All I wanted was terrain, all I got was misery.... or How EpicTerrain took me for a diry ride.....

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**CitizenPrime**

The advertising emails started from Epicterrain.

"New Monthly Specials"

"Huge Terrain Sale"

So I'm thinking this place is doing alot of terrain business, I'll inquire about an order...

I send an email and this is the communication that insued.

--- On Thu, 9/2/10, Dennis & Chellee @ Epic Terrain <epicterrain@coolsite.net> wrote:

From: Dennis & Chellee @ Epic Terrain <epicterrain@coolsite.net>
Date: Thursday, September 2, 2010, 7:25 AM

Adam,

Thanks for your interest in our terrain. We do have a discount for large orders. If you order $150 or more in terrain then you get a 15% discount. As for the 1/2 inch grassy hills, making them different sizes to stack wouldn't be a problem. They would be $8 a set instead of 7 though because some are a little bigger and it takes more materials. We could also do the alien trees in one platform instead of 4. Would you want the wall in the center of the trees? As far as the river is concerned. We would need other information, are you wanting just a painted river or resin? Resin is a bit more expensive. Also are you wanting it to reaach the entire table and what is your table size? Would. you ike a bridge going over the river? Would you like small pieces of cover throughout the river. Let us know. We look forward to hearing from you.

Chellee
Epic Terrain
Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

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Chellee,

I wouldn't need the barrier in the woods, just the one 1/2in high piece with the trees about 6x6 in a roughly round shape. What would that cost?
Also, I'd like the river to be resin, maybe 3 inches wide, in about 6-8in sections with flock around the edges, perhaps with a fork section and possibly a bend section. Perhaps 36-48 inches in all. What kind of ballpark estimate do you think about that? (No bridge needed)
I'm probably gonna get about 4 sets of the 1/2 grassy hills, especially since you can make them stackable, but I'll wait to order them and the fences when we work out the whole order. Can't wait!

Oh, and I play on a 4 x 6 table, but sometimes combine it with another.

ADam

--- On Thu, 9/2/10, Dennis & Chellee @ Epic Terrain <epicterrain@coolsite.net> wrote:

Date: Thursday, September 2, 2010, 11:07 PM

Hey adam, ok 4 sets of grassy hills will be $32. For the alien tree piece it would be $30. How many sets of fences were you wanting? The river piece would be $75 ($20 of that would go towards resin). Shipping for all of this is going to run about $25. But this would include insurance on your boxes. let us know what you think. Also the river will need more prep time because the resin will need to sit. Looking forward to hearing from you..

Chellee
Epic Terrain
Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

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Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 18:31:00 -0700 (PDT)

Hey Mrs. Chellee,

Ok, let's do this, make it 8 sets of 1/2in grassy hills for $64 (Varying in size)

A set of 4 fences - $14.00

The river we discussed - $75.00

-

$153.00 +$25.00 shipping -15% discount

(cancel the alien wood piece)

What do you think?

ADam

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Adam,

Sounds great! A little disappointed. That you don't want the tree set. Lol I was kind of looking forward to seeing what they would look like on one platform. Lol. But anyway, the 15% discount would be $22.95. So your total is going to be $155.05. I will send you a paypal invoice for the order. We always collect payment before starting special orders. Thanks so much!! Looking forward to making your terrain. Talk to you soon.

Chellee
Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

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So, everything looks good. I send them money through Paypal on Sept 4th, for $155.05 with the a reply that reads:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the payment. Dennis has already started on your river and I will be getting started on the hills and fences tonight!!

Chellee
Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

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So now I'm really excited about getting some sweet terrain. I think it was a good price and so far communication is amazing!

On Sept 19th I send:

Hey guys,

Just wondering how the terrain is coming. Played a game last night and can't wait to get the terrain from ya'll! Can I get an E.T.A>? Thanks a bunch, ADam

PS - I may be getting a friend to place an order with you soon.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the same day I get:

Hey there! Sorry you haven't heard from us. It should all be ready by the end of the week to go out! If we can get it out sooner we will.
Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

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Then on Sept 28th I send:

Hey again,
Sorry I'm getting a bit anxious... Have you shipped yet? Hubcon is this weekend and I was hoping to take my terrain.

ADam

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To which I get a reply the same day:

I will get the river out tomorrow priority mail. I'm hoping to have the hills and fences out thursday. I'm really sorry. We had major flooding this past weekend and had to leave our house for a few days. I truly apologize for the wait!!

Thanks

Chellee
Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I sent an immediate reply:

Sorry to hear that! Don't I feel like a turd for bringin it up now. Hope ya'll are ok. Don't feel like you have to rush anything. I went through Katrina. You take care of your flooding, my nerd issues can wait. Again, good luck and best wishes.

ADam
Sent from my Cellular South BlackBerry® Smartphone

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I received the river sometime around the 11th because I sent the following on Oct 11th:

So is the rest of my order coming this week?
Sent from my Cellular South BlackBerry® Smartphone

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On the same day i received:
Yes Those 8 sets of stackables were way more time consuming then I thought they were going to be. The glue on the fences is drying and I will have them painted in the morning. Dennis wanted to know if you liked the river. We hadn't heard anything from you about it.
Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

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Trying to be as nice as possible I replied:

Oh yes, the river is very nice. It is getting a lot of attention in my gaming circle. I hope you kept the dimensions as I may need to expand to it in the future if ya'll are willing.

Adam
Sent from my Cellular South BlackBerry® Smartphone

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On Oct 26th I send:

To be honest, I don't know where to start or how to begin....

The payment for my terrain went through on either Sept 3 or 4th.

I asked about a delivery ETA on Sept 19th.

The river was shipped on Sept 29th.

It is now Oct 26th, and I haven't received the rest of the order.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No response. I send another email on Nov 9th:

Hello,

I didn't get a reply to my last email. I would like to know if I will be receiving the terrain that I purchased from you off your website more than 2 months ago. I have received a portion of it, and I'd like the rest. We had good communication prior to the last email. Could you please let me know what your plan is regarding this transaction. Please. Please. With sugar on top. Please.

ADam
Sent from my Cellular South BlackBerry® Smartphone

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Then I get on the same day:

I am very sorry. I have not received an email that we didn't respond to. Yes you will most definitely be getting the rest of your terrain. I truly apologize for the wait. it is in 2 more boxes and I will be able to ship them on saturday, after dennis gets paid. Again I am sorry.

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On Nov 23th I sent:

Soooooo,

Chellee, here it is. Thanksgiving week. I'm guessing you didn't ship my terrain on the 13th like you said. What is the problem now? This is beyond rediculous. Beyond anything acceptable. I want my terrain so that I can put this entire fiasco behind me.

I have to wonder... do the rest of your customers have to go through this much to get their terrain? If not, why me? If so, how do you manage to stay afloat?

I'm sorry for any problems in your life ahead of time, but come on. Please, complete this transaction that is MONTHS overdue. My grandmother, who has more patience that anyone, would be pissed over this.

ADam

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On Dec 2nd I sent:

Dennis,

This is Adam. My order has not yet been received. It has been months. I received the river, but I still have not received the rest of my order. Can you help me with this? What can we do to rectify this. I just want to end this. Please. Please reply to this email. Please. I am at a loss for words and am at a standstill. Can you help?

Adam
Sent from my Cellular South BlackBerry® Smartphone
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On Dec 7th I received another advertisement email from Epic Terrain so I sent:

Well,

Can I get a response? I've just filed a complaint in Paypal. Paypal wants us to communicate before I proceed. This is my attempt to reconcile our transaction. Either send my stuff or refund me $85.00, since I did get the river. I think that's about right.
Why did ya'll decide to stop communicating? And for that matter, why did ya'll decide not to complete this transaction. Chellee told me there was a flood near your house back in Sept-Oct, but I haven't heard any new excuses in the last 2 months.
I'm gonna need a respond to this email, immediately.

Disapointed in fellow gamers,

ADam
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On Dec 22nd I sent:

I've given up on ever getting my terrain at this point since I paid you at the beginning of Sept and its almost Christmas. I think you or Dennis have actually posted half of my remaining order for sale on your website. I don't know what went wrong, but I don't know what to do. I've tried to get my money back through paypal, which isn't happening. I've begged for a refund or my terrain... IGNORED. So I guess all I can do is take a loss and make a concerted effort to let everyone else know in the table top gaming community know just how poorly I've been treated and how horrible the service is at Epic Terrain. I feel the need to apologize for this, but I don't know why.

Have a Merry Christmas,

hope you can justify your horrible dealings to your conscience,

ADam

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I still get advertising emails from Epic Terrain.
I haven't received any communication since Nov 9th. I know they have received my emails, because they were quick to reply in the beginning. And if they didn't they still should have sent my terrain. Paypal said I must handle this dispute with the other party, so I won't be getting my money back through them. So I'm out money, terrain, and what I thought would be a really good facet for terrain in the future.

And so fellow Dakkites.... I ask you:

What do you think?

And what do I do?

CitizenPrime
ADam

**Elmodiddly**

Since you have filed the compaint via Paypal that is your course of action.

Legal action will take months and be costly and that is about all you can do.

**CitizenPrime**

Elmodiddly wrote:Since you have filed the compaint via Paypal that is your course of action.

Legal action will take months and be costly and that is about all you can do.

Yeah, and Paypal said there was nothing they could do.

I'm really over a barrel here.

I think the worst part is not having an explanation as to why there was such a breakdown in the whole process.

**blackclaw1**

If you have a contact phone number phone them , another course of action is inquire through a different email address to see if its just you they are ignoring , tbh , it seems to me liek they've just decided to ignore you and take the hit . like i said email them through another address , try to phone them , or try and find an address and take a look if you can#

'claw

**CitizenPrime**

Yeah, i've emailed at least 3 different email addresses. No phone numbers or addresses to be found. Only a name, Dennis Gates and his wife Chellee.

If they have decided to just take the hit, I'm appalled. That is the kind of thing I can't phathom. That's just wrong.

**Ma55ter_fett**

That sucks, and even paypal bailed on you...

Well other than spreading your story around on various wargameing forums to discredit their name I do not know what you can do.

**Kilkrazy**

There are two different reasons why these things can go bad.

1. The people concerned are real scammers, out to gouge you for as much as they can.

2. The people concerned are genuine hobbyists, looking to make some spare cash, but they can't cope with the amount of work because they haven't worked out a proper plan. They find either they can't fill orders quickly enough, or they spend the cash received for incoming orders on filling prior orders, or something like that. They mean well, but it all spirals out of control.

PayPal will not usually accept complaints after 45 (?) days, so you may be out $85 dollars.

Try being persistent and polite. No.2 cases are not actually dishonest people, and will often do their best to satisfy all customers in the long run.

**Mannahnin**

Agree with Kilkrazy. Based on the emails, and the fact that you got part of the order, they sound more like #2s to me.

They may have genuinely missed one of your emails somewhere in there too.

Not saying that it's in any way your fault, but you may have scared/annoyed them with the hostile tone of some of your emails as well. It may be worth a try to keep at them with more sympathy and patience. They may come through in the end.

**CitizenPrime**

I have to agree with you there Mannahnin, but its so hard to not get mad. And even harder to not let it show in my emails, especially since I'm now being ignored. But I'm going to try a nicer email.... I guess.... next week. Maybe I should send them a Christmas email....

nahhhhhhhhh.

**Mannahnin**

Oh, sure. No reason you can't get mad. It's just one of those things where when dealing with a business transaction, you want to keep it as professional as you can and not let too much anger show.

Is this the site?
http://epicterrain.webs.com/

Did you try directory assistance or looking them up? Presumably there was a return address on the package you got. A phone call or paper letter might help.

**Grakmar**

Sadly, it looks like their website has been abandoned. I poked through their forums a bit and they haven't posted anything since October and their ebay listings are zero. They also mention your river piece and say that they're going to post pictures on the website, but never do.

I assume they had a major life event happen and have ended this project. Hopefully this is just a temporary issue and they'll return soon.

**chaos0xomega**

You should have an address from the box that the rivers came in... just saying...

**CitizenPrime**

The box has long been gone. Remember, when I received it everything was still on the up and up. I had no reason to even suspect a need to look at the return address. I was like a kid in a candystore ripping into the package.

And they are still doing business because I am still getting new advertisements for their terrain. I think they may be changing sites though since I saw a new email address (I replied to it today).

Here is the email I got today that sent me over the top. Some of it looks like the stackable terrain I ordered:

Hey guys. We have a terrain grouping for sale, this is one of a kind and will never be made again. Everything in the pics is included with it. We will be accepting offers on the grouping through December 27th, the best offer received during that time will be the winner of the terrain!! Don't miss out, like we said we will not be remaking this terrain. There will be $10 shipping on top of what you offer. Simply email your offers to warhoundstudios@aol.com, and we will get back to everyone on the 28th.

http://s798.photobucket.com/albums/yy269/dennisg1972/terrain/Terrain%20for%20Sale/

Dennis & Chellee
http://epicterrain.webs.com/

Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is the email i sent to warhoundstudios@aol.com:

Hey Dennis,

My name is Adam. You may remember me as the guy that ordered that river that you've got posted in your photo bucket. I still have not received the rest of my order. Can you please communicate with me about this? I just want the terrain that I've already purchased or a refund of the $85 worth that I've never received.

Why is it that you sent me such a nice river, but then never followed up with the rest of the order?

Adam

**Chowderhead**

Walk up to the store with a cop. That'll scare the HELL out of them.

Or just a shotgun. Either way works.

In all honesty, I was thinking "Sue them. You have E-Mail evidence, Paypal has records, and you would win."

**KingCracker**

Yea, sue them and rack up a couple hundred dollars in court fees for something he needs an $85 rebate on

That sucks man. Id try a few things. Looking for a phone number of some kind. Or making up a few different email accounts and write them on general things to try and get their attention again. Maybe they just recognize your email addy and simply wont read it/ignored you

**CitizenPrime**

I'm definitely being ignored.

And I don't want a confrontation. They just make me feel awkward.

**Wolfun**

You could always go through small claims court as long as you have the proof.

**Peter Wiggin**

Well, if its any consolation I just sent an email with a link to this thread in it to every email address I could find linked to that website (lol only 3) telling them they may want to take a look before it gets reposted to a bunch of wargaming forums.

I'm bored enough to do it, plus even if they are having some jacked up stuff happen in life....they NEED to communicate with their customers. Just my opinion.

**Owain**

Peter Wiggin wrote:Well, if its any consolation I just sent an email with a link to this thread in it to every email address I could find linked to that website (lol only 3) telling them they may want to take a look before it gets reposted to a bunch of wargaming forums.

I'm bored enough to do it, plus even if they are having some jacked up stuff happen in life....they NEED to communicate with their customers. Just my opinion.

I just did the same before seeing this. Maybe we should take up a mass mailing?

**OoieGoie**

2 people running their own business can be chaos around xmas.

Personally I would wait about 2 months then reply with a firm email.

**Infreak**

It's been almost 5 months since the order was made. I doubt X-mas has anything to do with this extended delay. Hopefully you'll eventually get the rest of your order, but TBH I would consider this a loss at this point.

**SilverMK2**

I had a PM from another dakka user asking in August if I had ordered anything from them or had any contact details for them as they had not received their order (from 3 months previously) as I'd posted on their website a few times when they first started up.

If you want their name, let me know and I will PM you so you can contact them possibly see what happened with their order.

I've PM'd them with a link to this thread.

**CitizenPrime**

UPDATE

I have been contacted. There was a reply this morning to an email I sent last night:

We have your stuff all together and done. I am very sorry it has taken so long, we're not going to even try to explain how or why it happened. Because no matter what I would be upset if I were in your shoes. But we will take it to the post office today before we leave town for the holidays. I do Hope you enjoy and like the terrain.

Chellee
Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

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So, here I am again with bated breath.

I will keep you posted.

And I can't help but think I have alot of you to thank for sending those emails. But I'll thank everyone involved more indepthly once I have package in hand...

.

**Peter Wiggin**

Post pics when it arrives, and hope it looks sweet!

Glad to be part of the internet commandos.

**Happygrunt**

Alright, so things are looking better now. Good to hear that.

**Mr. Burning**

Good to see this being resolved.

Small retailers take note.

Mistakes happen, but never be afraid to say they do.

If a customer has a problem and is still contacting you it means they want dialogue and would be happy for YOU to resolve the situation.

Be very worried if there is no dialogue at all.

**Mannahnin**

Excellent points, Mr. B.

I hope nothing truly terrible has happened to Dennis and Chellie, and that it was just the common issue of hobbyists getting in over their heads and overwhelmed. That said, there's almost never an excuse for cutting off communication like that.

Awesome news, CP! Hope all arrives well, and please post pics!

**Mr. Burning**

Stupid Spuddy handed Mr. Burning!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mannahnin wrote:Excellent points, Mr. B.

I hope nothing truly terrible has happened to Dennis and Chellie, and that it was just the common issue of hobbyists getting in over their heads and overwhelmed. That said, there's almost never an excuse for cutting off communication like that.

Awesome news, CP! Hope all arrives well, and please post pics!

I work for a small family business and we had a major discussion about direction this week. I drove home the point that small business doesn't have to mean amateur.

Sorry for dragging this OT!

**Ma55ter_fett**

Hope you actually get it this time.

Public image being what it is (and the word of mouth factor) I am not surprised that a few well intentioned emails from various dakka users managed to get things moving again.

**snurl**

Let us know when it arrives.