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What happens when a block of horrors casts a spell, and an enemy wizard busts out his hex scroll?
Does the whole unit turn into frogs?

-Matt

Well the Deamon book states that "A unit of Pink Horrors is a wizard that can cast spells... (p. 37)". So, I would think that the hex scroll would work on all of them, as they are acting like a single wizard.

Unfortunately, the daemon faq says nothing about this (or, I can't see it).

You pick one who is casting it. So he would suffer the hex.

Killjoy00 wrote:You pick one who is casting it. So he would suffer the hex.

Why?

From memory horrors rules make you pick one horror as the casting model, to check range / LOS / etc from.

no, i belive the entire unit is counted for range and LoS.

think of it as a wizard with a base the size of the units footprint.



that sure makes that Hex scroll hilarious against them.

Grey Templar wrote:no, i belive the entire unit is counted for range and LoS.

think of it as a wizard with a base the size of the units footprint.

You are mistaken in your belief. We are told to pick a single horror for range & LoS purposes.

HoverBoy wrote:

Killjoy00 wrote:You pick one who is casting it. So he would suffer the hex.

Why?

Because if all models were wizards and thus susceptible to the hex then you'd get to roll a d6 for each during the channeling step when determining Winds of Magic. Nobody wants that to happen so best to just turn 1 horror into a frog.

Anyone have the actual wording on the horror spell casting?

I wonder how horrors interact with other items that affect spellcasters (greedy fists, for example).

-Matt

Overall GW didn't really plan on them interacting with such items.

HawaiiMatt wrote:Anyone have the actual wording on the horror spell casting?

I wonder how horrors interact with other items that affect spellcasters (greedy fists, for example).

-Matt

Greedy fist is pretty easy actually. The unit of Horrors is a wizard, every time the ogre character hits the unit it loses a level.

Tzeentchling9 wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:Anyone have the actual wording on the horror spell casting?

I wonder how horrors interact with other items that affect spellcasters (greedy fists, for example).

-Matt

Greedy fist is pretty easy actually. The unit of Horrors is a wizard, every time the ogre character hits the unit it loses a level.

And if you follow that logic, a hex scroll makes 40 toads.

-Matt

However as you redetermine the wizard level every turn for them, making them lose levels / spells etc is irrelevant.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Tzeentchling9 wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:Anyone have the actual wording on the horror spell casting?

I wonder how horrors interact with other items that affect spellcasters (greedy fists, for example).

-Matt

Greedy fist is pretty easy actually. The unit of Horrors is a wizard, every time the ogre character hits the unit it loses a level.

And if you follow that logic, a hex scroll makes 40 toads.

-Matt

Following that logic, wouldn't the scroll actually turn the entire 40-horror unit into one single toad?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wording from the Demon codex in the Horror entry is "A unit of Pink Horrors is a Wizard that can cast spells from the Lore of Tzeentch"

On P.61 of the book, there is a boxout for horrors. It is, of course, terrible GW writing that is bound to cause problems.

The text has two sentences relevant to the discussion, and alot of text for determining wizard level and miscasts. The two sentences are: "A unit of pink horrors is considered to be a single wizard with it's own Magic level" and "Each time a spell is cast, nominate one Horror in the unit as the caster for purposes of line of sight, range, etc."

The hex scroll has a bit of fluff that uses the word caster, and all of the rules crunch refers to "The Wizard"

maybe the scroll just makes 1 giant toad

i'll get a pet Pacman frog and have him just for such an occasion.

MikeMcSomething wrote:
Wording from the Demon codex in the Horror entry is "A unit of Pink Horrors is a Wizard that can cast spells from the Lore of Tzeentch"

On P.61 of the book, there is a boxout for horrors. It is, of course, terrible GW writing that is bound to cause problems.

The text has two sentences relevant to the discussion, and alot of text for determining wizard level and miscasts. The two sentences are: "A unit of pink horrors is considered to be a single wizard with it's own Magic level" and "Each time a spell is cast, nominate one Horror in the unit as the caster for purposes of line of sight, range, etc."

The hex scroll has a bit of fluff that uses the word caster, and all of the rules crunch refers to "The Wizard"

Thanks Mike.
The "etc" clears it up. You nominate 1 horror in the unit as the caster for purposes of line of sight, range, and other such things. I'd call a hex scroll effect, a "other such thing".
Hex makes 1 horror.

Had GW said that you nominate 1 horror only for range and line of sight PERIOD, then the whole unit, being 1 wizard, would be turned into toad(s).

-Matt

The problem (primarily with the way GW wrote both the scroll and the horrors) is that the Hex Scroll never does anything to the "Caster" but specifically turns the "Wizard" into a toad, so even if horror #15B is the Caster, you're still transforming the Wizard (Horror Unit). Since both the Horrors boxout and the Hex Scroll reference both a caster and a wizard you can satisfy the conditions of both by turning the wizard into a toad after the caster directs a spell at you.

We all have a pretty good idea of what GW is probably trying to do with the ruling (you turn the one horror into a toad), but then they went and wrote the rules ambiguously enough that they raise questions there aren't really answers to (what is etc? what is a caster, if not a wizard? are there situations where a caster is not a wizard?)

You COULD read it that way, but that's just not what is going on here. Look at the rules in the BRB for line of sight, and range (and etc.) They refer to the Wizard who does these things. Even the hex scroll uses the words interchangeably. The wizard is the caster. That's only the only plain english meaning understanding of those words used here.

The hex scroll does not interchangeably use the terms Caster and Wizard - the only time "caster" shows up is in a bit of fluff where it says the magical energies are directed his way. Pretty awesome, but not something you can actually represent on the tabletop - unlike the next sentence, which very clearly states what to do with the Wizard.

My point is that the BRB clearly uses the words interchangeable in any meaningful sense. It says the Wizard has to be in range. Would you argue that because the horror language says you can only choose the "caster" for purposes of range that the whole unit of horrors has to be in range? Can you name one example in the BRB where Wizard does not mean caster (which as far as I can tell isn't used with a cap C)?

As far as the BRB is ocncerned wizard = caster. Meaning so does the Hex scroll.

I've already explained this pretty clearly, so far the counterpoints are:

"ETC" is a catchall for any bad stuff even though the spell doesn't target the guy that is being nominated for the clause containing ETC

and

BRB says wizard is also caster, which doesn't exist anywhere.

Wizards, that's capital W, are very clearly defined, in the BRB, and in the Daemons of Chaos rulebook, a unit of pink horrors is, in no uncertain language, declared to be a single Wizard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Killjoy00 wrote:It says the Wizard has to be in range. Would you argue that because the horror language says you can only choose the "caster" for purposes of range that the whole unit of horrors has to be in range?

A spell's target has to lie within the spell's range. The entire caster has never had to be in that range...that would technically not be possible, since the range as measured from every point in the base simultaneously would not be consistent. That's like saying an entire elf has to be within his own longbow range to shoot a goblin, it just can't logically happen, the universe doesn't operate in that manner.

I don't think that Hex Scroll = one horror/toad works.

The hex scroll is used to, basically, remove the wizard from play? Yes/No?

If you only remove one horror does it stop the unit from being a wizard? Yes/No?

To me, I think that the entire unit would be turned into a giant frog.

As an aside, if only one horror is turned into a toad, since he is unable to leave the unit, after all the toad is not an IC, what would happen to the units' stats?

Cheers

Andrew

nosferatu1001 wrote:As far as the BRB is ocncerned wizard = caster. Meaning so does the Hex scroll.

I'm not sure thats 100% true. What about a non-wizard using a bound item? He is not a wizard, but he is a caster. Right?

No, because he isnt casting the spell, the item is. Hence you dont get any bonuses from your wizard level, if you have one...

I was just going to ask about that. Thanks for clarifying.

Do War Priests or whatever count as casters that are not Wizards?

And why hasn't anyone posted "Are you a wizard?" yet?

No, Prayers are bound spells that are an ability of the Priest.

Ok, so it acts just like a bound item, and doesn't call him a "caster" then?

Correct, it also takes Power Dice to use

Thanks, now I know!