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I've got quite a few competitive armies under my belt, Rhino rush CSM, Mech Guard, Razor-Spam Angels and Battlewagon Brigade Orks. I'm sort of struggling with my Tyranids a bit to make a truely nasty competitive list. I don't want to go Tervigon, but it appears I may have to go that way. Here's my existing list:

Tyranids "Hive Fleet Kraken" - 2,000 points

HQ

Hive Tyrant bonesword & lashwhip, devourers, old adversary & wings
Tyranid Prime bonesword, lashwhip & deathspitter

Elite

2 x Hive Guard
2 x Hive Guard
2 x Hive Guard

Troops

4 x Warriors scything talons & deathspitters
4 x Warriors scything talons, deathspitters & barbed strangler
18 x Termagants fleshborers
20 x Hormagaunts toxin sacs
20 x Hormagaunts toxin sacs

Heavy Support

Trygon adrenal glands
Trygon adrenal glands
Trygon adrenal glands

I'm thinking maybe switch Hormagaunts to Tervigons, which means the Hive Tyrant has little point so means dropping that. Could replace the Tyrant with another Prime. Though I then have three monstrous creatures which are just going to get shot to ribbons - maybe switch for Carnifexes walking behind Warriors - should get cover then.

Anyway, should be your competitive lists!

I don't have one "set" list, however ALL of my armies contain the following

-1 hive tyrant with paradoxym/preferred enemy for anti-deathstar purposes
-at least 30 gargoyles with poison and adrenal to soak firepower/give cover saves/threaten the front line for first turn alpha strike
-at least 2 squads of 8-10 genestealers with poison to cut down enemy deployment options

I thought the title of the thread was "Let me show you a competitive list"... that would have been insulting.

Mine are never set in stone either. My tactics also change as my lists do. At the moment, i am running a tyrannofex in a 1250 point game (I know right?)

This makes my opponent decide between my aproching swarm (which aproches from many angles I might add... outflank, infaltrate, deepstrike, my deployment zone) What is he going to shoot at? My tyranoofex is there with its S10 assault 2 weapon. Hitting even once freaks my opponents out!

decissions decissions. What to do. that is something your opponent has to do... and he has to do it every turn. making everything a threat is how to win. Giving everything more than 1 job makes the army flexable and usable by all.

Mercer - the thing Ive found with Bug lists is they dont give an overwhelming sense of strength like some other lists (Mech IG, BW Orks, Blood Angels). The reason I think is the way Bug units work with each other isnt evident when reviewing a list. Table-time is needed to really get it to sink in.

A Bug list Ive found that finally approaches the same sense of strength Ive found with Orks, Smurfs and IG is the following:

Flyrant with 2 sets of Devourers, Hive Commander, Leach Essence and Poroxysm

3 Zoanthropes in a Spore

7 Ymgarls

3 sets of 8 Genestealers with a Broodlord

2 sets of 17 Devgaunts in Spores

A Tervigon

A Trygon Prime

The whole things starts off table - the Tervigon outflanks due to Hive Commander. Youve got 6 troops plus spawning. The weak link here really are the Zoanthropes when theres a Hood around. Everything can have an impact when they show up either shooting or assaulting.

wisdomseyes1 wrote:I thought the title of the thread was "Let me show you a competitive list"... that would have been insulting.

Nope. Clearly says Show me...

What is insulting is you making comments like that.

Grundz wrote:I don't have one "set" list, however ALL of my armies contain the following

-1 hive tyrant with paradoxym/preferred enemy for anti-deathstar purposes
-at least 30 gargoyles with poison and adrenal to soak firepower/give cover saves/threaten the front line for first turn alpha strike
-at least 2 squads of 8-10 genestealers with poison to cut down enemy deployment options

I totally agree on Tyrants, such a army boost. Gargoyles yeah, but with poison only though 1 point for adrenal glands is a steal. Stealers are pretty wicked, cost a lot of points so need to use them wisely. I think I need to include them in my lists.

kaiservonhugal wrote:Mercer - the thing Ive found with Bug lists is they dont give an overwhelming sense of strength like some other lists (Mech IG, BW Orks, Blood Angels). The reason I think is the way Bug units work with each other isnt evident when reviewing a list. Table-time is needed to really get it to sink in.

A Bug list Ive found that finally approaches the same sense of strength Ive found with Orks, Smurfs and IG is the following:

Flyrant with 2 sets of Devourers, Hive Commander, Leach Essence and Poroxysm

3 Zoanthropes in a Spore

7 Ymgarls

3 sets of 8 Genestealers with a Broodlord

2 sets of 17 Devgaunts in Spores

A Tervigon

A Trygon Prime

The whole things starts off table - the Tervigon outflanks due to Hive Commander. Youve got 6 troops plus spawning. The weak link here really are the Zoanthropes when theres a Hood around. Everything can have an impact when they show up either shooting or assaulting.

I think that's what my problem is mate. I'm used to hard tough hitting lists, my actual Nid list is a bit flimsy and can be taken apart with the right target priority.

I think your example is pretty sweet, except the Ymgarl and Zoanthropes - I've just found Hive Guard to be much better. Ymgarls are cool though, though don't really add a massive bonus and suck up a important elite slot :(

Hive Tyrant Old adversary TL Devs LW&BS ParaLeech

Prime DBS Dev

--------------

Deathleaper
3HiveGuard
2Zoanthrope

--------------

8 ToxStealers
5x Warrior LWBS TS Devs
Tervigon catalyst clusterspines
10 Termagants
19 hormagaunts

--------------

Trygon
Carnifex 2xTLdev FS
--------------

Harpy TLHVC cluster spines



There ya go. Killpoint games, just try and ram it down their throat.
Capture and control, castle on my objective, use Deathleaper to contest theirs.
Seize ground, a mix of the two, but with tervigon making small gant broods that go to ground on objectives instead of bubble wrapping.

Most successful variant I've ever fielded and that I'll be taking to 2k tournaments this year most likely:

Parasite

2x2 Hive Guard

18 Genestealers

2x10 Termagants

2xTervigons w/Catalyst, AG, TS

20 Gargoyles w/Poison, AG

2 Carnifex w/Dual Talons

2xTrygons

Hmmm I'm thinking of something like that. Just with Hive Tyrant and more Hive Guard.

Could basically swap the Carnies for them but I don't recommend it. Nobz will eat your face if you do since they'll probably get to dictate the charge and then much a unit a turn wihtout much that will stand against them. Just personal experience. I more HG and a HT in this list to start and after a near run experience against a few of our local Ork players (fairly good ones too) I just don't feel comfortable not having a anti-nob tool. Plus they are tough and scary

2 Carnifex w/Dual Talons

Huh? What do these do? Just bullet magnets to draw fire off of other stuff? Most Carnifex builds I see are usually 2xTL-Devourer with a prime attached to eat wounds.
EDIT: Nob blender? Seems like....over-reacting to a single unit in a single army personally, but if they are giving you issues and this is the solution, well, good.

Here's my typical list, plus or minus a unit of genestealers if we go from 1500 (our local tourny size) to 1850 (our preferred playing size)


Winged Tyrant, Old Adversary (been experimenting with TL-devourers on him, very much liking it)

3 Hive Guard
3 Zoanthropes (need 3 to get past psychic defense, hit roll and have a chance to blow stuff up)

24-36 Genestealers in 12 man units, toxin-sacs
Tervigon, AG/TS
10 Termigants

Trygon AG, occasionally prime'ed if I need more synapse.

As of 5 weeks ago I was 12-0-1 with the list, or small variants, including sweeping 2 small local RTTs 3-0 both times. 3 Weeks ago my brother got the new DE codex and tabled me twice in a row....games were OVER by the end of the third turn basically. So I'm in the process of re-thinking the army from the ground up now and have no idea where to start. Stupid poison BS....

Carnifexes serve several purposes in my list.

They can draw fire from my other MC's

They can and do just wreck vehicles in midfield

They are anti-nob (big deal based on popularity of orks)

They form a 3rd wave wrecking crew all on their own.

If I could find 60pts I'd consider the guns but the CC output is crazy w/talons.

With the guns you're adding 12 attacks per model (at lower strength with no AP) while still getting the 4 CC attacks per model.

But missing half the time in cc and unable to hit moving vehicles. Depends on what your looking for.

my list:

HQ:
Prime with two boneswords and talons

Elite:
3 Hivegaurd
6 Ymgarl genestealers
2 venomtropes

Troops:
tervigon with catalyst, toxin sacs and EG
tervigon with catalyst, toxin sacs and EG
10 gaunts
10 gaunts

Heavy:
Tyrannofex with rupture
Trygon with EG
Trygon with EG

24 TL s6 Shots against any vehicle is gonna hurt. At the very least glance the bajeezus out of it, most likely making it unable to move. Why reroll failed to hit when you're going to auto hit after raining huge braineating worms?
2x Dakkafex with a prime to eat wounds or give cover after one dies is the way to go, IMO.

A prime and the 4 required devourers would also eat ~160 points....points don't come from no where and he isn't willing to part with other stuff. Gunless fexes serve as an area denial tool, as most people are not going to be rolling within 12" of them if they can avoid it. I'd bet he keeps his tervigons near them too to keep them safe from HtH units preying on them. The twin-talon also allows him to re-roll all misses against vehicles, and when you need 6's to hit a lot of the time it's a huge bonus. Each hit is almost a guaranteed penetrate in HtH, so getting those hits is huge.

Posted a couple days ago in another thread, but I'll throw it out there again.

HQ
Hive Tyrant - Lash whip and bonesword, Leech Essence, Old Adversary, Paroxysm, Scything talons, Wings
Hive Tyrant - Lash whip and bonesword, Leech Essence, Old Adversary, Paroxysm, Scything talons, Wings

Elites
2x Hive Guards
2x Hive Guards
2x Hive Guards

Troops
10x Termagants
10x Termagants
Tervigon - Catalyst, Cluster spines, Toxin sacs
Tervigon - Catalyst, Cluster spines, Toxin sacs

Fast Attack
20x Gargoyles - Adrenal glands, Toxin sacs
20x Gargoyles - Adrenal glands, Toxin sacs

Heavy Support
Trygon
Trygon

Ok, but Mercer is going to run an old adversary tyrant near that group of devfexen. They're gonna most likely reroll hits anyway. And, like you said, if the vehicle moved at cruising he needs a 6 to hit. With 2 TL devs on each carnifex and one on the tyrant, thats 36 TL s6 shots. Nothing to laugh at, total cost 75 p

Preferred Enemy doesn't let you reroll misses vs vehicles.

@OP: It is inulting that i thought the tipic was insulting and corrected myself...? intresting logic.

This has become a lot about the Fex... Not a bad model... I wouldn't say bad... but at 190 points per devilfex... I wouldn't take it myself. And glancing realy realy realy hurts on a TLdevourer... -3 to damage chart? No thanks. Though the number of s6 attacks... it will only be a -1 penilty... the number of attacks giving you a good chance of hurting your opponent.

People take duel scythes. I've seen it happen. Vehicle hunting is what it does... And with the Fexes new rep... everyone seems to ignore it unti the last second. If I ran a fex behind Tyranid warriors across the board... people seem to shoot the warriors more because the warriors *can* hurt the vehicles... Target priority is not something a lot of people are good at... (And please don't say 'Well I am and people around here are smart!' because really... it doesn't matter. Play a random person and see if they shoot at the warriors in a vehicle heavy list. Remeber that not everyone knows the statistics of every army... from experiance that is...

Here's a thought

I don't like fexes, lack of fleet, and lower wound count keeps them out of my list, since a trygon can do the same job, for slightly more points, and is tougher. I just cant pay those points for a 4 wound MC with no invulnerable when i could get a 6 wound one.

i've thought about attaching a trygon prime with regen, but now you are in >trygon prime territory, still with an I1 critter, my local scene isn't very meched up and I still see gargoyles or genestealers being enough, in numbers, to glance down the vehicles I do see.

so my question is, why /do/ you pick carnies over a trygon(or trygon prime)? The only advantage I can see if that carnies are easier to give cover saves to.

Because I'm all Old School and a stampeding `Fex is just far cooler in my mind than an over sized worm!

Carnies are for st9 honestly. A trygon isn't even 50/50 that when it hits a raider it'll penetrate. A Carnie is...slightly higher Also like I said Nobz are a major issue against Nids and Carnies handle them like nobodies business. And Carnage hit a lot of it on the head when he mentioned area denial and Tervigon support.

I think a big part of your opinion on them comes from a not so mech-up environment Grundz. Though I'll admit that for some they are an aquired taste

On the Land Raider hits, a Trygon is not as effective at killing it as a Carnifex, based on straight penetration ability. However it's not a huge advantage by the Carnifex unless the Land Raider is sitting still. The difference maxes out at about 22-23%.

1 Dmg Table Result of 5/6 Stationary Combat Cruising
Trygon: 28.2%/28.2% 21.9%/21.9% 9.49%/9.49%
Carnifex: 47.3%/47.3% 37.6%/37.6% 17.0%/17.0%
Trygon w/ AG: 39.5%/39.5% 31.2%/31.2% 13.9%/13.9%
Carnifex w/ AG: 52.6%/52.6% 42.3%/42.3% 19.5%/19.5%

Im including Ymgarls and Zoa's instead of Hive Guard because of how the list works - everything starts off table and DS's in - If I could HG in Pods I would.

Grundz wrote:Here's a thought

I don't like fexes, lack of fleet, and lower wound count keeps them out of my list, since a trygon can do the same job, for slightly more points, and is tougher. I just cant pay those points for a 4 wound MC with no invulnerable when i could get a 6 wound one.

i've thought about attaching a trygon prime with regen, but now you are in >trygon prime territory, still with an I1 critter, my local scene isn't very meched up and I still see gargoyles or genestealers being enough, in numbers, to glance down the vehicles I do see.

so my question is, why /do/ you pick carnies over a trygon(or trygon prime)? The only advantage I can see if that carnies are easier to give cover saves to.

With no invulns... missile launchers and meltas take out both the fex and the Trygon without issues. Giving cover to the fex is a huge deal... as it is basically the equivalent to an invuln (unless you know any ap3 templates...?) But for the points... trygon all the way. Also, with AG (if landraiders are a factor... that basically means high points... which is when i become okay with AG.) they become fairly useful against LR. 7 is an average roll for 2D6

wisdomseyes1 wrote:@OP: It is inulting that i thought the tipic was insulting and corrected myself...? intresting logic.

This has become a lot about the Fex... Not a bad model... I wouldn't say bad... but at 190 points per devilfex... I wouldn't take it myself. And glancing realy realy realy hurts on a TLdevourer... -3 to damage chart? No thanks. Though the number of s6 attacks... it will only be a -1 penilty... the number of attacks giving you a good chance of hurting your opponent.

People take duel scythes. I've seen it happen. Vehicle hunting is what it does... And with the Fexes new rep... everyone seems to ignore it unti the last second. If I ran a fex behind Tyranid warriors across the board... people seem to shoot the warriors more because the warriors *can* hurt the vehicles... Target priority is not something a lot of people are good at... (And please don't say 'Well I am and people around here are smart!' because really... it doesn't matter. Play a random person and see if they shoot at the warriors in a vehicle heavy list. Remeber that not everyone knows the statistics of every army... from experiance that is...

Yeah, think about it. You're saying I'm insulting you but you're insulting me by saying I'm insulting you, which is false because there wasn't a insult from me..

Devilfexes rule btw!

Devilfexes have their place. They are a solid addition but depend on the army. Much like the Fex in general. I think the fex is great cause you can tailor it a bit more for what your lacking.

Yeah that is the beauty, while the Trygon is a solid and fast moving c.c unit with some fire support the Fex can be made to a much more better shootier role but still have the same close combat affectiveness, minus re-roll thanks to talons but old adversary....?

Carnifexes are still good if used to their new strength - taking multiples in a squad! The enemy has to focus a lot of their anti-tank firepower on a brood of carnifexes to knock it down, a lot of which is most effective at 12". I have found that if you run a brood of these wonderful s9 tank chewing beasts, it works well to go ahead and invest the points in 2 trygons to run alongside them and a pair of venomthropes to move and run every turn trying to keep pace with the other beasties. by the time the trygons can assault they won't need the cover saves as bad (because they'll be screwing up the enemy's program, and the carnifexes on average are a turn behind the trygons on getting into cc, depending on how aggro your opponent decides to be.

I played a Dark Angel army using Deathwing terminators (2 Land Raiders, 40 terminators, some odds and ends - 2500 pts.) and using the spore cloud formation with fexes and 'gons, I got him to play very defensively and castle/turtle up in a seize ground mission. By the end of the game both sides had some big losses, with the exception that my tervigons (i took 3 at 2500, all troops) and their spawned babies held 4 of the 5 objectives, securing me a major victory for the mission.

With proper support, i like carnifexes a lot.