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HQ

Librarian w/ Jump Pack - 125 pts Shield of Sanguinius, Unleash Rage

Librarian w/ Jump Pack - 125 pts Blood Lance, Unleash Rage



Troops

Scout Squad w/ 5X scouts, sniper rifles - 75 pts

Assault Squad w/ 10X marines, 2X Meltaguns, 1X Powerfist - 235

Assault Squad w/ 10X marines, 2X Meltaguns, 1X Powerfist - 235

Assault Squad w/ 10X marines, 2X Flamers, Powersword, Plasma Pistol - 200 pts

Assault Squad w/ 10X marines, 2X Flamers, Powersword, Plasma Pistol - 200 pts



Elites

Sanguinary Priest w/ Jump Pack - 75 pts

Sanguinary Priest w/ Jump Pack - 75 pts

Sanguinary Priest w/ Jump Pack - 75 pts



Fast Attack

Vanguard Veteran Squad w/ Jump Packs, Powerfist, Meltabomb - 210 pts

Vanguard Veteran Squad w/ Jump Packs, Powerfist, Meltabomb - 210 pts



Heavy Support

Devastator Squad w/ 4X Missile Launchers - 130 pts




Sorry to take up more space, but the thread below had run out of steam, and I really would like opinions on this particular tweak.


The plasma pistols and powerswords on the two flamer squad sergeants is because I stupidly modeled them that way. Should I just spend the extra bucks and replace them? I am aware that the priests should have power weapons. Oh, well.


Is the presence of a firebase that this worth it? Or should I just go without?


Thank you for your patience.

I'd drop the devs and scouts. All assault squads should have sergeants with power fist and infernus pistol. Also I run my assault squads with melta and flamer, works well with the infernus pistol. You can use the extra points from dropping devs and scouts for some other choppy elite unit... You could beef uP your VV with some stormshields and lightning claws for example.

So, not drop them just for another melta assault squad? What choppy elite did you have in mind?

And in capture and control, with what do I keep my own objective?

Here is how I like to run my VV:

Sargeant - thunderhammer & stormshield
Vets #1 - #3 - lightning claw & stormshield (x3)
Vet #4 - pair of lightning claws
Vet #5 - power sword & infernus pistol
Vet #6 - chainsword & bolt pistol

This would be a hard hitting assault unit that would help your list. They can suck up a lot of damage and dish it out too.

I can typically get an assault squad or two on top of objectives late in the game.

I'd go all melta with this army you have so little AT even with that. I'd dump the devastators and Scouts and get Dreads or Preds for more AT. I'd dump the plasma pistols to pay for it. Just cut the gun off the model and glue a bolt pistol there it really isn't tough to do.

I really wouldn't ever put power swords on the Priests you never want them in combat.

I would also try to cut it down to 2 priests

Actually you want the priests in combat swinging power swords. Just place them away from enemy models that have weapons that ignore armor saves. 4 S5 I5 WS5 attacks that ignore armor saves is too good to pass up. If you leave the priest unattached it will get shot off the board anyways.

I would also try to cut it down to 2 priests

Or if he wants 3 Preists for the coverage he can swap out a VGV squad for an Honour Guard squad and acheive much the same purpose.

That would again save him some points to spend on getting some AT into the list.

Then he can't use HI.

I'm aware of that, but even for BA HI is some what hit and miss particulartly considering he'll be throwing 420 points into it as is.

HI is not hit or miss. I use it often and it tends to work out around 9/10. It's a big advantage for jump BA.

HI is not hit or miss. I use it often and it tends to work out around 9/10. It's a big advantage for jump BA.

I know it is good but you are risking that 210 point unit on a scatter role. Scatter in one direction and you misshap scatter in the other and you're plasmacannon bait. I know good placement can greatly reduce the likeliness of these outcomes by having multiple potential targets but unless he plans on going ninja I don't really see the huge gain in VGV over Honour Guard.

considering they have to be within 6 inches to charge I'd call it hit or miss considering they can scatter 6 inches away/ on top of an enemy and mishap ... it's risky ...

Do you actually play a BA army? VV using HI is very popular and has been proven to work well.

I agree with BloodThirSTAR. BA VV using HI is too good to pass up. Especially if there is a priest nearby that can lend his bubble to use.

Do you actually play a BA army? VV using HI is very popular and has been proven to work well.

I'm well aware of this but personally I only like them in ninja lists as getting across the board using target saturation is for me the more effective game winning tactic.

That's what they are - the ultimate ninjas. : )

Alright. So, BloodThirSTAR, you suggest that I, instead of having specialized assault squads (melta or flamer), put one of each in every one?

As for not having enough AT, you suggest I go ALL melta, Flingitnow? That could lead to extremely unhappy times with horde armies.


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And no, I don't think multiple charging would be enough.

The plasma pistols are in no way worth the points. I'd clip them. FAR better ways to spend 15pts are a)camo cloaks for scouts, and b) power weapons for priests.

You've got the points listed wrong for those units, too. 200 is 10 AM w/2 flamers- you don't have the points listed for the plasma or sgts' power weapons.

Scouts go okay in the list; in camo cloaks and in cover, they're excellent objective campers.

The devs are out of place, but they're cheap. Not necessarily a bad choice.

As for not having enough AT, you suggest I go ALL melta, Flingitnow? That could lead to extremely unhappy times with horde armies.

Why? On the charge your assault squads should annihilate any horde unit they are up against the flamers don't really change that. Whilst yes being assaulted you are in trouble but again flamers won't help here.

Due to the total lack of AT present elsewhere in the list you need tri-melta in your assault squads. Then you are odds on to take down that tank when you shoot. Double melta gives you a good chance, single melta is a shot to nothing and not more than that. But to clarify BloodThirSTAR was saying duel melta as he was telling you to get melta from the Sergeant as well. Still giving 1 flamer to help with hordes.

Personally I always like to get to 3 meltas in a squad if possible (no matter army selection) that is the most efficient amount of melta for giving you a good chance of taking down that tank without spending too much on melta. Whilst 4 is good and 5 a practical guarantee in certain armies I would use these numbers (IG and Eldar) in most SM armies you often have better options in squads that can take that much melta.

Since you're already fielding two HQs, why not take advantage of the most point-effective drop/jump unit in the BA codex; the command squad? I'd recommend w/ 3 meltas (Fling is dead on about that number,) a hit point, and sanguinary novinate. I'd recommend fielding two of these at the cost of one of your troops; 3-6 scoring units should be enough at 2k.

Also... what are you going to do against dedicated hand to hand units? I know it's heaping points on an already outrageously expensive unit, but you might consider some storm shields for those vanguard vet units; this army plays within 12" of an opponent, which means you should probably have something that can stand up to TH/SS terms for a few turns- remember you don't always need to beat them, just keep their hardest units from rampaging between your assault squads. On the drop, use your command squads and the melta-laden portions of your assault squads to crack land-raiders, and SS equipped vanguards to lock up the contents so that your melta boys can move on to other, softer, targets.

Someone already mentioned that all of your assault squads need powerfists; you don't have combat tactics, so you need to give your guys a fighting chance against monstrous creatures and dreads.

In addition to the storm shields, I'd recommend taking at least one weapon in the vanguards that strikes at initiative. You need to keep the powerfists for the aforementioned reason, but, adding something like a glaive encarmine (that is fully effective with a storm shield, unlike a power sword,) to the vets would allow them to clear out some wound-causing units at init 5.

I know shelling out 400 pts for a unit that will loose the long-game against a squad of terminators is hard to stomach, but this list absolutely requires something to lock down big nasty threats so that you aren't loosing squads to counter charges.

I say cut the flamers. They do the same thing that chainswords do. Meltas do something that those units can't already do, and dual-purposing a unit is always the best bet for a tournament list.

If you go up against horde nids those meltas are worthless. Imagine a swarm of gaunt bubble wrapping lots of monstrous creatures. You can't reach the big nids and if you assault the gaunts you'll be counter charged by the MCs who'll rip right through your squads. FIN advocates the use of too many meltas in my opinion. You can't just rely upon cc to beat hordes.

Nephil1m wrote:

I say cut the flamers. They do the same thing that chainswords do. Meltas do something that those units can't already do, and dual-purposing a unit is always the best bet for a tournament list.

How is running double melta dual purpose?

Ah. Lots of conflicting opinions. Please keep discussion going about flamers or meltas. Good stuff.

As Nephil1m points out, serious assault units could eat assault marines for brekkist. What could deal with that problem?

My ideas:

1. Furioso Dreadnought, podding or flying.

2. Kitted out VVs.

3. Mass charge?

4. Not last and definitely not least, the Sanguinor. Think I could afford to replace a Libby with that monster?

5. Other dedicated assault units, like assault termies. I could stick them in a land raider, but then they would eat up A LOT of points. I could deep strike them, but they don't have doa


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And yeah, Mephiston is a beast and all, but I just don't like the model.

FIN's concept is that AMs supported by priests are already anti-infantry. Regular codex SM AMs aren't, but the additions of FNP & Furious Charge make the BA AMs strike harder and live longer. Personally, I think a few flamers can help, and krak grenades and/or S5 regular attacks are fine against most vehicles. A few power fists are great to have, but they don't need to be absolutely everywhere. But I gave you my list suggestions already.

Nephel1m has a good point that you need a plan for dealing with hard-as-nails assault units like TH&SS terminators, thunderwolves, or the like. Personally, I think one viable plan CAN be to avoid the suckers as much as possible. With the previous version of the list, having 5-10 scoring units running around (50 total AMs), IMO you could probably afford to let said uber assault hammer eat a couple of units, and still win the game while killing his other stuff.

FIN's concept is that AMs supported by priests are already anti-infantry. Regular codex SM AMs aren't, but the additions of FNP & Furious Charge make the BA AMs strike harder and live longer.

Exactly AMs with Priest in toe should nail any horde they hit, especially with unleleash rage around. Against WS4 T4 they will cause on average 15 wounds at I5 (ignoring power weapons and power fists), most hordes have 6+ saves and strike at S3 those that aren't killed in combat will be nailed by fearless wounds or combat res. The flamer does not make a difernce to this.

As for the example of the MC counter charge with Nids again I don't see how the flamer makes that situation different. By putting a flamer in the squad you are greatly reducing your ability to nail tanks and deal with Mech armies for no tangible benefit.

FIN, for context, remember that this sprang out of a discussion of fighting IG hordes; those guys have a 5+ rather than a 6+, and are Stubborn rather than Fearless, so are more durable than the Orks you're talking about.

Multiple flamers allow toasting units before or without charging, and are great against certain high-Init close combat units, like Genestealers, Eldar, and Dark Eldar.

Remember, too, that with S5 on the charge you can bust a lot of vehicles just because you hit their rear armor.

HQ

Librarian w/ Jump Pack, meltabombs - 130 pts Blood Lance, Unleash Rage

The Sanguinor - 275 pts



Troops

Assault Squad w/ 10X marines, 2X Meltaguns, 1X Powerfist - 235

Assault Squad w/ 10X marines, 2X Meltaguns, 1X Powerfist - 235

Assault Squad w/ 10X marines, 2X Meltaguns, 1X Powerfist - 235

Assault Squad w/ 10X marines, 2X Meltaguns, Powersword - 225 pts

Assault Squad w/ 10X marines, 2X Meltaguns, Powersword - 225 pts



Elites

Sanguinary Priest w/ Jump Pack, Powersword - 90 pts

Sanguinary Priest w/ Jump Pack, Powersword - 90 pts

Sanguinary Priest w/ Jump Pack - 75 pts



Fast Attack

Vanguard Veteran Squad w/ Jump Packs, Stormshield, Glaive Encarmine - 185



Here is closer to my original idea, but plus the Sanguinor. I replaced the flamers with melta weapons, but I didn't replace the swords with fists because I couldn't afford it (and I don't want to clip their whole lovely painted arms off.)

I put the Sanguinor in because 1. He is a cc monster 2. He makes the VV sarge a cc monster and 3. He makes all the marines around him a little more monstrous. (+1 attack, FNP, and Furious Charge make for happy fun times.) I also gave the VV sarge a stormshield because he doesn't get an extra attack anyway with the glaive, and it makes the minor character a little more survivable, and able to take on real baddies.

Whaddaya think? Enough AT? Too little anti infantry? Sanguinor a bad idea?

I like the last list except I think you aremissing the rock hard unit. In friendly games I think you are good but in big tournaments I think you are going to be outmatched a bit.

I would drop one of the assualt squads and really bone up the vanguard vets. 1 storm shield is never enough you need at least 4, So add thee models with only storm shields. You need at least 2 power weapons, so add one model wioth a power weapon, I would also add at least 1 fist if not 2.

You must randomly assign which sergeant gets the Sanguinor's blessing, you can't just freely assign it to the VV.

I like the inclusion of the Sanguinor, he will definitely buff your army. In my opinion he is the best choice of HQ for a DoA list. I can't keep track of how many times mine has killed stuff like thunderlords, Abbadon and even the Swarmlord. He's crazy good. You just have to move him carefully so he doesn't get shot down by mass small arms fire.

Why Blood Lance on the Librarian? It just seems like you are going too heavy on tank busting when this comes natural to a DoA list. I would upgrade him to an Epistolary and give him the Sanguine Sword - that really helps a lot versus deathstars when combined with Unleash Rage.

About facing heavy mech - as Mannahim has noted you've got krak grenades, S5 assaults. This will crack just about any tank except for landraiders and monoliths. I don't want to get into another heavy discussion about the value of flamers so let's just say it is something to consider.

You are really heavy in assault squads. I think you're definitely going in the right direction with the list but you'd be better served including a choppy squad of Honor Guard to escort the Librarian. There are lots of ways to arm Honor Guard but if you decide to take them don't run 4x melta/4x plasma. Honor Guard get you a cheap priest plus you can take the banner for +1A - combine that with the Sanguinor's aura and the Honor Guard can throw out an insane number of attacks... This is when you'll get the most out of Unleash Rage!

Anyways like i said this is a solid list. I think as you play test you'll see how to make it even better. You've got lots of bodies so maybe it's not a big deal to bring flamers. :  )