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I'm going to be starting a Black Templar (Knights Templar) army at 1750 points in the new year and I need advice on good combos or what to avoid.

I;ve looked through the codex and (yes I know it's old!) everything is pretty damned expensive! i think terminators are a huge points trap so i'll be avoiding them for now.

My ideas i've come up with so far are:

Castellan Heraldus
Artificer Armour
Melta Bombs
Holy Orb of Antioch
Iron Halo
125

Command Squad (5 man)
Apothecary
Melta Guns x 2
Furious Charge
DT: Rhino
180

Emperor’s Champion Gregor
Vow: Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds
140

ELITES

Sword Brethren (5 man)
Crusader Seals x 5
Bolt Pistols & Chainswords
DT: Razorback w/ t-l lascannon
195

Sword Brethren (5 man)
Crusader Seals x 5
Bolt Pistols & Chainswords
DT: Razorback w/ t-l lascannon
195

Sword Brethren (5 man)
Crusader Seals x 5
Bolt Pistols & Chainswords
DT: Razorback w/ T-L Lascannon
195

TROOPS

Crusader Squad (10 man)
Initiates x 10
Melta Gun
Crusader Seals x 10
Power Fist
DT: Rhino w/ storm bolter
255

Crusader Squad (10 man)
Initiates x 10
Melta Gun
Crusader Seals x 10
Power Fist
DT: Rhino w/ storm bolter
255


FAST ATTACK
Land Speeder Typhoon
70

Land Speeder Typhoon
70

Land Speeder Typhoon
70




Or alternatively:

HQ

Crusader Chaplain Krakus
Reclusiarch
Terminator Armour
Holy Orb of Antioch
125

Emperor’s Champion Neo
Vow: Accept any Challenge, no matter the odds
140

Terminator Command Squad (7 man)
Cyclone Missile Launchers x 2
Furious Charge
Holy Orb of Antioch
Chainfists x 2
Thunder Hammer
355

ELITES

Venerable Dreadnought Heraldus
Assault Cannon
Heavy Flamer
Furious Assault
130

Dreadnought Piritas
Multi-Melta
115

Dreadnought Obelis
Multi-Melta
115

TROOPS

Crusader Squad (9 man)
Initiates x 9
Power Fist & Bolt Pistol
Meltagun
Frag & Krak Grenades
DT: Rhino
246

Crusader Squad (10 man)
Initiates x 10
Power Fist & Bolt Pistol
Meltagun
Frag & Krak Grenades
DT: Rhino
265

HEAVY SUPPORT

Predator Destructor
Lascannon Sponsons
125

Predator Destructor
Lascannons Sponsons
125

1749

One thing worth considering is the Predator annihilator with lassponsons at 145 points it is actually viable in the BT Codex...

Coming from the vanilla codex to the ways of the templar I'm wondering if dreadnoughts aren't much more viable in this codex than predators...


I like the idea of assault marines in this codex. they can take storm shields in CC. 5++ inv save for 10 marines at the cost of 5 terminators!

But LC assault terminators with S5 and I5, rerolling wounds and hits for only a few more points than other termies are the best thing in the codex

When did terminators become I5???

Furious charge...

Alright, their are a few things you need to consider here. Apologies for the large amounta of criticism but after many years of gaming I consider BT's my area of expertise.



First, your Castellan has no weapons. A PW and Bolt Pistol is all you really need to add, the rest of his gear is basically how I equip him minus the Melta Bombs. I also personally take the Marshal because he gives your army Ld10.
-Command squads are just not worth it in points. Your much better off at spending the points on regular Infantry.
-Sword Brethren, same thing. They are just over-glorified troops who would get themselves overwhelmed in CC and can't capture objectives like troops can.
-The troops are setup well, PF / Melta is a great combo, however you should have them only 9x Initiate and make your EC ride in one Rhino, and your Castellan in another.
-LandSpeed Typhoons are just a bit of a waste in points I find. They look badass but the best way to equip Landspeeders is to give them all Multi-Meltas so they are extremely mobile tank hunters. I leave the Infantry killing to my Troops and Elites.
-Chaplains are good, but I personally find Marshals are better because of the "Rites of Battle" special rule.
-Terminators, if you are going to take them (which is a Highly recommended choice) take them as Elites, and as Assault Terminators in a Land Raider Crusader. It is honestly the best thing BT's have to offer. If you have 8 of them in there, 6x LC & 2x TH. You will roll up, get out, charge something on the same turn and literally tear it to pieces. With your Vow, LC are re-rolling failed rolls to hit, and re-rolling failed rolls to wound. Extremely devastating odds.
-Dreadnoughts, well their is only two types I will recommend to you and both are always in a Drop pod. Venerable is something you can add if you like, its always a nice extra.
A: Vanilla, Drop pod. (For ripping infantry apart)
B: Multi-Melta, Drop pod. (For blasting tanks and smashing them with its arm)
-I agree with the Predator Annihilator, however if you make tank killing Dreads, tank killing Land Speeders, have a LRC (Multi-Melta), a Melta and PF in every Squad, and 2x TH in a Terminator Assault Squad. Then more troops is a better point investment for more anti-infantry and objective capturing potential. I would usually have at least 3 troop choices in a list this size, sometimes a big blob is fun. However some games you need a troop choice to stick around in your deployment, a 6man Crusader Squad with Special / Heavy Weapons in a Razor Back is a good little squad to do so.

Hope you consider my advice. I have tried alot of different things with my BT's and also I have taken a lot of advice from other BT players over the years.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Corennus wrote:Coming from the vanilla codex to the ways of the templar I'm wondering if dreadnoughts aren't much more viable in this codex than predators...

Dreadnoughts are bound by your Vow. So say if you drop one beside a Monolith, it gets to re-roll its hits and with Str10 its got decent odds to kill the bugger.

I agree with lord and termies are nice but if you dont run them in the crusader than run a 10intiate 5neo crusader squad with a pfist

Ok i've had a BIG THINK and come up with this idea for list:

HQ

Knight Castellan Orphus
Terminator Armour
Iron Halo
Lightning Claws
Holy Orb of Antioch
160

The Emperor’s Knight Urix
Vow: Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds
140

ELITES
Terminator Assault Squad (6 man)
X 6 LCs
Furious Charge x 6
258
DT: Land Raider Crusader
265

TROOPS
Crusader Squad (8 man)
Initiates x 4
Melta Gun
Power Fist
Neophytes x 4
Bolt Pistols / Chainswords
DT: Rhino
179

Crusader Squad (8 man)
Initiates x 4
Melta Gun
Power Fist
Neophytes x 4
Bolt Pistols / Chainswords
DT: Rhino
179

Crusader Squad (8 man)
Initiates x 4
Melta Gun
Power Fist
Neophytes x 4
Bolt Pistols / Chainswords
DT: Rhino
179




FAST ATTACK

Land Speeder Typhoon
70

Land Speeder Typhoon
70

HEAVY SUPPORT

Predator Destructor
Lascannon Sponsons
125

Predator Destructor
Lascannon Sponsons
125

1750

Much improvement from the first list. Very decent structure here, just some small details I would consider.

Their are just a couple things that I don't agree with.

Your Castellan doesn't need an Iron Halo because his Terminator armor gives him an Invulnerable Save.

You should put at least one maybe two Thunder Hammer / Storm Shield Terminator. This way you have the potential of killing vehicles in CC. I'm guessing the Castellan is joining the Terminators in the LRC, very nice.

The troop choices are a 1:1 mix of neophytes. Neophytes are good and all its just the only have a couple of uses. First is to be used in big blobs on foot (20man), for cannon fodder and extra numbers to overwhelm. The second is for Initiate replacements in much smaller games when you are tight on points. Games under 1000 points. This is either case, so I still think your troop choices are going to lack the certain Umph if close combat. Also the two squads that don't have independent character attached to it should be a 10man squad. Remeber Neophytes are not affected by your Vow.

The Land Speeders, at least give them Multi-Meltas if you want them to be typhoons. I think three of them with MM and Typhoon Missile Launchers and a single Predator Annihilator with lascannon sponsons is a better setup than your 3 regular Tyhpoons and your 2 Destructors.

So yeah, overall.
-Get one more Landsppeder and give the Landspeeders Multi-Meltas.
-Get rid of your Iron Halo.
-Replace both Predator Destructors with a Single Predator Annihilator / Lascannon sponsons.
-Replace all of your Neophytes with Initiates.


I think this leaves you with 57 points to play around with.

Terminator Armour gives Castellan a 5++ save.

As an independent character he can be targeted separately and therefore the Iron Halo comes into play.

Since Black Templars don't enjoy the 3++ save of the vanilla storm shields (they can only use the inv save in CC) the Iron Halo is a better investment cause he gets to use it to save Shooting and CC attacks.

Make 2 TH/SS terminators? can do, though if I do take your other suggestion i might go down to a 5 man squad (3 LC, 2 TH/SS)

Land Speeders with multi-meltas.....ok. I can kinda see the point here (more melta).

Troops....I'll have a look.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
HQ

Knight Castellan Orphus
Terminator Armour
Iron Halo
Lightning Claws
150

The Emperor’s Knight Urix
Vow: Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds
140

ELITES
Terminator Assault Squad (5man)
X 3 LCs , 2 TH/SS
Furious Charge x 5
215
DT: Land Raider Crusader
Blessed Hull
Smoke Launchers
293

TROOPS
Crusader Squad (9 man)
Initiates x 5
Melta Gun
Power Fist
Neophytes x 4
Bolt Pistols / Chainswords
DT: Rhino w/ extra armour & Smoke Launchers
203

Crusader Squad (10 man)
Initiates x 6
Crusader Seal
Melta Gun
Power Fist
Neophytes x 4
Bolt Pistols / Chainswords
DT: Rhino w/ extra armour
218

Crusader Squad (10 man)
Initiates x 6
Melta Gun
Power Fist
Neophytes x 4
Bolt Pistols / Chainswords
DT: Rhino w/ extra armour
216





FAST ATTACK

Land Speeder Typhoon
Multi-Melta
85

Land Speeder Typhoon
Multi-Melta
85

HEAVY SUPPORT

Predator Annihilator
Lascannon Sponsons
145

1750



Voila. all ideas taken on board.

The Castellan can only be targeted separately by models in base to base contact with him in close combat. You might be referring to that exactly but it sounds like it was generalized so I just incase. Anyway I usually dish out wounds to him in order to keep my terminators alive when getting shot at, which is handy if he has a superior invulnerable save, but I usually have 3 wounds using a Marshal.

Your Castellan is only 145 points, not 150.

Bare with me, I still think their is one thing worth convincing you on. Or in other words, Emperors Champion Dorian Aegis has got a trick or two for Emperor's Champion Gregor.

So since you're at 1745 points, here is that final little tweaking I would suggest.

Scrap the Iron Halo.. I know hehe, but think about it this way. Upgrading from a 5+ inv save, to a 4+ inv save means one thing. That if you roll exactly a 4 on his Invulnerable saving throw then it was worth the 25 points. However, if you instead upgraded yourself to a Marshal then rolling exactly a 4 would mean you take a wound, making him pared with the Castellan at 2 wounds remaining. Except it only cost you 15 more points opposed to 25 and your entire army has Ld10 opposed to Ld9 while he is alive. Knowing that, you could consider this.

Upgrade your Castellan to a Marshal, lose the Iron Halo, and give him Bionics (a 1 in 6 chance to save him, just like his Iron Halo except 1/5 the points). This spares you 5 more points, gives your guy 1 more wound, 1 more leadership. And if you want to allocate some plasma wounds in the shooting phase to your Marshal. He has a 5+ inv save, with a bonus 1 in 6 chance to make the save, the equivalent of having an Iron Halo. Also consider that he can use the bionics when making his regular 2+ save. The only downside is that you can't use it against Power Weapons in CC. However his extra wound makes up for the possible outcome that you roll a 4 on your 5+ inv save vs a Power Wep or the Equivalent.

So, if he is a Marshal with this setup.

Terminator Armor.
Lightning Claws.
Bionics.

He is 140 points. leaving you 10 to spare. So, give your other 2 troop choices a Crusader Seal each and Smoke Launchers.


Also, just for the record I thought I would bring this to atention because it took me like 3 years before I noticed. The Emperors Champion has 3 attacks base because of his Bolt Pistol / Black Sword. So that means 4 on the charge. I short changed myself for many years.

Bionics don't save you from power weapons.....

Corennus wrote:Bionics don't save you from power weapons.....

I know, I said that in my post. Did you read it carefully, because its pure logic that you're getting more out of your points with my setup. Besides, you're in the LRC, you get out, you charge, you choose who gets into base to base contact with your Marshal, or Castellan. Like I said, the extra wound makes up for the odd chance that you roll exactly a 4 against exactly a CC wep that ignore armor. The extra wound is a bonus, the extra Leadership is a bonus, the extra points you save is a bonus, their is only one downside and its a very specific scenario. In other scenarios the save potential is at par. Just my two cents. In the end it is your army so I respect that you only take advice you see logical. I am the same way, I don't take advice just because it is given, I must always be convinced.

final edit
HQ

Knight Marshal Heraldus
Terminator Armour
Lightning Claws
Bionics
140

The Emperor’s Knight Urix
Vow: Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds
140

ELITES
Terminator Assault Squad (5man)
X 3 LCs , 2 TH/SS
Furious Charge x 5
215
DT: Land Raider Crusader
Blessed Hull
Smoke Launchers
293

TROOPS
Crusader Squad (9 man)
Initiates x 5
Melta Gun
Crusader Seal
Power Fist
Neophytes x 4
Bolt Pistols / Chainswords
DT: Rhino w/ extra armour & Smoke Launchers
205

Crusader Squad (10 man)
Initiates x 6
Crusader Seal
Melta Gun
Power Fist
Neophytes x 4
Bolt Pistols / Chainswords
DT: Rhino w/ extra armour &Smoke Launchers
221

Crusader Squad (10 man)
Initiates x 6
Crusader Seal
Melta Gun
Power Fist
Neophytes x 4
Bolt Pistols / Chainswords
DT: Rhino w/ extra armour & Smoke Launchers
221

FAST ATTACK

Land Speeder Typhoon
Multi-Melta
85

Land Speeder Typhoon
Multi-Melta
85

HEAVY SUPPORT

Predator Annihilator
Lascannon Sponsons
145

1750


lost the iron halo..

Sorry, but I'm just not seeing it. Its a rhino rush along with the ubiquitous single rock which everyone and their mom played in 4th ed, which just really doesnt work these days. If you're gonna play templars, I'd abuse the fact that they can still get 2 assault cannons in their terminator squads, and just spam them.

The List has my seal of approval. I like its structure.

Jabbdo wrote:Sorry, but I'm just not seeing it. Its a rhino rush along with the ubiquitous single rock which everyone and their mom played in 4th ed, which just really doesnt work these days. If you're gonna play templars, I'd abuse the fact that they can still get 2 assault cannons in their terminator squads, and just spam them.

So you vision a Rhino rush with two Assault Cannons... I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume this is sarcasm.

....

Nevermind.

Jabbdo wrote:....

Nevermind.

No lets hear it.

If you're going to come in this post and criticize the help I have given this guy with an elitist attitude. Then give him your advice. Real advice, give us the logic to why this wont work, and why your ideas will.

Unless you posted here with the intentions of criticism without solution. Yeah spamming assault cannons is a pretty nifty concept, but the fact that his list doesn't work is an even niftier one. So lets hear it, for his sake.

Elitist.

Dont use that word again.

It pisses me off like hell.

You can call me whatever the feth you want, I really dont give a gak, but not that.

Now.

I was merely remarking that I have seen black templars played to great effect utilizing the ability of taking 2 assault cannons per terminator squad w/ tank hunters.

If you really want me to point out why the list wont work, OK. Remember, you asked for it.

Single rock armies fail. Period. Either the raider dies to fast melta, or your terminators jump out, slaughter a cheap screening unit, and die. Single rocks are just too easy to stop or render ineffective. Sure, those terminators will be able to kill pretty much anything that they happen to face (except some really nasty ass gak like 10 THSS or the like) but that wont really help when your opponent can feed them a cheap unit then blow them away, or blow up the raider and laugh at your 6" move.

You have no suppressive fire to speak of, except for 1 pred which will AT BEST destroy 1 tank per turn. That wont cut it @ 1750.

Relying on 3 single melta squads as your only other antitank... No. Do I even need to tell you why this is a BAD BAD idea.

Sure, you have 2 MM speeders, but as everything else will be covered by oldschool smoke lauchers... guess who will be falling out of the sky first?

Your crusader squads are all well and good, sure, they will be able to beat GEQ's easily, and other MEQ squads of similar size... just hope you dont have to charge into cover And what happens when any decent CC unit comes along? Your assault marines with rerolls arent so awesome after all.

That pretty much covers it really.

Happy now? You brought this on yourself you know.

BTW nothing personal Corennus, this guy just pissed me off.

Do NOT ever take a dedicated land raider if you don't have to! Black Templars don't borrow rides. Also, I'd much rather drop the speeders, blessed hull and the predator and change them for 5 multi-melta attack bikes. Attack Bikes work better with rhino rush than speeders and a single predator is not all that cool. You need all the meltas you can get anyway to get all the correct charges.

Jabbdo is right about single rocks, so you're just gonna have to play it in concert with your rhinos. He'll be hard pressed killing 30 marines AND the terminators after his bubble wrap is dead. Don't expect the termies to work on their own. They will be forced into a bad charge; the raider is destroyed; the termies are outmanouvered. They are veeery good in CC, but easy to beat on their own.

Jabbdo wrote:Elitist.

Don't use that word again.

It pisses me off like hell.

You can call me whatever the feth you want, I really dont give a gak, but not that.

What pisses me off like hell is when people take on an elitist attitude, and lets be honest with ourselves here. Your entry into this thread consisted of you PooPoo'ing his list, vaguely giving your expertise, then ".....Nevermind". The only clear motive you have at this point to help Corennus improve his list is out of the spite you have towards me. I'm sorry if being called an elitist is what you hate most, so lets just pretend I called you an Elite-Slot'ist, referring to the fact you recommend him spamming Terminators in his Elite slots for his force organization chart.

Jabbdo wrote:I was merely remarking that I have seen black templars played to great effect utilizing the ability of taking 2 assault cannons per terminator squad w/ tank hunters.

Excellent. I humbly never thought of this approach. My only skepticism comes from the the special rule they follow "Kill Them All". However I would like you to expand on this strategy, for the sake of Croennus's approach on his new army, as well as my own curiosity.

Jabbdo wrote:If you really want me to point out why the list wont work, OK. Remember, you asked for it.

Hey man this is his list not mine, so yeah point out its weaknesses and identify some solutions.
If you like I can give you my list based on a Rhino rush / big rock type structure. But only if you're going to give me constructive criticism, not just criticism.

Jabbdo wrote:Single rock armies fail. Period. Either the raider dies to fast melta, or your terminators jump out, slaughter a cheap screening unit, and die. Single rocks are just too easy to stop or render ineffective. Sure, those terminators will be able to kill pretty much anything that they happen to face (except some really nasty ass gak like 10 THSS or the like) but that wont really help when your opponent can feed them a cheap unit then blow them away, or blow up the raider and laugh at your 6" move.

You make it sound like Land Raiders don't work in general for 40k. Everything has the potential to be destroyed, and yeah this thing is a huge target not just because of its size, but also because of its potency. However you're putting it into a scenario where its not pulling its own weight in points, you can do this with any unit in 40k.

Jabbdo wrote:You have no suppressive fire to speak of, except for 1 pred which will AT BEST destroy 1 tank per turn. That wont cut it @ 1750.

I'll assume you recommend Terminators with Assault Cannons for more suppressive fire? The only problem here is then his troops will be all alone up there and they are going to get overwhelmed pretty quickly without the Assault Terminators helping the fight. You're not backing yourself up with solutions so I'm having a hard time understanding your point.

Jabbdo wrote:Relying on 3 single melta squads as your only other antitank... No. Do I even need to tell you why this is a BAD BAD idea.

Sure, you have 2 MM speeders, but as everything else will be covered by oldschool smoke lauchers... guess who will be falling out of the sky first?

He has a melta / PF in every squad, 2 Land Speeders with MM, 1 Predator, a LRC with MM, and 2x TH/SS in his Assault Terminator squad. Everything he put on the field has anti tank....

Jabbdo wrote:Your crusader squads are all well and good, sure, they will be able to beat GEQ's easily, and other MEQ squads of similar size... just hope you dont have to charge into cover And what happens when any decent CC unit comes along? Your assault marines with rerolls arent so awesome after all.

They can only be better with less neophytes and more initiates which is something I recommended. What do you expect this is Black Templars, the only other option is to make Big blobs. If you are going to suggest shooty squads then my skepticism is going to sky rocket.

Jabbdo wrote:That pretty much covers it really.

Happy now? You brought this on yourself you know.

BTW nothing personal Corennus, this guy just pissed me off.

Alright, you gave much specificity in your criticism. But that's only half of it, criticism only has value if its backed by solutions. So if assault cannon spam is the solution to every problem you tried to point out, I would very much like to see a list.

Marshal with pair of lightning claws, terminator armour, tank hunters @ 138pts.
(4) Terminator Command Squad with 2 assault cannons, tank hunters @ 212pts.

Castellan with pair of lightning claws, terminator armour, tank hunters, auspex @ 125pts.
(4) Terminator Command Squad with 2 assault cannons, tank hunters @ 212pts.

Emperor’s Champion with accept any challenge, no matter the odds @ 140pts.

(5) Terminators with 2 assault cannons, tank hunters @ 255pts.

(5) Terminators with 2 assault cannons, tank hunters @ 255pts.

(5) Crusaders with 5 initiates, 5x bolt pistols and close combat weapons, lascannon, plasmagun @ 101pts.

(5) Crusaders with 5 initiates, 5x bolt pistols and close combat weapons, lascannon, plasmagun @ 101pts.

(8) Crusaders with 5 initiates, 3 neophytes, 8x bolt pistols and close combat weapons, flamer, powerfist @ 131pts.

Drop Pod @ 30pts.

(5) Inquisitorial Storm Troopers (Codex: Daemon Hunters) @ 50pts.

This list was made and is played by Haizelhoff (the guy above) I've played against it many times. The main difference to Corennus' list is that here the crusaders are just objective claimers/fire support units, whereas in Corennus' list they were expected to do a lot of work themselves, while here the terminators do the majority of the killing. I'm sure Haizelhoff can go into more details if you ask, he's quite good with Black Templars, and has gotten good results with them. I sure remember the times I've got my ass handed to me by this list, either through gakky dice rolling or just gakky playing

I'm not saying this is the ONLY list for BT, I think multiple land raiders with terminators inside, backed up by appropriate fire support, would be fairly effective and a refreshing list to see. 1 Land raider just doesnt work, I've seen it fail and had it fail on me, and in my experience that one raider just goes down too fast and then the contents are rendered ineffective.

I will post a few responses so I will have a few amended posts.

Jabbdo wrote:Elitist.

Dont use that word again.

It pisses me off like hell.

You can call me whatever the feth you want, I really dont give a gak, but not that.

knock off the 'i am so humble i am not an elitist' crap, you came off as not wanting to mess with this because you were to busy, that is an elitist attitude, so buck up and be nice, everyone.

Jabbdo wrote:I was merely remarking that I have seen black templars played to great effect utilizing the ability of taking 2 assault cannons per terminator squad w/ tank hunters.

yes, but that is an anti-infantry load out, or anti-elite/light vehicle at the best

Jabbdo wrote:Single rock armies fail. Period. Either the raider dies to fast melta, or your terminators jump out, slaughter a cheap screening unit, and die. Sinle rocks are just too easy to stop or render ineffective. Sure, those terminators will be able to kill pretty much anything that they happen to face (except some really nasty ass gak like 10 THSS or the like) but that wont really help when your opponent can feed them a cheap unit then blow them away, or blow up the raider and laugh at your 6" move.

that is why you race the raider up front, or as i do, race your rhinos forward pop their smoke as cover for turn one and two, also you forget about rightsous zeal for their move.

Jabbdo wrote:You have no suppressive fire to speak of, except for 1 pred which will AT BEST destroy 1 tank per turn. That wont cut it @ 1750.

he shouldn't need to much suppressive, he just need to survive 1-2 turns to meet his opponents line. and the wolf pack speeders do very well taking out enemy vehicles from a flank.

Jabbdo wrote:Relying on 3 single melta squads as your only other antitank... No. Do I even need to tell you why this is a BAD BAD idea.

Sure, you have 2 MM speeders, but as everything else will be covered by oldschool smoke lauchers... guess who will be falling out of the sky first?

well, he has 2 th/ss, the LRC's multi-melta, 2 speeder multi meltas, and the three crusadeers melta guns, not to mention the predator. and who target speeders in cover first? he should hop them from cover to cover untill the last minute to shoot out of cover.

Jabbdo wrote:Your crusader squads are all well and good, sure, they will be able to beat GEQ's easily, and other MEQ squads of similar size... just hope you dont have to charge into cover And what happens when any decent CC unit comes along? Your assault marines with rerolls arent so awesome after all.

oh damn, he will loose a single attack from the crusaders, that is all of 12 attacks with re-rolled to hits, that sucks, yes it could have been 18, but 12 is still good when re-rolled, and the assault marines won't go after units they cant kill or tie up indefinitely (or at least a few turns) anyway.

Jabbdo wrote:That pretty much covers it really.

Happy now? You brought this on yourself you know.

BTW nothing personal Corennus, this guy just pissed me off.

you really like to end on high notes don't you?

EDIT: Unfortunately BT suffer from only ever getting single meltas into their crusader squads. Although the squads contain meltaguns they are really unreliable. Besides, if you fire at a tank and don't destroy it, you can't charge the guys inside, even if somebody else opens up the tank for you. Thus, often you'll find yourself in a situation where you refrain from using that meltagun.

LordofSteel wrote:If you are going to suggest shooty squads then my skepticism is going to sky rocket.

Not my list, but I'm sure as a BT player you too can see the beauty of this list

HQ1: 1 Emperors Champion (90). Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch (20) [110]
HQ2: 1 Marshal (80). terminator armour (25), tank hunters (3) [320]
HQ2. 1 Terminator commandsquad. 4 Terminators (4*40) Assault cannons (2*20) Tank hunters (4*3)

Elites1: 1 Terminator Squad. 5 Terminators (5*40) Assault cannons (2*20) Tank hunters (5*3) [255]
Elites2: 1 Dreadnought (105). twin-linked lascannon (20), missile launcher (10) Smoke (3) [138]
Elites3: 1 Dreadnought (105). twin-linked lascannon (20), missile launcher (10) Smoke (3) [138]

Troops1: 1 Crusader Squad. 5 marines (5*16), lascannon (15), meltagun (10) [105]
Troops2: 1 Crusader Squad. 5 marines (5*16), lascannon (15), meltagun (10) [105]
Troops3: 1 Crusader Squad. 5 marines (5*16), lascannon (15), plasmagun (10) [101]
Troops4: 1 Crusader Squad. 5 marines (5*16), lascannon (15), plasmagun (10) [101]

Heavy1: 1 Predator Destructor (100). side sponsons with lascannons (25) Searchlight (1)[126]
Heavy2: 1 Predator Destructor (100). side sponsons with lascannons (25) [125]
Heavy3: 1 Predator Destructor (100). side sponsons with lascannons (25) [125]

TOTAL [1750pts]

LordofSteel wrote: Alright, you gave much specificity in your criticism. But that's only half of it, criticism only has value if its backed by solutions. So if assault cannon spam is the solution to every problem you tried to point out, I would very much like to see a list.

Jabbdo has one list, this one is for non-restricted comp.

Marshal with pair of lightning claws, terminator armour, tank hunters, @ 138pts.
(4) Terminator Command Squad with 2 assault cannons, tank hunters @ 212pts.

Emperor’s Champion with accept any challenge, no matter the odds @ 140pts.

(5) Terminators with 2 assault cannons, tank hunters @ 255pts.

(5) Terminators with 2 assault cannons, tank hunters @ 255pts.

(5) Terminators with 2 assault cannons, tank hunters @ 255pts.

(5) Crusaders with 5 initiates, 5x bolt pistols and close combat weapons, lascannon, plasmagun, crusader seal @ 102pts.

(5) Crusaders with 5 initiates, 5x bolt pistols and close combat weapons, lascannon, plasmagun, crusader seal @ 102pts.

(5) Crusaders with 5 initiates, 5x bolt pistols and close combat weapons, lascannon, plasmagun, crusader seal @ 102pts.

(9) Crusaders with 6 initiates, 3 neophytes, 8x bolt pistols and close combat weapons, flamer, powerfist, crusader seal @ 147pts.

Drop Pod @ 30pts.


You can give me some constructive criticism. Sorry Corennus for stealing ur thread.

so what i have here is a list i have used to much effect despite criticisms and the standard ideas about use of units.

HQ
marshal dual lightning claws artificer armour 130
marshall dual lightning claws artificer armour 130

these guys will be in one of the rhinos each, and the EC is an HQ but their is only 2 slots for hq's in my excell sheet at the moment.

Troops
crusader squad, 7 power fist melta-gun rhino smoke 195
crusader squad, 7 power fist melta-gun rhino smoke 195
crusader squad, 7 power fist melta-gun rhino smoke 195
emperor's champion, 1 aacnmtc 140

like I said earlier all the HQ's ride in a rhino each.

Elites
dreadnought, 1 smoke 108
dreadnought, 1 twin linked las venerable tank hunter smoke 155
sword brethren, 10 furious charge dual lightning claws power weapon land raider crusader 495

this is my hammer, I run the lrc down the middle or table edge surrounded by rhinos and the dreadnought wolf pack, they smoke is used as a cover mechanic for all the other units, I can run the dreads and a rhino or two rhinos up and pop smoke while the other units come up behind them and get a nice substantial cover save and protecting them turn one, and possibly turn two as well, the sword brethren I have found are a very fun unit if used properly, these guys have a very effective anti heavy infantry use with furious charge and the several power weapons.

Points Summary:
HQ: 260
Troops: 725
Elites: 755
Total: 1746

before you all criticize this to heavily, I know their is some large flaws, that is why a concerted effort needs to be made to follow this startegy as close as you can, the entire army is a small tight nit unit, every thing is designed to support the other, you cannot spread to far out, so this has worked for me in how i play, but this idea may not work for you.

@Jabbdo


I have to admit I like the list. If I had the extra money I would tweak my BT force to be able to field a list like this or similar. But I honestly don't think it dominates over a traditional BT list with Rhinos and LRC w/ ATermies. Or at all renders them obsolete.

It's definitely a different approach that BT's can take, but I'm not so sure that I personally would recommend this play style for a brand new BT player. Starting a BT army is a lot about its fluff, its unique play style to other space marine armies, its Righteousness and its Burning Heretics. The reason for someone to start a BT army now is for the same reasons anyone else had who started one in 4th edition. An assault-cannon spam list is something I see as being useful for more experienced BT players who want a new dimension to their play style. But hey, if Corennus likes this list then he should for sure go for it. If he likes the traditional style of play for BT's he should strive for that. If so Haizelhoff should help him tweak his list, and if he wants a list written for him, I got one handy.

Personally when someone wants advice with a new army, I don't like to write them up a list. I don't like it when people do that to me, so his list is his, tweaked by some of my advice as well as some advice from others. It's a lot better than mine was when I first started BT's. If he wants me to write him up a list all he has to do is ask.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

haizelhoff wrote:

Not my list, but I'm sure as a BT player you too can see the beauty of this list

HQ1: 1 Emperors Champion (90). Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch (20) [110]
HQ2: 1 Marshal (80). terminator armour (25), tank hunters (3) [320]
HQ2. 1 Terminator commandsquad. 4 Terminators (4*40) Assault cannons (2*20) Tank hunters (4*3)

Elites1: 1 Terminator Squad. 5 Terminators (5*40) Assault cannons (2*20) Tank hunters (5*3) [255]
Elites2: 1 Dreadnought (105). twin-linked lascannon (20), missile launcher (10) Smoke (3) [138]
Elites3: 1 Dreadnought (105). twin-linked lascannon (20), missile launcher (10) Smoke (3) [138]

Troops1: 1 Crusader Squad. 5 marines (5*16), lascannon (15), meltagun (10) [105]
Troops2: 1 Crusader Squad. 5 marines (5*16), lascannon (15), meltagun (10) [105]
Troops3: 1 Crusader Squad. 5 marines (5*16), lascannon (15), plasmagun (10) [101]
Troops4: 1 Crusader Squad. 5 marines (5*16), lascannon (15), plasmagun (10) [101]

Heavy1: 1 Predator Destructor (100). side sponsons with lascannons (25) Searchlight (1)[126]
Heavy2: 1 Predator Destructor (100). side sponsons with lascannons (25) [125]
Heavy3: 1 Predator Destructor (100). side sponsons with lascannons (25) [125]

TOTAL [1750pts]

Yeah definitely. It adds a new dimension of play style BT's can use.



-edit below_______________________________________________________________________________________

Since we are all dishout out our lists I figured I might as well. Here is a 2000 point list of mine. I play a lot of Annihilation games.
HQ: 291

-Emperors Champ. Accept Any Challenge.
-Marshal. Artificer Armor, Iron Halo, Power Wep, Bolt Pistol, Holy Orb.
*each HQ rides in one of the Rhinos.

Elite: 634

-Dreadnought Multi-Melta. Drop Pod.
-Dreadnought Multi-Melta. Drop pod.
-8x Assault Termies, Furious Charge, (5x LC, 3x TH). They ride in the LRC

Troops: 677

-9x Initiate, 1x PF, 1x Melta, Rhino. Extra armor, Smoke. EC rides in this Rhino
-9x Initiate, 1x PF, 1x Melta, 1x Cseal, Rhino. Extra armor, Smoke. Marshal rides in this Rhino
-10x Initiate, 1x PF, 1x Melta, 1x Cseal, Rhino. Extra armor, Smoke.

Fast Attack: 130

1x Landspeeder, Multi Melta.
1x Landspeeder, Multi Melta.

Heavy Support:268

Land Raider Crusader, smoke launchers.

LordofSteel wrote:
I have to admit I like the list. If I had the extra money I would tweak my BT force to be able to field a list like this or similar. But I honestly don't think it dominates over a traditional BT list with Rhinos and LRC w/ ATermies. Or at all renders them obsolete.

It's definitely a different approach that BT's can take, but I'm not so sure that I personally would recommend this play style for a brand new BT player. Starting a BT army is a lot about its fluff, its unique play style to other space marine armies, its Righteousness and its Burning Heretics. The reason for someone to start a BT army now is for the same reasons anyone else had who started one in 4th edition. An assault-cannon spam list is something I see as being useful for more experienced BT players who want a new dimension to their play style. But hey, if Corennus likes this list then he should for sure go for it. If he likes the traditional style of play for BT's he should strive for that. If so Haizelhoff should help him tweak his list, and if he wants a list written for him, I got one handy.

Personally when someone wants advice with a new army, I don't like to write them up a list. I don't like it when people do that to me, so his list is his, tweaked by some of my advice as well as some advice from others. It's a lot better than mine was when I first started BT's. If he wants me to write him up a list all he has to do is ask.

Yea termie spam is prob not the most beginner friendly list for BT, but I also think it's good to show new players the multitude of lists you can make from the BT codex. BT are really nice because you can really use your troops choices in many ways, unlike say Vanilla marines.

The BT fluff is one of the few that I would dare say that I really love in the 40k universe, and is surely one reason why I have my BT, but they also play very differently to other marine lists and offer gamers a different expierence.I also think it's nice that a lot of people have posted lists on this thread. You can often get many new ideas just by looking at other players' lists.

I would be more then happy to help other players out with tweaking with their lists, if they feel like it. I already gave Corennus some ideas regarding his latest lists, but if he, or anyone else, wants to try some other build then just shoot me a PM or ask here.

The problem isn't that single rocks are down right bad, but they are easier to counter, and thus you get less for your points. Having two rock units works as a nice force multiplier to give you more return on investment.

WOW.

A lot of different ideas floating around here.

I DO own 3 squads of terminators which could be converted to tactical squads to take advantage of 2 command squads with assault cannons.
My only concern with that approach is:
Cost.
If you're deepstriking Terminators with the HQ then they arrive, blow something up, then get every lascannon, plasma gun and high strength gun turned on them next turn.
If you take the option of 2/3 Land Raiders and Land Raider Crusaders you VERY QUICKLY start running out points for troops, and you have 2 very large targets that any opponent will target from turn 1 of the game.

In my eyes Black Templar (and variant chapter) terminators are much more anti-infantry than most other codexes with Furious Charge and Preferred Enemy.
Therefore while I do understand the appeal of 4 assault cannons in an army I'd prefer my terminators as elites only (assault terminators)


OK let's have a rethink about how to get some more Terminator goodness into a 1750 list:

Castellan
Terminator Armour
Lightning Claws
Melta Bombs
125


The Emperor's Champion
Accept any Challenge, No Matter the Odds
140

ELITES

Terminator Assault Squad (5 man)
x 3 LC, 2 TH/SS
Furious Charge
Crusader Seal
217
DT: Land Raider
250

Terminator Assault Squad (5 man)
x 3 LC, 2 TH/SS
Furious Charge
Crusader Seal
217
DT: Land Raider
250

TROOPS

Crusader Squad (9 man)
Melta Gun
DT: Rhino
203

Crusader Squad (9 man)
Melta Gun
DT: Rhino
203

FAST ATTACK

Landspeeder
Multi-Melta
65

Landspeeder
Multi-Melta
65


And having got to the end of this list.......I hate it.

I'm really not liking the crap inv save of tactical terminators but there's no way to make the assault terminators work IMO! arrggghh

I never deepstrike my termies with assault cannons. They are better off starting on the board, pushing towards midfield and shooting at the latest, from turn 2.

About your list:

Normal land raiders can't be taken as dedicated transports by BT. That's fine since you have heavy support slots open, and you don't want them as DT anyway. I wouldn't try to take full rhino groups for troops choices. It eats a lot of points. Try 3 5-man squads kitted out for shooting (lascannon+plasmagun is the best imo). This should give you enough points for more units into the list. Maybe AutoLas preds, more speeders or attack bikes? Maybe speeders or attack bikes, since the godhammer land raiders give you a nice dose of lascannons already. I would upgrade the castellan to a marshal in this case, to help the foot crusader squads.

If you don't like it, then feel free to try a different approach, maybe even the single rock, just be aware of the single rock's limitations.