imperial SM terminators (tactical/assault/relic variants), 33ppm and free gear
Chaos SM terminators, 36ppm and all gear is unchanged in cost
"Traditional" squad of 4 fists and a power weapon leader, 165 for imperials, 200 for chaos. Seems like the baddies are costed around taking black run of damnation.

Yeah, it's stupid. This is a classic case of a situation where points fixes aren't the answer. Chaos Terminators, in isolation, are fine. 33 points for a combi-bolter and accursed weapon is OK, even if Imperial ones are a bit better now, trading the accursed weapon for a PF. What pushes Chaos Terminators over the edge is the stacking of MoS (now more expensive, so fair enough), Illusory Supplication, Delightful Agonies and the Black Rune, maybe even Mutated Invigoration for good measure. The problem isn't the unit, it's the stacking buffs from multiple sources. I'm genuinely surprised the Dark Apostle didn't get a points increase. Looks like GW just threw their hands up and went "eh, 3ppm increase should be fine". Sucks if you want to try to experiment with not-meta Terminator combos. They even seem to have missed Obliterators being criminally overcosted. Like Hive Guard, I suspect they're paying for the sins of previous editions.

Necron characters continue to be insanely expensive and someone at GW must have played against Doomstalkers that were using loaded dice. It's the only explanation I can come up with for their cost.

 Insularum wrote:
Some lovely consistency across factions too..
Imperial SM terminators (tactical/assault/relic variants), 33ppm and free gear
Chaos SM terminators, 36ppm and all gear is unchanged in cost
"Traditional" squad of 4 fists and a power weapon leader, 165 for imperials, 200 for chaos. Seems like the baddies are costed around taking black run of damnation.

Except we already pay a CP for the rune so that's just pilinng on.

My EC army increased in cost by 55 points (3/Terminator x 10) plus 5 per mark 3 HQ and the Terminators. What did I gain out of either update? The loss of AoC. Can someone explain to me why the mark was increased in price? I just can't see any justification.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

 Insularum wrote:
Some lovely consistency across factions too..
Imperial SM terminators (tactical/assault/relic variants), 33ppm and free gear
Chaos SM terminators, 36ppm and all gear is unchanged in cost
"Traditional" squad of 4 fists and a power weapon leader, 165 for imperials, 200 for chaos. Seems like the baddies are costed around taking black run of damnation.

Except we already pay a CP for the rune so that's just pilinng on.

My EC army increased in cost by 55 points (3/Terminator x 10) plus 5 per mark 3 HQ and the Terminators. What did I gain out of either update? The loss of AoC. Can someone explain to me why the mark was increased in price? I just can't see any justification.

It was used too much by winning lists and/because it's arguably the "best" mark.

Well I wish someone would have told me my mark was so good vs DG being able to deny my charge and fight first abilities and/or Tsons spamming MWs all over my, basically, defenseless units.

 Insularum wrote:
"Traditional" squad of 4 fists and a power weapon leader, 165 for imperials, 200 for chaos. Seems like the baddies are costed around taking black run of damnation.

Except for the fact that Chaos Terminator Squads can't bring 4 Fists in a squad because... *eye twitches* ... there aren't four fists on the sprue.