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ok so Im playing space marines and I need a way to handle thunderwolves. what does dakka think? options...
1. trio of vindicators
2. assault terminators backed up by librarian with null zone
3. dreads
4. something I missed?

current list is vulkan, 5 assault terminators, redeemer, captain on bike, veterans w/bikes, flamers and lightning claws, 2 bike squads with meltas + multi melta attack bike, 3 squads of 2 mm/hf land speeders. what do you think should be taken out to make room for the new addition? thanks for the input.

What point level? Also what else is the SW player using?

Keep in mind that strength 10 isn't the only way to take out Thunderwolves-- they're much more vulnerable to torrents of fire than one might expect.

They're called Splinter weapons.

Dark Eldar Codex...

read it

love it

play it

Deadshane1 wrote:They're called Splinter weapons.

Dark Eldar Codex...

read it

love it

play it

Not helpful at all. If you actually read his post you'd see he's playing space marines.

Null Zone and lots of fire. I wouldn't really rely on vindicators.

Dracos wrote:What point level? Also what else is the SW player using?

2000 points. his army is something like:
2 lords on thunder wolves
2 squads of 3 wolves w/1 power fist and 1 storm shield
1 squad of fenrisian wolves
1 vindicator
1 land raider crusader with assault terminators
2 squads of grey hunters, 1 melta gun, razor back, lascannon
2 grey hunters with meltagun.




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Deadshane1 wrote:They're called Splinter weapons.

Dark Eldar Codex...

read it

love it

play it

yeah Im looking for splinter weapons in my marine codex and coming up empty

Marines my friends...are yesterday...

The Dark Eldar...are tomorrow.

I'd try this:

vulken + assault terminators in LRR
librarian w/nullzone + assault terminators in LRR
2x vindicator
2x rhino melta/multimelta tactical squad
2x mm/hf speeders

Basically this formation is going to be 2 vindicators in the middle, with the LR on either flank and rhinos behind. Speeders can move block and hit the enemy LR as needed.

A torrent of fire is a good thing to have. I personally run Librarian w/ nullzone and 2 vindis. TWC do not exactly scare me.

Ha! beat ya to it by 14 seconds!

Dracos wrote:I'd try this:

vulken + assault terminators in LRR
librarian w/nullzone + assault terminators in LRR
2x vindicator
2x rhino melta/multimelta tactical squad
2x mm/hf speeders

Basically this formation is going to be 2 vindicators in the middle, with the LR on either flank and rhinos behind. Speeders can move block and hit the enemy LR as needed.

I down own alot of those models though... but what do you think about this.

Vulkan
Captain Bike Relic Blade flamer
veteran squad lightning claw x4 flamer x4 storm shield x2 bikes x4
veteran squad lightning claw x4 flamer x4 storm shield x2 razorback heavy flamer
3 bike squads 5 bikes, meltagun x2, combi melta
2 vindicators
6 land speeders multi melta heavy flamer

or I could switch out vulkan for an epistolary librarian w/storm shield. there's so much melta and flamer action going on here that I wonder if the twin linked is even necessary.

I've used TWC extensively and I find null zone and vindicators just don't work effectively as a proper torrent of fire. These 2 are a myth guys.

No decent SW player will spam storm shields enough to warrant null zone's usefulness, let alone catch them out of cover.

Vindicators are just ML bait from long fangs, and in the off chance that they actually hit the TWC, 2 hits and 2 wounds translate to 2 dead fenrisian wolves taken as wargear - and that is assuming they all failed cover saves.

Remember, the TWC dont really need to hit your lines in the first 3 turns - they can do so at a later time, and trust me they will wreak anything that's holding an objective (more often than not).

While you are too busy focusing your long range weaponry at thunderwolves, you are swallowing 15 missile shots every turn

Regarding your list, AF:

The problem is you dont have any long range firepower at all - which is the prime conundrum of TWC. Id seriously reevaluate the vindicators and their use.

Also, regarding your bikes, no multimelta attack bikes? If you dont have points, just throw away those expensive combi meltas. If you are really obsessed with meltas (which I known you do), you can bring a command squad on bikes with 4 melta guns.

Vanguard vets are even an eyesore, thats too much point and 4 stormshields is just asking for bolter/lasgun fire. Seeing as you favor heavy use of HF/MM speeders, it might be a good time to field some of these guys:

Dakka preds that are only 85 points each.
Mortis Dreads that are only 120 pts each.
HB Speeders at 60 pts each(I've already discussed this with you =) )

so.... as a TW player.... what do you find answers them?

I realize I dont have any long range fire power but honestly.... you cant have everything. both versions are very strong in the mobility and short range fire power departments. I just dont see how I can add long range firepower without weakening myself in either of those departments. in the 2nd version I could go for typhoons over heavy flamers since the veterans are carrying so many of them.... the math on twin linked heavy flamers hitting a TW squad is comparable to that on 2 HB doing the same.... but the heavy flamers are more effective against certain other targets.

In the 2nd list I dropped the multi melta attack bikes because I couldnt afford them. they're solid no doubt but where are the points coming from? throwing out 3 combi meltas isnt going to make room for 3 attack bikes......

the vets are in a command squad.... not vanguards.... in both lists the squads run about 300 points. They have FNP they're not going to die from small arms. I think they're worth it because they allow me to spam special weapons. which is the only thing a marine squad is good for TBH, other than holding an objective.

Whats a mortis dread?

Seeing how you can only have one CMD squad I think you should have a pretty easy time finding pts for 3 MMABs

oh you're right.... vulkan doesnt let you take 1.... thanks for pointing that out.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:so.... as a TW player.... what do you find answers them?

I realize I dont have any long range fire power but honestly.... you cant have everything. both versions are very strong in the mobility and short range fire power departments. I just dont see how I can add long range firepower without weakening myself in either of those departments. in the 2nd version I could go for typhoons over heavy flamers since the veterans are carrying so many of them.... the math on twin linked heavy flamers hitting a TW squad is comparable to that on 2 HB doing the same.... but the heavy flamers are more effective against certain other targets.

In the 2nd list I dropped the multi melta attack bikes because I couldnt afford them. they're solid no doubt but where are the points coming from? throwing out 3 combi meltas isnt going to make room for 3 attack bikes......

the vets are in a command squad.... not vanguards.... in both lists the squads run about 300 points. They have FNP they're not going to die from small arms. I think they're worth it because they allow me to spam special weapons. which is the only thing a marine squad is good for TBH, other than holding an objective.

Whats a mortis dread?

Oh, well then there's a problem with your vets as you can only field 1 command squad per captain, which is why I thought they were vanguard vets. But then again, I missed those 4 flamers X_X. Vulkan is a chapter master not a captain.

Ok, first of all, a mortis dread is a rifle dread. The one with 4 Autocannons - it rips transports to shreds from afar - it does the same to TWC through wound saturation.

Now regarding shaving points and the list:

-I'd totally forget about the storm shields and lightning claws from your command squads if I were you - thats 90 points. Ouch. Just keep them in cover, in fact, it wont really hurt when they do die because they would have probably dealt alot of damage before they do. And its not really a good idea to give invul saves to a 5 model squad. Imagine, you are playing with a 300 point squad that has only 5 models in it. you're better off with hammernators. The key is to keep them simple. Spam flamers, then a lightning claw, or a spam meltas and get a TH, and finally theres the Plasma spam - which makes TWC cry.

-Vindicators. There are so much stuff in your army that will wreak face at close range, you don't really need them. Try some Preds for long range fire power. Vindicators are not so hot seemingly because there are too much cover in the game and the scatter die is kinda gimped for marines which have a BS of 4. You turn 66% chance to hit into something like 40% chance to hit due to the scatter dice.

-Land speeder typhoons work well, I cant believe i forgot to mention them. However, if you love your HF/MM speeders alot, you can opt to get Mortis dreads instead.

-Combi meltas. Id take take just 1 attack bike with multimelta over 3 combi meltas any time of the day. But I'd leave this to preference.

-Your army setup suffers from "too few tanks", your tanks will be saturated by AT fire, specifically, your vindicators, thats why I think they are a bad idea.

Now. Regarding fighting TWC, the key is to shoot them enough so that when they do hit your lines you will have relative ease of beating them or delaying them in assault.

TWC absolutely HATE vehicles. Delay us from assault with a vehicle, it hurts us alot. A specific tactic is to block/wall your juicy targets with a sacrificial rhino or any vehicle, and voila - rain them with bolters and all your stuff you have. You will be surprised how awfully easy it is to kill them with just plain bolters.

Combat tactics is key (but will be hard to pull off seeing as the Wolf lord has an initiative of 5). Just let vulkan do all the assault fighting along with your Relic Blade Captain.

Ultimately, a SW list that invests too much on TWC will suffer from all other parts in the FOC - easy prey for your bikers and speeders. Kill the TWC off and the game is probably yours.

Good luck AF.

dangit


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about TH/SS terminators. I'm really starting to think they're over-rated. In the game I played a few hours ago I had a 10 man unit of terminators, 4LC 6 TH/SS got hit by a 6 man assault squad with 3 LC 3 TH/SS, 3 TW cav and a wolf lord. by the time we got to initiative 1 all 6 TH/SS terminators were dead. What is the point of this? If you take so many wounds at init 4 you never even get to swing? If it had been 10 LC terminators the combat would have been a mutual wipe instead of just a 1 sided pwn and I could have at least gotten a draw out of it. maybe even the victory. init 1 sucks. I'm not sure 3++ makes up for it honestly.

A Dakka pred does roughly 1 wound on a TWC/turn and a Rifelman dread will do roughly the same.

If you are tailoring your list (which imo is a bad idea) then Kahn might be a good idea. Str5 I5 LCs will pull a number on the TWC. Especially if you have them eat 8 PG shots before you charge. Expensive as gak though...

tedurur wrote:A Dakka pred does roughly 1 wound on a TWC/turn and a Rifelman dread will do roughly the same.

If you are tailoring your list (which imo is a bad idea) then Kahn might be a good idea. Str5 I5 LCs will pull a number on the TWC. Especially if you have them eat 8 PG shots before you charge. Expensive as gak though...

And assuming you have 3 dakka preds and 2 mortis dreads, you'd put roughly 5 wounds on a TWC. That means 1 dead TW and the rest have 1 wound left - not very good in assault anymore. Especially if its against a RB captain and vulkan. ANd then there's the small arms fire that will surely put more wounds.

well the vet squad is too expensive theres no doubt. 300 points all told. Ive been looking to cycle them out. (now that ive finished modelling them of course) HF/MM speeders are consistent performers I think they should stay in.... working with the models I already have as much as possible maybe this would work....

Captain, bike, relic blade, combi-flamer
Librarian, null zone, gate of infinity, terminator armor, storm shield
Veteran Squad, bikes, flamer x4
Assault Terminator Squad, LC x5, TH/SS x2
Bike Squad x4, bikes x4, meltagun x2, combi-melta, attack bike, multi melta
Land Speeder Squad x3, Land Speeders x2, mm/hf

the librarian and terminators go together of course.

I want to keep the mobility theme because it keeps my options open. I dont like getting pinned in a losing situation when the dice go against me or the situation changes, and I'm already pretty heavily invested $$$ wise in speeders and bikes. for that reason dreads arent a very good fit. also I dont own the dakka preds although I might get 1 to see how it does. they're alot cheaper in the SM codex then I remember them being in the csm codex back when I was playing them.



what do you all think?

Pedro + 30 sternguard. Lots of specialised fire will absolutely slaughter TWC.

tedurur wrote:A Dakka pred does roughly 1 wound on a TWC/turn and a Rifelman dread will do roughly the same.

If you are tailoring your list (which imo is a bad idea) then Kahn might be a good idea. Str5 I5 LCs will pull a number on the TWC. Especially if you have them eat 8 PG shots before you charge. Expensive as gak though...

no Im not going to tailor against him. or not just against him anyway. my challenge is to simultaneously tailor against 1 Razorspam player, 1 guard gunline, and 1 thundercav player. the bikes have to stay in because I know from experience that the guard gunline player cant handle their mobility. I cant even describe how sick I am (still) of having my rhinos shot out from under me game after game after game against that guy. I really believe it was impossible to rhino rush him. just... flat.... impossible. so anyway the bikes solve that problem pretty nicely. Ive only played the razorspam guy once or twice so I havent really started to think about what to do their. I think he outplayed me in the games we did play so I dont want to change my list when the real issue might be the choices I made with it....


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Yuber wrote:

tedurur wrote:A Dakka pred does roughly 1 wound on a TWC/turn and a Rifelman dread will do roughly the same.

If you are tailoring your list (which imo is a bad idea) then Kahn might be a good idea. Str5 I5 LCs will pull a number on the TWC. Especially if you have them eat 8 PG shots before you charge. Expensive as gak though...

And assuming you have 3 dakka preds and 2 mortis dreads, you'd put roughly 5 wounds on a TWC. That means 1 dead TW and the rest have 1 wound left - not very good in assault anymore. Especially if its against a RB captain and vulkan. ANd then there's the small arms fire that will surely put more wounds.

factor in the wolf lord too though. he's wearing 2+ armor. and honestly its that guy who does half the damage in those squads. If there was a way to assassinate him early I think I could handle the other guys with terminators.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

tedurur wrote:A Dakka pred does roughly 1 wound on a TWC/turn and a Rifelman dread will do roughly the same.

If you are tailoring your list (which imo is a bad idea) then Kahn might be a good idea. Str5 I5 LCs will pull a number on the TWC. Especially if you have them eat 8 PG shots before you charge. Expensive as gak though...

no Im not going to tailor against him. or not just against him anyway. my challenge is to simultaneously tailor against 1 Razorspam player, 1 guard gunline, and 1 thundercav player. the bikes have to stay in because I know from experience that the guard gunline player cant handle their mobility. I cant even describe how sick I am (still) of having my rhinos shot out from under me game after game after game against that guy. I really believe it was impossible to rhino rush him. just... flat.... impossible. so anyway the bikes solve that problem pretty nicely. Ive only played the razorspam guy once or twice so I havent really started to think about what to do their. I think he outplayed me in the games we did play so I dont want to change my list when the real issue might be the choices I made with it....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yuber wrote:

tedurur wrote:A Dakka pred does roughly 1 wound on a TWC/turn and a Rifelman dread will do roughly the same.

If you are tailoring your list (which imo is a bad idea) then Kahn might be a good idea. Str5 I5 LCs will pull a number on the TWC. Especially if you have them eat 8 PG shots before you charge. Expensive as gak though...

And assuming you have 3 dakka preds and 2 mortis dreads, you'd put roughly 5 wounds on a TWC. That means 1 dead TW and the rest have 1 wound left - not very good in assault anymore. Especially if its against a RB captain and vulkan. ANd then there's the small arms fire that will surely put more wounds.

factor in the wolf lord too though. he's wearing 2+ armor. and honestly its that guy who does half the damage in those squads. If there was a way to assassinate him early I think I could handle the other guys with terminators.

Guess I didn't factor in the fact that you prolly dont have the models. Your army list is kinda auto lose to TWC due to lack of vehicles and long range firepower. The best I can suggest is TH/SS termies which you do have. Now since you also have that LR, just hit them with that.

Regarding Sv of 2+, wound saturation is still the way to go. No other way around it.

While I am not a space marine player, I do fight Thunder Wolf Cavalry on a regular basis. Besides simply bogging them down with far too many cc squads or assault units, the only real success I have had against Thunder wolves has been with Dreadnoughts and vindicators.
Dreadnoughts, as you know, pack multiple S10 CC attacks and are a good way to kill Thunder wolf lords or his thunderwolf pals. My typical Chaos list has 3 dreads, so this usually serves as a pretty good TWC deterrent to a given area. While you probably don't want to take 3 dreads, I feel a Pair of Iron Clads(even better than Chaos dreads) could really make any Space wolf player think twice about where to send thunderwolves, and Front armor 13 makes an Ironclad pretty hard to kill with Missile launcher spam longfangs.

Vindicators, I feel, are very good denial units, because while the devastating shot we hope for to kill a whole squad often does not come, it really makes the Space wolf player consider the vindicator's position and worry about its ability to potentially murder the squad.

It would change your list a bit, but I feel like 2 Ironclad dreads and 2 Vindicators would solve a lot of your Thunderwolf CAV problems. This little combo also gives you a good armor 13 wall that your teleporting terminators and fast bikes could work with. in 1850, you should still have plenty of points to take the assault terminators, the librarian, the captain on bike, and lots of bike troops.

I hope this helps.

I play against SW quite often with Necron and DE, but ive just started an MEQ army, so I can try and help.

Three things your opponent is using...

The dodgy multiple wound squad rule.
High toughness twc.
2 wounds per model.

Now I would say that a unit of Ass. Terminators with TH/SS out of a LRC or LRR would do the trick, as most marine armies I face have one such squad ninety percent of the time.

Other than this there is a Sternguard Plasma Squad with Drop Pod, Scout squad with sniper rifles, Dreads with two Twin Auto Cannon, or even an Ironclad in a drop pod dropped right next to them. They have to deal with it some how or die.

But keep in mind you can either kill them outright with str 10 or fill them full of holes through bolter fire. Plasma guns do tend to bring them down though, but you do need a lot of them.

Sternguard joined by Lysander wounding on 2's should put a fair amount of wounds on them with shooting and then make them suffer dearly for charging the squad.

If they do charge the sternguard have some Terminators nearby to mop up if the TWC win.

Boom.

Deadshane1 wrote:Marines my friends...are yesterday...

The Dark Eldar...are tomorrow.

BANDWAGON JUMPER!!!!

What about just roadblock those two squads and spend your points on taking the rest of the army apart at a distance. If they are a problem, then avoid them. Terrain and distance will not help much so just give the doggies something to chew on while the rest of the force is taking a pounding.