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I need some help with tactics and a list for fighting a 'greentide' ork army of 1200points.


From what my opponent tells me, he is using trukks to carry groups of 30 or so boyz across the field. he has only 1 looted wagon with a big boom cannon, and 3 deffkoptas. So most of his force is infantry in transports.

Here is what im thinking of taking:


1174

Tervigon w/ clusterspines 160points


Genestealer x 10 w/broodlord 186 points
Genestealer x 10 w/broodlord 186 points
Genestealer x 10 w/broodlord 186 points
Genestealer x 10 w/broodlord 186 points

Biovore x3 135points
Biovore x3 135points


basically the way i see this going is either a simple wall of genestealers, or try castling the genestealers to provide cover for themselves. In the center will be an opening where the tervigon will follow about 8 inches behind, pooping out termagants to fill the gap/move up and screen the genestealers. The biovores stay back with the tervigon, moving and firing their large blasts into the boyz/nobs w/out transports, then switching to the boyz who disembark form their transports.


Is this a sound strategy? What are some other strategies? Suggestions on list changes? need more cheap swarm bugs? less swarm more MC? Any other tips for playing vs orks are greatly appreciated thank you ^^

P.S. I am fairly new to tyranids, and my opponent is fairly new to Orks(he is coming from 'crons)

The key to killing boyz is lots of attacks and denying them the charge.

I would prolly go for a masseds units of little critters and for the love of god be careful what you throw your MCs at nothing worse then losing you MC due to stubborn and combat resolution

so would large units of Tgaunts/Hgaunts be better than genestealers?

You could stack up a massive amount of Tervigons, give them the blast template weapon, and simply out horde him.

I would throw out such an army as this against his:

HQ
2 Primes

Troops
3x Tervigons

3x 10 man Termisquads.

You have around 800 points right there. Giving the Tervigons the FnP ability as well as throwing in biomorph upgrades helps all the Gant squads. Plus you have 6 troop options.

The biggest crux to this is having enough models. On average, the Tervs can produce about 9-11 Gants a turn. About 30 critters each turn. Assume about 3-4 turns of unit generation- you can produce on average 90-120 models against what he can bring at the 1200 level.

The remaining points you can spend as you wish- add in Hive Guards for transport popping, Trygons to clog the field with MCs, ect.

IggyEssEmManlyMan wrote:so would large units of Tgaunts/Hgaunts be better than genestealers?

Yeah orks are not as adversely effected by outflanking as other armies simply because 90% of the army is already on its way to your lines. So you kill the couple of groups of lootas (theres always lootas) and thats it.

iggy so here is the list im bringing is as follows for fun i might swap out a looted wagon for a trukk.
HQ-Warboss/power klaw/Eavy armour/Cybork body
Fast-Deffkoptas x3/Twinlinked Rokkit Launcha
Troop-Nobs x6 /Big Choppa/Eavyarmour /Waaagh/
Troop-boyz x30 /nob/power klaw/bosspole/ Eavyarmour/big shoota x3/rest with choopa
Troop-boyz x30 /nob/power klaw/bosspole/Eavyarmour/big shoota x3/ rest with choopa
Troop-boyz x20 /all with Shoota
Troop-Gretchin x10/Runtherds x1
Heavy- Looted Wagon/ Boomgun
might drop the wagon and 6 nobs for another 30 man squad of boyz
or old zogwort or his abilty aganst independent Characters

I agree with Warone, though you might want to consider a unit of warriors with dual boneswords rather than the Trygon. Trygon's are great, but I'm not sure it would suit a horde gaunt/tervigon army the same way as warriors might (the boneswords are great on nobs too!)

I'm going to say... Biovores. They are probably the best infantry killers in the book, and your opponent has enough infantry to make them work.

Trukks can only carry twelve orks - not thirty. Battlewagons can take up to twenty but either way mech-orks are not 'greentide'. You're going to have initiative if you're rolling with 'stealers and should be able to outdo him in combat.

I would drop a unit of genestealers and only take two broodlords. A second Tervigon will give you another template to drop, and some chaff might be a good idea to ensure that the 'stealers get key charges.

With that many Biovores, you will DESTROY his horde army if he does not bring a Big Mek w/ KFF or put his Troops in Trukks or Battlewagons.

If he uses Battlewagons, you'll be screwed until his Boyz hop out, and when they do hop out, they'll likely be in CC with your Genestealers.

If he uses Trukks you'll be slightly less screwed since your Biovores have a tiny chance of destroying a Trukk.

As an Ork player I can't comment on the rest of that list, since I haven't gone up against someone using that many Genestealers before. It could work well. I can tell you that Orks can have a hard time with Tervigons. They create so many speed bumps it's hard to get the charge against them. 4+ poison Gaunts whittle our Boyz down so much that there aren't that many left to take on the Tervigon in CC. Once we DO get into CC with the Tervigon though... it usually goes does pretty easily to the almighty Power Klaw.

My advice is to drop all your broodlords for an extra regular genestealer and give them all toxin sacs. Same price, and will rend right through all those orcs with rerolls to wound getting more 6s.

With the tervigons, you should be able to put units of ~10 gants out front, so the stealers should always get the charge. This isn't important for anything but extra attacks.

11 toxstealers get 33 attacks, 2/3 of them will hit on a 3+.
22 hits, wounding on a 4+, with rerolls, and rends on 6s.
Thats going to cause 17 wounds, 6 of them rending. Orcs make 2 armor saves, so thats 6 rends + 9 regular wounds = 15 dead orcs, average. Thats half of a full mob.

And if you'll believe me without mathcrunching, 11 genestealers with FNP from a tervigon should be able to take on a full boys mob, no problem. If you had a tyrant with Old Adversary next to your stealers as well? Thats going to be one really sad orc player.

Doomthumbs I like the way you think, and that army is very appealing to me. How every due to model constraints I have decided to get rid of the tervigon, and instead bring a Hive tyrant with old adversary orks and stranglethorn cannon.

Here is the list I am now thinking of:

1188 points

HQ:
Hive tyrant(stranglethorn cannon; Old adversary Orks) 215 points

Troops:
11x genestealers (toxin sacs) 187 points
11x genestealers (toxin sacs) 187 points
11x genestealers (toxin sacs) 187 points
11x genestealers (toxin sacs) 187 points

Heavy support:
3x Biovore 135 points
2x Biovore 90 points

Same general strategy: GS wall moves forward, hive tyrant either in the very middle or just behind them, either way conferring old adversary onto atleast two groups of genestealers. Biovores again will follow, or if higher terain is available hang back, and unload into the boyz. If orks are going first, I can opt to leave my entire force far enough back to avoid orks getting first charge, and make use of the tyrants stranglethorn cannon to possibly pin the nobs or a group of boyz.


Does this sound like a viable option?? Any tips/suggestions/changes to this list now? Also, my opponent posted his list above.

With both your lists as posted... I'd wager my teef on a tie, or narrow victory for the Orks.

If your opponent switches out something for a KFF Big Mek, I predict a major Ork victory.

Yeah, your Genestealers have a lot of killy power. You'll wipe out a good number of Orks, especially if you get the charge. If you DON'T though.. Orks will do better, and he's got some Gretchen for that purpose, and some Shootas to whittle down your Genestealers before combat starts. I'm betting he'll have a good speedbump and more Orks once CC starts than you do Genestealers so that he'll have the CC edge.

That prediction hinges on your Biovores not horribly maiming him though

Have fun though, let us know how it goes!

IggyEssEmManlyMan wrote:Doomthumbs I like the way you think

Its not HOW I think, just that I DO think. Most of the other advice I'm reading either assumes a strategy that won't benefit you or worse.

Ditch the stranglethorn cannon for a heavy venom cannon. You don't WANT him to be pinned. You want him to get rended all to hell. The HVC should be targeted at the deffcoptas, which are really the only thing other than weight of numbers that can hurt the tyrant.
That said, screw that hypothetical KFF big mek. Field some venomthropes. Two should work, just drop one stealer and two biovores. No ork attack bonus, in fact a huge deficit. 30 orks all taking dangerous terrain tests? 5 of them die before combat even starts, no cover saves allowed.
Plus, its a 5+ cover save of your very own.

Orks can't touch that. Just hang back, in cover, and plug away at them with the biovores, shooting the leading wall of orks. By the time they get to you, the HVC and biovores should have wrecked shop. You won't CARE about him getting the charge, because he gets no benefits from doing so. If you get it, great, but its not necessary.
When he does charge, he loses more orks, then you attack first, and just flat out kill his wimpy green self. As a nid myself, Orks have never proven a problem. Your list looks solid against his, btw.

Suggestions for deployment are as follows: bubble wrap the tyrant, venomthropes, and biovores with all the genestealers, and then just wait.

Thanks Doom I just have couple questions

Wouldn't pinning a group only help me? That would be one less mob of 30 boyz assaulting me, or one less mob of 20 shootas unloading into me.

Also wouldnt STC work to pin the deffkoptas, possibly even destroy them?

If the mob is large enough to be fearless, they don't even take pinning tests.

255 Winged Tyrant, Paroxyn, Leech Essesence, Old adversary
150 3 Hive Guard
50 10 Termagants
195 Tervigon, Catalyst, Venom/adrenal, cluster spines
170 10 Genestealers, Toxin-sacs
170 10 Genestealers, Toxin-sacs
210 Trygon, adrenal glands

That is what I would run in 1200 points, and it's an all comers list not a tailored anti-ork killing machine. List tailoring is not a good habit to get into if you want to be a competitive player. I ran this list minus the trygon in a recent 1000 point and managed first place, even beat an ork player in the process. Your first goal is taking out the Battlewagon and koptas, then his warboss/nobz. That will make it a straight slug-fest, and I'd bet on preferred enemy poisoned genestealers over just about anything in that situation.

Well, Deffcoptas are vehicles, and so I dont think they can be pinned.
But if they could, 3 biovores should do the job.

Think about this: The HVC is str 9 versus str 6 for the stranglethorn. S9 is going to pen a deffcopta, almost assuredly. You're really only worried about the rockets on them shooting the venomthropes or the tyrant.
If I were you, split the group of 3 biovores into 2 groups. That would generate an extra chance of pinning, AND would allow you to split the groups fire into two rounds of shooting at two different targets. The 2 biovores could focus on the shootas, and the other one could try and slow something else down.

But honestly? Your list is tailored for him coming to you, with you smashing apart stuff on the way to you. S9 takes out that trukk and makes the warboss walk and add some much needed shooty to the list. The venomthropes and genestealers are going to make a mess of those boy groups, believe it. Especially with rerolls to hit and wound? Think of the amount of rends that puts out per group of GS. Now multiply that by 4, and you see the picture of you just punching straight though his orky face. Even if the coptas get to you, rends will screw up the vehicles hes taking.

The above poster is offering advice I think would screw you. Wings are 60 points, and you want to preserve the tyrant against this ork list. Why would you want to not sit back and fire the HVC and paroxysm? Just be patient on this one. List tailoring IS frowned upon, but you're not grooming yourself for a competition here. You're playing your buddy the ork, and you both know whats going to happen as per this thread. Might as well make it a tailored list, which is what you've got.

Good point about fearless too. Biovores are actually going to do more damage with the AP4 that the blast comes with. Just keep plugging away, and when he assaults you, he'll lose more. And then 44 GS cram toxic claws in unpleasant places.

When is your game? Do we get a battlereport?
If not we, can I?

Doomthumbs wrote:Well, Deffcoptas are vehicles, and so I dont think they can be pinned.
But if they could, 3 biovores should do the job.

Deffcoptas are Jetbikes, and thus can be pinned. Ld 7 Jetbikes, even. There's no Jetbike unit more easily pinned.

Do you have ANY idea what you are talking about?

Doomthumbs wrote:Well, Deffcoptas are vehicles, and so I dont think they can be pinned.
But if they could, 3 biovores should do the job.

Kopters aren't vehicles. They are T5 and have a 4+ save, 2 wounds and count as T4 for instant death purposes. One good volley from the hive guard and the squad is gone. You have to be careful with these, as they can throw down a decent amount of anti-MC firepower, and equipping them with buzzsaws + their scout move + first turn means they could very easily kill all your biovores before you have a chance to do anything.

Think about this: The HVC is str 9 versus str 6 for the stranglethorn. S9 is going to pen a deffcopta, almost assuredly. You're really only worried about the rockets on them shooting the venomthropes or the tyrant.
If I were you, split the group of 3 biovores into 2 groups. That would generate an extra chance of pinning, AND would allow you to split the groups fire into two rounds of shooting at two different targets. The 2 biovores could focus on the shootas, and the other one could try and slow something else down.

You will never pin orks. You have to kill over 75% of them before they are at all likely to fail a pinning test, and once 75% of them are dead pinning 1-6 orks doesn't really matter. Biovores are not spectacular in the grander scheme of things and while they might do okay in this battle i still strongly suggest you do not use them. The only gun worthwhile on a tyrant IMO is the TL-brainleech devourer, or 2 of them. The only vehicle he's fielding has 14 front armor and will laugh off any damage your 1 decent gun is going to throw out....then it will dethrolla and let loose some HtH unpleasantness in the center of your army.

But honestly? Your list is tailored for him coming to you, with you smashing apart stuff on the way to you. S9 takes out that trukk and makes the warboss walk and add some much needed shooty to the list. The venomthropes and genestealers are going to make a mess of those boy groups, believe it. Especially with rerolls to hit and wound? Think of the amount of rends that puts out per group of GS. Now multiply that by 4, and you see the picture of you just punching straight though his orky face. Even if the coptas get to you, rends will screw up the vehicles hes taking.

The above poster is offering advice I think would screw you. Wings are 60 points, and you want to preserve the tyrant against this ork list. Why would you want to not sit back and fire the HVC and paroxysm? Just be patient on this one. List tailoring IS frowned upon, but you're not grooming yourself for a competition here. You're playing your buddy the ork, and you both know whats going to happen as per this thread. Might as well make it a tailored list, which is what you've got.

A tyrant needs wings or Tyrant guard. Period. Without either he's a slow moving target waiting to eat missile fire. You aren't playing a defensive shooting army with 1 gun and 3 large blasts with 44 genestealers as your core....trust me.

If you went against wings, it is not criminal to take a walking Hive Tyrant. You lose the mobility, but you gain another MC that goes at the same speed as the rest of the army.

I agreed with some of what Carnage said, 1 gun and 3 blast templates is not good for defense imho. I also very much like the TL devourers better than the HVC. So I made this list.

Hive Tyrant <TL Devourer|Old adversary> 210 points

Venomthrope 55 points
2x Zoanthrope 120 points
2x Zoanthrope 120 points

15x genestealers <toxin sacs> 255 points
15x genestealers <toxin sacs> 255 points

2x Biovores
2x Biovores


This gives me possible 8 blast templates(definate 4, plus 4 more assuming I pass the psychic tests), possible anti tank(Str 10 ap 1 form zoans), a 5+ cover save to most of my units, two strong units to act as a wall vs. incoming boyz, an assault 6 weapon to soften incoming orks, and rerolls to hit for all of my genestealers.

Basically I will center it mostly around my venomthrope, the tyrant(and possibly a group of zoans) provide cover for the venomthrope, whilst I unload into the deffkoptas/shootas until they are dead (or pinned), then rain large blasts on the shootas and boyz, using the tyrant to soften up some of them as well with the devourer. In CC the stealers get def grenades and rerolls to hit/wound. If I had the points available, i would bring another venomthrope and maybe some tyrant guards, since a major part of my strategy relies on the venomthrope and the tyrant not being toasted 1st turn.

I know i haven't followed all the suggestions to the point and prolly am still hanging on too tightly to the biovores, but any more suggestions and tips are greatly appreciated.

Against orcs, drop the Zoans. A small blast is gonna be really disappointing before the zoans get locked in combat, and thats when things will become really, really disappointing. Imagine T-rex in a boxing match, with those stubby little arms. Save Zoans for if he had marines, and you needed something to chop through a 3+ armor save.

A looted wagon is front armor 11. A Battle wagon is from armor 14. Hes bringing the looted wagon. Again, no need for zoans.
Also, no deffrolla to worry about.

TL devs is a good choice on the tyrant, but he is now focusing on ork mobs. Get the 6 TL shots off to thin them out then cast Paroxysm on the same group to get them to WS1.
Just taking one of anything is asking for trouble, especially when that something is a T4 venomthrope facing TL rokkits.

Again, I think the rokkits are the biggest problem for you here, for both the biovores and the currently lone venomthrope. Hes not going to scout + buzzsaw you, those units should be bubble wrapped by genestealers waiting to benefit from old adversary. Ideally, hes splitting those into two groups, so that he can sit back and fire twin link rokkits into two of your units. One rokkit for the venomthrope, two rockets for the biovores/zoans. Thats how it will happen, unless you have something to take it out at range.
Hive guard work, but don't fit in the current list. I'd still favor the HVC. It will cause ID on the choppas, AND negate any armor saves. At a farther range than the rokkits. S9 AP4 at 36" is good.

Wings are a must? Yeah if you want a faster way to move your Old Adversary ability into a mob of orks that will kill it.
Tyrant guard? To unlock a cover save and 2 extra wounds? The venomthrope does that.

Id keep the biovores, but move them back into a group of 3, and focus just on the closest mob to thin them out before they take a dangerous terrain test and claws to the face. Orks might not even get to attack at all, or do so with 5-6 remaining orks. AP4 large blast is going to chew away a good portion of orks. Biovores are ideal here, even if they never pin.

Sorry again about the coptas being vehicles thing. It was late, and I'm still a bit feverish. What I said about them being pinned though... If he does what I've seen most orks do, hes taking them as individual units of one, so that he can spread the rokkit love around. I would just not worry about pinning at all. Because if a unit of one takes a casualty... what, are you trying to pin the smoking wreckage?
Even with the scatter, I still favor the HVC on the tyrant for shooting the coptas/wagon.

Good luck.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Carnage43 wrote:Do you have ANY idea what you are talking about?
The only vehicle he's fielding has 14 front armor.
A tyrant needs wings or Tyrant guard. Period.

Do YOU? I've got a fever, whats your excuse?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furthermore, a looted wagon with boomgun carries no models into HtH. It sits back with the boomgun. Missing that HVC yet?

So would 2 gorups of 15 genestealers still work? I'm really thinking seriously about what carnage said, 3 blasts and 1 gun isn't that much. If 15 genestealers would do the trick, then I want to throw in one more venom thrope and then load up on the biovores, or maybe take a pyrovore or two.

No pyrovores, ever. not even vs orks.
Drop the Zoans, more blasts isn't going to help, 3 and 1 gun is enough when its two mostly cc armies.
Bring back more GS. Its the whole reason for the OA Tyrant and venomthropes, why cut them out?

It isnt that much. You don't need any more though.

Raveners. If there was ever a time to bring them, it's against slow moving low iniative non-mechanized assault army.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Carnage43 wroteo you have ANY idea what you are talking about?
The only vehicle he's fielding has 14 front armor.
A tyrant needs wings or Tyrant guard. Period.



Do YOU? I've got a fever, whats your excuse?

I stand by the tyrant needing wings or guard, a lone tyrant is 4 missiles away from death, and will take 4+ turns to get anywhere as well as being out paced by your stealers and losing the benefit of old adversary on em.

As for the wagon thing, my bad. I saw wagon and figured the ork player wasn't slowed (my mistake, clearly) and figured battle wagon with probably the nobs and warboss in it because at no point in my gaming or reading about orks have i ever heard of someone EVER using a looted wagon. Not a very impressive ork list IMO.

I also wanna repeat about hive guard then, as walking nobs in heavy armor are going to be a delicious target for them. S8 AP4 vs T4 W2 4+ save....3+ to hit, 2+ to kill times 6 shots = many dead nobs in a hurry. Gives you 3 decent targets for the hive guard (kopters, looted wagon and nobs)

AspireToGlory wrote:

Raveners. If there was ever a time to bring them, it's against slow moving low iniative non-mechanized assault army.

No. Genestealers are better, for the same function and points.

AspireToGlory wrote:Raveners. If there was ever a time to bring them, it's against slow moving low iniative non-mechanized assault army.

Im gonna be inclined to agree, however, gargoyles also can fit this roll well, and with 60 attacks, 10 of which cause instant wounds (and you should be highly capable of getting the charge), and ork mob gets decimated very quickly. Shoot with them before hand, to inflict an extra 7 casualties outright.

Though Raveners are very expensive, I find they are a good option to consider, and have 12" charge to boot...

To be honest, popping that trukk/looted wagon, will put a massive thorn in his side. Having to footslog, subjecting yourself to fire. Is not something that horde armies take too well... Biovores are actually a good choice as well, they drop Large Blasts now, and should be enough to dwindle the ork forces.

Hive Tyrant <HVC/Old adversary> 210 points

Venomthrope 55 points
Venomthrope 55 points

15x genestealers <toxin sacs> 255 points
15x genestealers <toxin sacs> 255 points

3x Biovores
3x Biovores
2x Biovores

I tied with the ork player today. I did however use this to beat a Dark Eldar army today, the DE guy thought we wer eplaying with 1500 points, so i was 300 short. The biovores were absolute ownage vs both DE and orks.

The DE were terrible, contrary to game breaking squig gak that's been shoved down my throat since DE were renewed. Many of the DE had feel no pain and poison attacks, which didn't help him at all since we both attacked same time and biovores ignored their saves and softened them enough(talking 5-10 unsaved wounds per biovore brood) to die to the rending hits, and they took enough normal wounds to finish them off despite feel no pain. perhaps bad rolls for my opponent and good rolls for me factored in, but I lost a total of 3 genestealers in CC(mostly lost to his few shooty units).

All in all it really went pretty well in both matches, only losing to the orks because of bad measurement on my part positioning units around an objectives allowing his deffkopta to contest on last turn. In higher points games I think more stealers and maybe some hive guard for AT would work pretty well.