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Hi,

I want to make a fluff accurate warhammer cartoon and I have a few questions on marine armor and bolt/lasgun damage.

Question 1 - How much damage will a single bolter round do against a marine?

Marines wear big and bulky armor, yes, but won't an armor penetrating mini-nuke that is the bolter round pretty much kill in one hit? What about artificer/terminator armor? Will they be able to stop the bolt?

Question 2 - How much damage from a lasgun does space marine armor take?

Lasguns are said to be nothing more than "angry flashlights"... So what happens when a marine is shot with one? A small scorch mark? How many times does he have to be hit to die, in your opinion? Does this mean that, fluff wise, a single marine can easily take out entire squads of imperial guardsmen?

Question 3 - Do marines really ever fire their bolters in full auto?

In DOW 1, they fire bursts, in DOW 2, they fire them in semi-auto, which seems to make more sense, since they're so powerful. Fluff wise, can a marine fire a bolter in full auto?

Question 4 - Would different chaos legions fight alongside?

Also, what if their gods were 'opposites', for example Death Guard and Thousand Sons? Could they be seen fighting together for some common cause?

Damnit!
We are gonna get another discussion about bolter rounds again.
OT.(Btw this is all fluff wise not table top)

Normal PA will stop bolter rounds for a while but repeated hits will eventually kill the wearer. Artificer armour will be able to hold up for longer. Terminator armour would hold out for a long time (Really long time)

A lasgun can burn through PA on it's highest setting. The amount of shots depend on the marine and the lasgun. On a mdium setting it would take longer and need more sustained fire but it could do it eventually. In theory, a marine who was well skilled and fighting against badly trained and led guardsmen could rip apart several squads of them but it's more than likely concentrated fire would bring him down.

Fall auto is wasteful to a marine, they would be more likely to fire them in sngle shot or semi-auto if anything.

Chaos legions will fight together for a higher purpose but that alliance can just as easily fall apart.

For question 4, they do and they have. They're called Black Crusades. In the current year of fluff, one is actually going on right now; Abaddon's 13th.

undivided wrote:For question 4, they do and they have. They're called Black Crusades. In the current year of fluff, one is actually going on right now; Abaddon's 13th.

I thought that ended?
Or was it that Chaos had like 60% of cadia but no conrtol over the space above it?

purplefood wrote:

undivided wrote:For question 4, they do and they have. They're called Black Crusades. In the current year of fluff, one is actually going on right now; Abaddon's 13th.

I thought that ended?
Or was it that Chaos had like 60% of cadia but no conrtol over the space above it?

Hmm, I have to check my sources again. I'm pretty sure the fluff year now is 999.M41, which is the same year as Abaddon's 13th.

On the wiki, and according to some employees of GW the 13th Black Crusade is listed as "Ongoing".

For most of your questions I would suggest reading some of the fluff even after the answers you receive because it will help you gain a better understanding of the universe as a whole.

From what I've seen in artwork and read in stories, a bolter round will blow chunks of space marine armor; shoot it enough and you'll eventually tear through the armor.

Lasguns need to hit either the joints or eye lenses of space marine armor.

Lasguns melt the armor a bit, from what I've read in the Ultramarines series.

People always pay out the lasgun, but fluff-wise it's better then any gun that is used on any of our modern day troopers atm. I remember in the first Gaunts Ghost book where a particular Ghost put his lasgun onto max power settings and it shot right through power armor.

undivided wrote:

purplefood wrote:

undivided wrote:For question 4, they do and they have. They're called Black Crusades. In the current year of fluff, one is actually going on right now; Abaddon's 13th.

I thought that ended?
Or was it that Chaos had like 60% of cadia but no conrtol over the space above it?

Hmm, I have to check my sources again. I'm pretty sure the fluff year now is 999.M41, which is the same year as Abaddon's 13th.

Actually, we're somewhere in M42 now. Like, the very start of it.

prophane wrote:Question 1 - How much damage will a single bolter round do against a marine?

Marines wear big and bulky armor, yes, but won't an armor penetrating mini-nuke that is the bolter round pretty much kill in one hit? What about artificer/terminator armor? Will they be able to stop the bolt?

The bolter shell (not round) is not an "armor-penetrating mini-nuke". It is a very powerful weapon, overkill on any human body (being .75 caliber with a light explosive element). But powered armor is quite different from normal body armor, and can more easily resist the impact of small arms (using its own internal servos), along with the fact that its some of the best materials the Imperium can provide, a bolter shell needs to hit a weak point in the armor in order to actually do any damage. Joints for example, which cannot be armored QUITE as well as the plates.

prophane wrote:Question 2 - How much damage from a lasgun does space marine armor take?

Lasguns are said to be nothing more than "angry flashlights"... So what happens when a marine is shot with one? A small scorch mark? How many times does he have to be hit to die, in your opinion? Does this mean that, fluff wise, a single marine can easily take out entire squads of imperial guardsmen?

4chan is stupid, as are most of the people tha tpost there. Don't listen to them. The lasgun is powerful enough to blast limbs off of bodies. The lasgun is at least as powerful as a modern full powered battle rifle, if not moreso because of its practically unlimited ammunition (Allowing its users to use full auto without fear).

prophane wrote:Question 3 - Do marines really ever fire their bolters in full auto?

In DOW 1, they fire bursts, in DOW 2, they fire them in semi-auto, which seems to make more sense, since they're so powerful. Fluff wise, can a marine fire a bolter in full auto?

Can they? Yes. Do they normally? No. One shot one kill-- do not waste what the Emperor provides. You will always have more enemies than ammunition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

=I= White-Wolf wrote:People always pay out the lasgun, but fluff-wise it's better then any gun that is used on any of our modern day troopers atm. I remember in the first Gaunts Ghost book where a particular Ghost put his lasgun onto max power settings and it shot right through power armor.

That used up an entire battery in one shot, but you know that's perfectly acceptable for a sniper.

They go Full Auto against us. That indoctrinated rage doesn't help keep the trigger finger in control.

Thanks all, insightful posts all around. Now I only wish that there'd be a detailed drawing of a lasgun/bolter, showing the power adjuster switch and semi/auto switch and such bels and whistles. I guess I'll just have to make stuff up when drawing it.

BrotherStynier wrote:For most of your questions I would suggest reading some of the fluff even after the answers you receive because it will help you gain a better understanding of the universe as a whole.

I have read Daemon World, and dabbled in the dark tomes of the Liber Chaotica. I got into WH40k due to DOW games and I've never played the tabletop ... Except one time in a GW store, where I was given a free game as the loyalist scum vs the soulless automatons... Needless to say my poor tactical sense and the necron's utter rapaciousness brought complete ruination to the already feeble imperial astartes... But, I digress.


I am mostly curious about fluff on chaos space marines. What would be good fluff for me to read?

Look into the most recent Horus Heresy books.

Loyalist stories are good too, so as long as they're against us. One good one is Graham McNeill's short story Chains of Command in the Ultra Omnibus.

Bolters do fire in bursts in the fluff, as far as i remember anyway

prophane wrote:
Question 1 - How much damage will a single bolter round do against a marine?

Marines wear big and bulky armor, yes, but won't an armor penetrating mini-nuke that is the bolter round pretty much kill in one hit? What about artificer/terminator armor? Will they be able to stop the bolt?

first, the armor is indeed multilayered, consisting of the best materials and design around. First, A bolter is not neccessarily an armor piercing weapon. A bold is referred to as a mass reactive slug. It is more akin to a mini/anti personnel rpg. It is fired at a target, hits the target, and will detonate. It is not equipped or designed with armor piercing properties but for blunt force. To a Guardsman, who wears relatively light armor, the bolt hits with such force and detonates with such force that it typically blows a big hole in the guardsman. There is an instance of this that I remember specifically when angron and his world eaters are loosed against heretics in the horus heresy books and an imperial commander gets blown apart via bolter.

As to bolter on power armor action, the bolter could smash its way in the hard way. This would leave a crater in the marine's flesh and armor. The armor would either have to take a direct, no chance of deflection hit, or have been compromised somehow. Most of the kills are going to be at the weaker portions of the armor such as the helmets, especially lenses, and appendage joints. Most of the time the damage to a marine would be just as catastrophic, at least severely wounding him.

Artificer and terminator armor types have less weak points to exploit and in the case of the terminator there is even more mass to react to the bolt round going off, meaning the bolts that might have smashed their way into normal SM armor would do nothing at all.

prophane wrote:
Question 2 - How much damage from a lasgun does space marine armor take?

Lasguns are said to be nothing more than "angry flashlights"... So what happens when a marine is shot with one? A small scorch mark? How many times does he have to be hit to die, in your opinion? Does this mean that, fluff wise, a single marine can easily take out entire squads of imperial guardsmen?

Second, a typical lasgun is only going to hurt a marine by hitting compromised or extreme weak spots, the lens of the helmet comes to mind. The las gun is a laser and so will inflict heat damage upon the enemy. The nature of the gun also means that they can have various settings that consume various amount of power-ammunition. In the Gaunts ghosts series several stories talk about the ability to turn it up higher to punch through harder armor. This also is shown by the 'hotshot' lasguns that the stormtroopers not use, which are basically high powered lasguns.
Only on the highest settings would a standard issue lasgun be able to punch through marine armor on its own. this would consume a whole magazine of ammunition. This may not even kill the marine due to the redundancies in his system and so forth. Regular level shots would probably have force to them, like a pushing motion, and would indeed leave scorch marks. As the power level increased the armor would have a melted crater or even vaporization taking place.

As to what it would take to kill a marine, that is depending on hitting an irreplaceable part of their anatomy, ie head, or having multiple shots that get through to his actual flesh that cause catastrophic damage that his super enhanced body can not recover from. This would depend on the power, number, and location of the shots.

Fluff wise, yes a single marine could under many conditions wipe out a squad. I will say that this is not because a marine can take all of their firepower as most squads have grenades, special weapons, and even heavy weapons that would all be capable of killing him. The key would be the marine's training and tactical intellect. He would fight not just hard but smart, as fluff wise this is the vet of at the very least, dozens of campaigns, who is the elite one in a million who has been trained by the best, tested and proven, and due to the space marine tactical structure he has been given room to act and think independently, unlike the guard.

prophane wrote:
Question 3 - Do marines really ever fire their bolters in full auto?

In DOW 1, they fire bursts, in DOW 2, they fire them in semi-auto, which seems to make more sense, since they're so powerful. Fluff wise, can a marine fire a bolter in full auto?

It is possible from time to time, but due to the numbers they typically face/the overkill a bolt does to most foes, they do not use them often.

prophane wrote:
Question 4 - Would different chaos legions fight alongside?

Also, what if their gods were 'opposites', for example Death Guard and Thousand Sons? Could they be seen fighting together for some common cause?

Anything is possible. They have all done so for black crusades. The nature of the struggle between the chaos gods means that they are always striving for control, so should one get too powerful, the other three are smart enough to unite against the one, if only so long as it takes to pull them down. Necessity is also a simpler option.

UrbanCowboy wrote:who is the elite one in a million

A bit of pedantry here: If the Marine is merely "one in a million" then they're no better than the Imperial Guard.

prophane wrote:Thanks all, insightful posts all around. Now I only wish that there'd be a detailed drawing of a lasgun/bolter, showing the power adjuster switch and semi/auto switch and such bels and whistles. I guess I'll just have to make stuff up when drawing it.

Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, Page 19 for the Lasgun.

Well 30 Hellguns firing on a marine will melt the PA chestplate.Can't remeber were I read it.
In Storm of Iron Lasgun fire from the guardsmen (seems like most of the clip really) breaches Honsou's armour and injures him.

Just one hellgun firing will melt the PA chestplate.

That's why it's AP3 in tabletop (AP7 in Dark Heresy, more than enough to damage a Marine through his power armor with only the marine's toughness bonus protecting him).

prophane wrote:
I am mostly curious about fluff on chaos space marines. What would be good fluff for me to read?

The Word Bearer series is alright (Dark Apostle / Disciple / Creed). The blood and gore is sometime OTT but it provides a lot of background info on their structure and hierarchy, which is interesting since they're one of the few Traitor Legions who still fight as a unified force, and haven't broken down into roving warbands etc.

prophane wrote:Hi,

I want to make a fluff accurate warhammer cartoon and I have a few questions on marine armor and bolt/lasgun damage.

Question 1 - How much damage will a single bolter round do against a marine?

Marines wear big and bulky armor, yes, but won't an armor penetrating mini-nuke that is the bolter round pretty much kill in one hit? What about artificer/terminator armor? Will they be able to stop the bolt?

Question 2 - How much damage from a lasgun does space marine armor take?

Lasguns are said to be nothing more than "angry flashlights"... So what happens when a marine is shot with one? A small scorch mark? How many times does he have to be hit to die, in your opinion? Does this mean that, fluff wise, a single marine can easily take out entire squads of imperial guardsmen?

Question 3 - Do marines really ever fire their bolters in full auto?

In DOW 1, they fire bursts, in DOW 2, they fire them in semi-auto, which seems to make more sense, since they're so powerful. Fluff wise, can a marine fire a bolter in full auto?

Question 4 - Would different chaos legions fight alongside?

Also, what if their gods were 'opposites', for example Death Guard and Thousand Sons? Could they be seen fighting together for some common cause?

#1 a bolter shell that strives PA at any sort of angle will deflect off, exploding as it does so. if the Bolt hits head on it will flatten and dig a deep hole into the Ceramite. at extreme close range a bolt shell is capable of drilling right through Power and even Artificer armor. PA also has vulnerable spots like joints and the helmet that a bolt round can penetrate at any range.

#2 Lasguns can penetrate PA at extremely close range and on full power. on normal settings a lasbolt won't penetrate PA, but it will leave a scorch mark. eventually, many lasbolts at the same location will burn their way through and even then they need to cause massive damage to the marine before they incapacitate him. at medium to long range the only vulnerable spot in PA is the Eye lenses.

#3 they can, but rarely do because it would waste ammo. marines are able to aim and pull the trigger fast enough on Semi-auto the get the same effect without wasting ammo.

#4 yes, in Black Crusades although they certaintly wouldn't trust each other. the 1k sons don't fight alongside any other Legions because they didn't side with Horus and still dispise their brothers for betraying the Emperor(and they may still be loyal, in some small way, to the Emperor)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:Just one hellgun firing will melt the PA chestplate.

That's why it's AP3 in tabletop (AP7 in Dark Heresy, more than enough to damage a Marine through his power armor with only the marine's toughness bonus protecting him).

and a Hellgun is just a Lasgun on a Higher setting with a larger power pack to facilitate the greater energy levels.

most of the energy is spent penetrating armor that it's still a lasgun once it hits flesh.

Actually hellguns DO do more damage upon hitting the target. Just not enough to justify S3 to S4.

And you're thinking of hotshot lasguns. Hellguns are something a little bit different (Any lasgun can become a hotshot lasgun with the right ammo pack). A hellgun, while operating on the same general principle as a lasgun, is as much a different weapon to the lasgun as an MMG is to an assault rifle.

of course these differences arn't enough to justify changes.

In a tabletop game which relies upon a mere d6?

No.

Melissia wrote:
Can they? Yes. Do they normally? No. One shot one kill-- do not waste what the Emperor provides. You will always have more enemies than ammunition.

Nice one - good quote, very 40K-ish!

hot shot rounds will destroy almost anything, but very few guardsmen carry them. A standard las round is nothing to artifecer or trerminator armor. I think a terminator could stand hours of concentrated las gun fire, a normal marine, maybe not. Bolters are probably fired on full auto against swarms like tyranids and orks but semi auto on precision armies like dark eldar or tau.

I doubt a terminator could withstand "hours" of concentrated lasgun fire.

Plasma weaponry generates enough heat to penetrate terminator armor. Enough lasgun fire concentrated on a set of terminator armor for even a few minutes would produce enough heat to destroy it.

Melissia wrote:I doubt a terminator could withstand "hours" of concentrated lasgun fire.

Plasma weaponry generates enough heat to penetrate terminator armor. Enough lasgun fire concentrated on a set of terminator armor for even a few minutes would produce enough heat to destroy it.

I think he meant just the 1 lasgun.