Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The Ravenguard are described as sneaky, masters of hit-and-run tactics. Now I understand how they can hit-and-run, get in get out, move on. Scouts could (with some difficulty) could hide, but the regular troops are 8 foot-tall marines in bulky power armor, how does that lurk in the shadows? Plus, their bolters aren't silenced either, firefights would get really loud really fast.
Just 'cuse your read so much crap about general stupidity PRETTY PICTURE!

How would Scouts have "some difficulty" hiding?
They're wearing carapace armor, which is noiseless for all intents and purposes. Camo cloaks also help out in that regard.

Plus, Astartes power armour isn't that noisy either. It's big and bulky, but it's not like it has whirring servos or a constant hydraulic release like the exosuit from Aliens.

And let's not forget that "Legion" details some apparent 'stealth' Power Armor employed by the Alpha Legion that blocked sensors, etc from detecting it by absorbing whatever is sent at it, much like the F-117 "Stealth" or the B-2 "Spirit".

PA is virtually Silent in it's operation.


it isn't so much your ability to make very little noise as it is your ability to detect noise.

Space Marines have a sense of smell 10 times better then a dog, Eyesight as good as an Eagle and much better in low levels of light, and a sense of hearing that allows them to hear a pin drop on the far side of a building.


No matter how bulky i am, if i can hear much better then you i can also concentrate on making very little noise myself. i can keep track of you and get out of sight long before you areclose enough to see me.


you are walking down a long hall and i am around the corner, but i hear you long before you turn the corner and have time to get around the next corner. it doesn't matter if i make noise because you are too far away to hear me, but i can hear you. combine that with me trying not to make noise and you will never catch me.

Several things I'd like to say:

- Hm I think it's quite common for authors to describe the 'whirring of servos' in power armor in 40k novels. While that doesn't make it official fluff, it's definitely worth noting...

- While detection would very much be critical in stealth, as the OP mentioned, the sheer size of marines in power armor would make stealth less than feasible. RG scouts I can see being unmatched in their stealth skills, but for other units...[it] just doesn't seem nearly as viable.

- Bolters can be silenced, at least according to Lexicanum(Stalker Silenced Shells).

- I've never heard anything about carapace armor being innately silent.

A bit offtopic: what would be interesting is if power armor weren't so standardized, so that each major chapter could produce it's own specialized version(RG power armor could then engineered to be silent, possibly lighter, and maybe even have a reactive, cameleoline-type exterior).

and the servo's are soooo quiet you need to be a Space marine to hear them.

The noisy armor is the old models, new armor is a bit quieter. The reason they're masters of stealth is that they're 8 foot tall giants, but can be as quiet as you and I.

With next to silent power armour, and essentially silent bolter rounds, a space marine trying to be quiet can kill you long before you get close enough to see or hear him.

Bolters arn't silent unless they are modified, but even so a marine could disappear pretty quickly if he had cover.

Grey Templar wrote:Bolters arn't silent unless they are modified, but even so a marine could disappear pretty quickly if he had cover.

Was referring to stalker pattern bolter shells.

Mattieau wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Bolters arn't silent unless they are modified, but even so a marine could disappear pretty quickly if he had cover.

Was referring to stalker pattern bolter shells.

Which are sniper rounds mind you.

Not wholly convinced by this silent armour thing
It is not just about quiet servos and hydrolics but the design of the armour.
You move you clunk.

Just an observation on the design
some intersting points have been made and I can suspend disbelief that the technology could exist to reduce noise.

Happygrunt wrote:

Mattieau wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Bolters arn't silent unless they are modified, but even so a marine could disappear pretty quickly if he had cover.

Was referring to stalker pattern bolter shells.

Which are sniper rounds mind you.

No, they're not actually.

They're standard Bolter Shells, except the propellant is replaced with something that's quieter.

Now, Stalker pattern Boltguns...that's a different story.

Hm I think it's quite common for authors to describe the 'whirring of servos' in power armor in 40k novels. While that doesn't make it official fluff, it's definitely worth noting...

Most of the time, they're using it to describe the Astartes inside the suit hearing it. Of course it's noisy in that case.

I've never heard anything about carapace armor being innately silent.

It really depends on how the carapace armor is laid out. The stuff you see the Astartes Scouts and the Kasrkin wearing, that form of carapace armor would be relatively quiet due to its construction(multiple non-interlocking armor plates that still cover the area), while the carapace armor the Jantine are described as wearing would be noisy as hell due to it being huge, bulky, and made up of interlocking plates.

While detection would very much be critical in stealth, as the OP mentioned, the sheer size of marines in power armor would make stealth less than feasible. RG scouts I can see being unmatched in their stealth skills, but for other units...[it] just doesn't seem nearly as viable.

That's just the thing. Raven Guard Scouts are pretty high up their for their stealth skills(the Dark Angels Ravenwing are supposed to have Scouts that operate on foot who are just as good)...but the Raven Guard themselves aren't necessarily renowned for just their stealth skills. They're renowned for guerilla warfare and the extraordinary independence their companies exhibit.

Kanluwen wrote:

Happygrunt wrote:

Mattieau wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Bolters arn't silent unless they are modified, but even so a marine could disappear pretty quickly if he had cover.

Was referring to stalker pattern bolter shells.

Which are sniper rounds mind you.

No, they're not actually.

They're standard Bolter Shells, except the propellant is replaced with something that's quieter.

Now, Stalker pattern Boltguns...that's a different story.

Hm I think it's quite common for authors to describe the 'whirring of servos' in power armor in 40k novels. While that doesn't make it official fluff, it's definitely worth noting...

Most of the time, they're using it to describe the Astartes inside the suit hearing it. Of course it's noisy in that case.

I've never heard anything about carapace armor being innately silent.

It really depends on how the carapace armor is laid out. The stuff you see the Astartes Scouts and the Kasrkin wearing, that form of carapace armor would be relatively quiet due to its construction(multiple non-interlocking armor plates that still cover the area), while the carapace armor the Jantine are described as wearing would be noisy as hell due to it being huge, bulky, and made up of interlocking plates.

While detection would very much be critical in stealth, as the OP mentioned, the sheer size of marines in power armor would make stealth less than feasible. RG scouts I can see being unmatched in their stealth skills, but for other units...[it] just doesn't seem nearly as viable.

That's just the thing. Raven Guard Scouts are pretty high up their for their stealth skills(the Dark Angels Ravenwing are supposed to have Scouts that operate on foot who are just as good)...but the Raven Guard themselves aren't necessarily renowned for just their stealth skills. They're renowned for guerilla warfare and the extraordinary independence their companies exhibit.

Whops, rounds, not bolter. You got me there.

I think it means the Ravenguard are specially selected to be small. I mean, eight feet is practically a midget for a normal SM. They are usually at least nine feet tall, and some are over ten.

Ravenguard probably wear special light armour for stealth missions. Maybe it has less metal and more force fields built on, or something.

I don't see how stealth bolter rounds would work. The basic laws of physics would prevent it. They probably try to avoid shooting as much as possible.

Overall I reckon Ravenguard are stealthy compared to normal SMs, not very much compared to normal stealth troops, but their SM qualities make them better in melee when push comes to shove. That is why they are regarded as specialising in stealth.

IIRC their armour is supposed to be darker than black or absorbed light or something along those lines

in raven's flight, the raven guard (namely corax) are able to kill traitor astartes with things like rocks and severed limbs. They can be quiet.
This is an idea of how stealthy they are- In chapter's due, marneus held a meeting. all the captains, cassius, tigirius, telion, marneus, inquisition, and raven guard were there. No-one noticed the raven guard. They stepped out from the open and even telion didn't notice a sargeant, a techmarines, and captain there. Either the raven guard are very good, or the legendarily aware telion has dementia. Some ultasmirf scouts were getting ready to snipe a company of renegade guardsman, and just as they were, the traitors fell, dead. As the sargeant confusedly said "what the hell just happened?!" the raven guard captain of the 4th said from over his shoulder "we happened". The sargeant jumped, and the captain's tactical squad came from the open again. The captain then walked off towards the enemy base and said "you're good, but this is raven guard work". How badass is that? Then, in the middle of a giant battle, a techmarine was monitoring the action on a data-slate. The raven guard's icons didn't show up. Then the raven guard squad with the captain climbed up a 200m titan and blew it up.
basically the raven guard are SM ninjas. In a time where inter-stellar travel is possible in a matter of weeks, laserguns are commonplace, and superhumans constantly fight aliens, compared to that, most things make sense.

Kilkrazy wrote:I think it means the Ravenguard are specially selected to be small. I mean, eight feet is practically a midget for a normal SM. They are usually at least nine feet tall, and some are over ten.

Ravenguard probably wear special light armour for stealth missions. Maybe it has less metal and more force fields built on, or something.

That has actually been addressed before. They use the Scout carapace armor for "stealth" missions. Raven Guard seem to be unopposed to shedding their powered armour and donning Scout equipment when the situation warrants it.

I don't see how stealth bolter rounds would work. The basic laws of physics would prevent it. They probably try to avoid shooting as much as possible.

The "stealth" bolter rounds actually make a kind of sense. The core of a bolter round(the two stage propellant that makes bolter reports so painfully noticeable) is replaced with a gas propellant(which, in theory, would be quieter). Then the mass reactive explosive warhead is replaced with a solid mercury core, which basically just tears holes out of the target rather than blowing the holes out.

In the Deathwatch RPG, Stalker rounds fired from a normal bolter have the effect of halving the distance you can attempt to make tests to hear the shots, but at the cost of reducing the weapon's damage by 2.
When Stalker rounds are combined with a Stalker pattern Boltgun however, the weapon's damage penalty is removed and no tests can be made to hear the shots.

Overall I reckon Ravenguard are stealthy compared to normal SMs, not very much compared to normal stealth troops, but their SM qualities make them better in melee when push comes to shove. That is why they are regarded as specialising in stealth.

I still reckon it's more that people are misunderstanding their specialty. The special characters giving the Stealth USR are nice and all, but...they're brilliant tacticians and guerilla fighters.

Does stealth come into play in guerilla warfare? Sure. But it's not exclusively necessary.

Grey Templar wrote:PA is virtually Silent in it's operation.

Not according to the Deathwatch roleplay-- they suffer a penalty to concealment and silent move in Astartes power armor. In fact, it's stated that they also reduce a marine's manual dexterity, too.

Melissia wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:PA is virtually Silent in it's operation.

Not according to the Deathwatch roleplay-- they suffer a penalty to concealment and silent move in Astartes power armor. In fact, it's stated that they also reduce a marine's manual dexterity, too.

Game=/=fluff

and that penilty represents the size not the sound.


and a Marine losing Dexterity is relitive when you are already superhumen. losing Dexterity wouldn't matter compared to a normal human who would have far worse dexterity.

shrike wrote:climbed up a 200m titan and blew it up.

Good luck, considering Imperator Titans are 60 m high...

It's a roleplaying game, therefor unlike the tabletop the game itself is very much tied into the fluff. A lasgun and autogun have very notable differences in Dark Heresy / Deathwatch, but on tabletop they're the exact same.

Grey Templar wrote:and that penilty represents the size not the sound.

No, it's because of the armor itself. All power armor has such penalties. Astartes actually have no penalty for size due to their Black Carapace.

and a Marine losing Dexterity is relitive when you are already superhumen. losing Dexterity wouldn't matter compared to a normal human who would have far worse dexterity.

The average deathwatch marine is not really that much more manually dexterous OUTSIDE of armor than a low-level inquisitorial agent. Much stronger, much tougher, yes. But agile? Not really. 40/100 is average for a Deathwatch marine (an assault marine would probably have higher, of course), and they're already considered veterans by the time they're recruited into the Deathwatch. 30 is average for humans, and a human with any experience in combat is probably gonna be 40 or so. Assassins are going to be much more agile and have much more manual dexterity than the average deathwatch marine, and these are not assassinorum operatives-- they're just sellswords/guns for hire.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

shrike wrote:climbed up a 200m titan and blew it up.

Good luck, considering Imperator Titans are 60 m high...

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Not wholly convinced by this silent armour thing
It is not just about quiet servos and hydrolics but the design of the armour.
You move you clunk.

Just an observation on the design
some intersting points have been made and I can suspend disbelief that the technology could exist to reduce noise.

In one of the short stories in the anthology Dark Millenium one guy mutes the sound of his bike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:It's a roleplaying game, therefor unlike the tabletop the game itself is very much tied into the fluff. A lasgun and autogun have very notable differences in Dark Heresy / Deathwatch, but on tabletop they're the exact same.

Grey Templar wrote:and that penilty represents the size not the sound.

No, it's because of the armor itself. All power armor has such penalties. Astartes actually have no penalty for size due to their Black Carapace.

and a Marine losing Dexterity is relitive when you are already superhumen. losing Dexterity wouldn't matter compared to a normal human who would have far worse dexterity.

The average deathwatch marine is not really that much more manually dexterous OUTSIDE of armor than a low-level inquisitorial agent. Much stronger, much tougher, yes. But agile? Not really. 40/100 is average for a Deathwatch marine (an assault marine would probably have higher, of course), and they're already considered veterans by the time they're recruited into the Deathwatch. 30 is average for humans, and a human with any experience in combat is probably gonna be 40 or so. Assassins are going to be much more agile and have much more manual dexterity than the average deathwatch marine, and these are not assassinorum operatives-- they're just sellswords/guns for hire.

A lot of novels says different.
Humans who fight hand to hand with Marines get screwed.
We also have Marines moving as blurs in Souldrinker novels and Legion,but that's hard to quantify(we also have Kasrkin doing the same thing in one of Eisenhorn novels when they fight Cherubael,but they still lose to the creature).

jonolikespie wrote:IIRC their armour is supposed to be darker than black or absorbed light or something along those lines

Personally I think it could. I remember reading in lexicanum, that the night lords did something weird to their suits so that it almost seemed alive, without the taint of the warp...

PA isn't completely silent, as many authers describe the whirring of servos. Plus let's not forget the mini nuclear reactor plant that space marines wear (see lexicanum).

Grey Templar wrote:it isn't so much your ability to make very little noise as it is your ability to detect noise.

Space Marines have a sense of smell 10 times better then a dog, Eyesight as good as an Eagle and much better in low levels of light, and a sense of hearing that allows them to hear a pin drop on the far side of a building.


No matter how bulky i am, if i can hear much better then you i can also concentrate on making very little noise myself. i can keep track of you and get out of sight long before you areclose enough to see me.


you are walking down a long hall and i am around the corner, but i hear you long before you turn the corner and have time to get around the next corner. it doesn't matter if i make noise because you are too far away to hear me, but i can hear you. combine that with me trying not to make noise and you will never catch me.

This, probably makes the most sense. It doesn't matter if you can hear them, if they hear you first, you're screwed

Kanluwen wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
I don't see how stealth bolter rounds would work. The basic laws of physics would prevent it. They probably try to avoid shooting as much as possible.

The "stealth" bolter rounds actually make a kind of sense. The core of a bolter round(the two stage propellant that makes bolter reports so painfully noticeable) is replaced with a gas propellant(which, in theory, would be quieter). Then the mass reactive explosive warhead is replaced with a solid mercury core, which basically just tears holes out of the target rather than blowing the holes out.

I thought of that, but expanding compressed gas becomes very cold, which will create a very obvious plume visible on infra red. I don't know if it would be quieter. Expanding gas is expanding gas whether it is generated by compression or combustion.

Yeah, but infrared tech isn't that widespread. Astartes have it, high-end Guard regiments have it, and really influential Mechanicus members have it.

Tau see in IR, CSMs have it in their helmet, maybe some of the other factions do too.

I would have thought that part ot the space marine's training would involve developing the process of moving as quietly as possible. I guess they can stomp around making their boots ring on the flagstones when they are trying to intimidate an enemy or move like a ninja when needing to be stealthy!

In a jungle environment marines could stay concealed easily. Even large size can be disguised with a ghillie suit or camo cloak. As per low dexterous marines, this is completely false. Captain Sarpedon in the soul Drinkers novels is massively agile and dextrous, he dodges as many attacks as his armor saves him from. Grated, he is a mutant, but only from the waist down.

Kilkrazy wrote:Tau see in IR, CSMs have it in their helmet, maybe some of the other factions do too.

No, Tau have what is called a "Darksun Filter". If I really, really had to guess? It's not IR. It's just light enhancing, like standard NV tech.
CSM go under that umbrella of "Astartes"