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yeah,
Army List I've just ordered online. still to buy leader weapons, plus the hellion squad numbers can be tweaked.
3 squads of 15 Hellions and 3 Dark Lance squads in Venoms (viper conversions)

The idea is that if Dark eldar win first turn (+1 to the roll from baron sky dude)
Turn1 - Venoms begin on the table take pop shots with dark lances and the Archon places the portal in turn one... upto half way on the table.
Turn2 - Hellions start to arrive and can assault from the portal.
...The back up plan is every thing starts in reserve.

HQ
Archon with Portal and agoniser
Plus 4 trueborn (Elites) with 4 Blasters all in Venom with jets 283

HQ
Sky Baron dude 105
in squad of 14 Hellion (Counts as Troops) 224

Elites
4 trueborn 4 Blasters in Venom with Jets 168

Elites
4 trueborn 4 Blasters in Venom with Jets 168

Troops (Counts as)
15 Hellion with helliarch with grenades 270

Troops (Counts as)
15 Hellion with helliarch with grenades 270

total 1488


What do you think?

Panic...

Why dark lances? You can't move onto the table and fire them, and for 50 points LESS you can get ravagers that have an extra dark lance who can move 12" and fire all of them. That, or run them as blaster trueborn; either way, I'm concerned with having only 6 darklances for anti-tank.

I know that still leaves you with WWP issues, but that's going to be the case no matter what. I'm tempted to say just deep strike or walk the hellions on. Cover shouldn't be that hard to find, and you get the added bonus of each unit being able to deep strike in and throw 30 poisoned shots into a unit.

PS if you're already taking a Helliarch, there's no reason not to take the free upgrade to splinter pistol and venom blade; you have the same number of attacks, you'll wound on 2+ at all times, rather than rely on your S4 (before drugs), and all you're losing out on are 2 S4 attacks when charging vehicles (which frankly won't mean much). Seems like a no-brainer to me?

PPS your formatting may confuse some people; all 3 trueborn units are elites and all 3 hellion units are troops due to Baron Sathonyx, who is an HQ along with the Archon.

Well the trueborn squads are fail I'm afraid. Swap them for 4 trueborn all with blasters in raiders with retrofire jets. That way you actually have some anti-tank and by getting retrofire jets you can deepstrike in if necessary.

I'd give the Helliarch's Agonziers so yopu have more hitting power.

I'd also consider bumping up the barons squad to 20. Maybe just going with 2 squads of 20 rather than 3 of 15.

I'd also find a way to fit 3 Ravagers in the list.

Something like this might be better.
HQ
Baron Sathonyx 105

ELITES
4 trueborn, 4 blasters, Raider, jets 168

4 trueborn, 4 blasters, Raider, jets 168

TROOPS
19 Hellions, helliarch, grenades, agonizer 354

19 Hellions, helliarch, grenades, agonizer 354

HEAVY SUPPORT
Ravager, flickerfield 115

Ravager, flickerfield 115

Ravager, flickerfield 115

1494 total.

Now you have 19 Darklight weapons to pop transports and de-mechanise your opponent, which is pretty decent at this point level. Plus you've still got those hellions for smashing apart the opponent in CC.

yeah,
Yes I think your right about blasters being better than Dark lances for the trueborn, for 30 points more I'd get a extra 6 shots at 18" range. I've updated the list.

Is there no love for the Venom?
5 trueborn in Venom with 4 blasters. 180pts
4 anti tank shots plus the transports 8 poisoned shots.
vs
5 trueborn in Raider with 4 blasters. 185pts
4 anti tank shots plus 1 anti tank shot from the
transport.

The Venom also has a flickerfield (10pts) built in...

Panic...

I think your points are off. The reason I go with the raider is the extra AT shot, 5 should take down that vehcile. It also gives the squad the duel purpose of anti-TEQ fire as it also has 5 shots to throw at them.

But the Venom is a popular choice often with duel splinter cannon. I just prefer the extra dark lance if I can get it.

yeah,
Sorry I fixed my points values in the comparison, there is only 5pts difference on the basic unit.

I guess the raider also benifits from being able to shoot its dark lance at a different tank from it's passengers...
Panic...

Trueborn in a Raider, deepstriking with retro-jets are useless for a turn. When deepstriking, vehicles count as moving at cruising speed. While the raider can still shoot, the Trueborn inside will not be able too. The retro-jets rule also states that units inside the raider may not disembark that turn. This combo just doesn't seem effective for me.

I was blinded by how awesome the Trueborn seemed at first, but more and more I'm starting to wonder if they are really worth the points. Delivering them and keeping them alive in fragile transports is quite difficult, as they pose a high threat to almost any army.

Arander is right on deep striking.
Trueborn in a light skimmer used as a gunboat is risky unless you can offer several threats simultaneously to your enemy - target saturation.

I thought the idea was for 60 Hellions?

ArbitorIan wrote:I thought the idea was for 60 Hellions?

Hellions are too specializes as they are only anti-infantry and not anti-tank.

yeah,
It'll go up to 60 hellions for fun...
but I thought I'd try to make a list that works first.

I picked up the 45 hellions from dark sphere yesterday.
plus 10 warriors and 10 wyches to convert the trueborn.
still not sold on the raider vs the venom.

Panic..

Arander wrote:Trueborn in a Raider, deepstriking with retro-jets are useless for a turn. When deepstriking, vehicles count as moving at cruising speed. While the raider can still shoot, the Trueborn inside will not be able too. The retro-jets rule also states that units inside the raider may not disembark that turn. This combo just doesn't seem effective for me.

I was blinded by how awesome the Trueborn seemed at first, but more and more I'm starting to wonder if they are really worth the points. Delivering them and keeping them alive in fragile transports is quite difficult, as they pose a high threat to almost any army.

I agree heavley with you on both points

But it seems like the popular thing to do with all the new DE players. Trueborn with blaster in a Venom.
A 27 pt. Trueborn die in a +5, dosen't seem worth it to me.

Venom great for small units that you want to get into CC with

yeah,
But when a Ravager is wrecked you lose your heavy weapons.

When the Venom goes down those blasters are now on foot. The Venom also has a flickerfield included in it's cost to help keep it in the game...

Panic...

Venom squads aren't bad at all. IF you aren't attempting to deep strike them with retrofire jets. You can't shoot at all the turn they come in. Meaning even if you get them all in on the same turn, odds are slim they live til next turn. Your Archon also can't drop his WWP, meaning another turn to wait for it to work.

I realize that the Archon will normally start on the table, but I think that if your backup plan doesn't work, then the plan in general needs re-tooled. Personally, I suggest running Duke Sliscus over the Archon. Little bit more in point cost, and no WWP, but you don't really need it. Hellions can deepstrike anyway (although yes, they can't assault the same turn) and it means your Trueborn squads are actually useful when they come in. Also means you could use Ravagers if you wanted and just deepstrike them if necessary.

Nice to see another Hellion player, hope you get the list running well

Panic wrote:Archon with Portal and agoniser
Plus 4 trueborn (Elites) with 4 Blasters all in Venom with jets 283

Do you foresee a time you'll want to DS this unit? I'm curious why the jets are there.
The Archon is a weak part of this build because;

Either he is getting out on his own to deploy the WWP and then will go assault things, in which case he needs some sort of armor (Ghostplate, something, he'll be a solo IC with T 3 and a 5+ save).
Or he is getting out with the squad, in which case it makes almost no sense for the squad to be a shooting squad if they're coming to help assault...and he still needs armor.
If he doesn't deserve armor then he is a throwaway character and he doesn't need the Agoniser and, quite frankly, he should be turned into a Haemonculous in order to save points.

HQ
Sky Baron dude 105
in squad of 14 Hellion (Counts as Troops) 224

Let us examine Hellions for a second, vs the common Ork.
Same Strength.
Same WS.
Less attacks.
Better initiative.
"Better" armor.
So basically you have a squad of fast orks that you want to use to punish an opponent. Every Ork player worth his salt knows he wants a claw, so why would you not bring a power weapon with this squad? I'd drop a couple Hellions and buy a Helliarch with Agoniser any day of the week.

Elites
4 trueborn 4 Blasters in Venom with Jets 168

Elites
4 trueborn 4 Blasters in Venom with Jets 168

My biggest concern for you is that you lack any ability to generate anti-tank firepower until Turn 3 (if you deepstrike) or Turn 2 if you don't. 4 Trueborn w. 2 Lances and a Raider with Lance could give you a sniper squad and a gun platform and will cost less than these and give you more alpha strike anti-mech. I'd at least float in one so if your Hellions show up on turn 2 as you hope there'll be a dead vehicle and some hapless passengers to abuse.

Troops (Counts as)
15 Hellion with helliarch with grenades 270

Troops (Counts as)
15 Hellion with helliarch with grenades 270

If you're already paying for the Helliarch (and the grenades are an excellent idea) I'd still upgrade to an Agoniser with him. Even a pistol/venom blade combo will be more potent than the Hellglaive and costs you nothing.

What do you think?

Panic...

Too little alpha anti-tank and squads that are too fragile and will trickle in via reserve rolls makes me suspect your army will be chewed up by lots of armies. I've, quite frankly, got a 1000 point DE army that I think could take this army, and do so with minimal casualties. I expect this list would be a lot of fun to paint and play, but I don't see it as very likely to perform well against a competitive list.

fett14622 wrote:Venom great for small units that you want to get into CC with

They're also great with minimized Warrior squads in them - the Venom itself is a great vehicle and a great value. Though I agree that DSing Trueborn isn't how I'd field them

yeah,

vishra wrote:... but I think that if your backup plan doesn't work, then the plan in general needs re-tooled. Personally, I suggest running Duke Sliscus over the Archon. Little bit more in point cost, and no WWP, but you don't really need it. Hellions can deepstrike anyway (although yes, they can't assault the same turn) and it means your Trueborn squads are actually useful when they come in. Also means you could use Ravagers if you wanted and just deepstrike them if necessary.

The back up plan sucks... I'm dropping retro jets from the list, although this means there is no back up plan! this List will want to go first or begin the first turn in hiding.

Thor665 wrote:

Panic wrote:Archon with Portal and agoniser
Plus 4 trueborn (Elites) with 4 Blasters all in Venom with jets 283

Do you foresee a time you'll want to DS this unit? I'm curious why the jets are there.
The Archon is a weak part of this build because;

Either he is getting out on his own to deploy the WWP and then will go assault things, in which case he needs some sort of armor (Ghostplate, something, he'll be a solo IC with T 3 and a 5+ save).
Or he is getting out with the squad, in which case it makes almost no sense for the squad to be a shooting squad if they're coming to help assault...and he still needs armor.
If he doesn't deserve armor then he is a throwaway character and he doesn't need the Agoniser and, quite frankly, he should be turned into a Haemonculous in order to save points.

This is all correct, Haemonculous is the way forward for the WWP and the squad gets a pain token to boot!

Thor665 wrote:

Elites
4 trueborn 4 Blasters in Venom with Jets 168

Elites
4 trueborn 4 Blasters in Venom with Jets 168

My biggest concern for you is that you lack any ability to generate anti-tank firepower until Turn 3 (if you deepstrike) or Turn 2 if you don't. 4 Trueborn w. 2 Lances and a Raider with Lance could give you a sniper squad and a gun platform and will cost less than these and give you more alpha strike anti-mech. I'd at least float in one so if your Hellions show up on turn 2 as you hope there'll be a dead vehicle and some hapless passengers to abuse.

yeah I think deep striking is out, I didn't realise that retrojets ment the squad could not get out and shoot (I should read the codex more). They may as well start on the board (and hide if going second).

So the venom starts on the board and moves 12" and the crew disembark 2" they can fire 18" = 38" threat range for turn 1 shooting?
With three venoms thats a decent turn one anti tank attack?

Thor665 wrote:

Troops (Counts as)
15 Hellion with helliarch with grenades 270

If you're already paying for the Helliarch (and the grenades are an excellent idea) I'd still upgrade to an Agoniser with him. Even a pistol/venom blade combo will be more potent than the Hellglaive and costs you nothing.

Your logic is right! I'll need to find points for Agonisers or Power weapons at the least.

Thor665 wrote:

What do you think?

Panic...

Too little alpha anti-tank and squads that are too fragile and will trickle in via reserve rolls makes me suspect your army will be chewed up by lots of armies. I've, quite frankly, got a 1000 point DE army that I think could take this army, and do so with minimal casualties. I expect this list would be a lot of fun to paint and play, but I don't see it as very likely to perform well against a competitive list.

thanx for the input guys my list is suspect, and needs looking at.
I want a Hellion/Skyboard heavy army, I love the models. I've just started putting the boards together.


I realise that I need Anti Tank, but it's a matter of finding the balance of points to take away from skyboards.
I think as a fast moving skyboard army either venoms or scourges will make the best fit, to make the army look good.
I've got the venoms (vipers on sprue from years ago) so I'd like to try the venoms, and take it from there.
or sets of 5 scourges with 2 dark lances 140pts could help with ... but I think I'll lose allot of the skyboards.

Panic...

As a thought; for the cost of the two Trueborn squads you could afford 3 Ravagers with points left over - which is probably superior anti-tank though inferior anti-infantry.

I'm honestly wondering if big squads are the best way to go with Hellions, I'd almost be tempted to run 4-6 squads of 10 rather than 3-4 squads of 15 and hook them up with Agonisers/venom blades across the board. The big dink would be it'd be too expensive to get grenades on them all, but as an upshoot you could hide behind cover easier and would present a lot more target saturation for your opponent. The big loss is the Baron himself not getting a good-sized mob of Hellions to boss around.

Thor665 wrote:The big loss is the Baron himself not getting a good-sized mob of Hellions to boss around.

And we don't want that, he's so grumpy then.