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I'm just curious what my fellow Dakkites feel are the best CC unit in the Troop FOC slot on the charge? I like my bloodletters WS 5 I 5 S 5 on the charge and all power weapons but then again I may be playing favorites

I'd have to go with Nobs. And if not Nobs, the standard Ork Boy. 4 Attacks on the charge at WS4, STR4, 6 points apiece.

30 slugga boyz on the charge are a thing of beauty. At only 215 points for 30 with PK Nob they're a bargain, and rolling up to 120 attacks is awesome. Who needs power attacks when you've got volume like that

Yep pretty much Orks. Nothing like a screaming 31 wound Powerklaw rushing towards your army.

Deathwing mounted in a Crusader Raider with Standard and Apothecary. Or a DC Dread.

If cost was no object, then 30 death company all armed with power weapons is a pretty fearsome assault unit. Pretty sure that works out to 120 strength 5 init 5 WS 5 power attacks from a unit with 3+ armor and feel no pain.

Why not throw some dual Thunderhammers in there?

Some of the ones I'd have said have been mentioned but I'll definitely throw in stealers.

If points are no object:

20 stealers + broodlord + all upgrades sets you back 516 points.

WS6, S5, I7. Rerolling 1's to hit and most wounds.
Broodlord is ws7, S6, I8 and will cause ID.

57 of those attacks + 5 broodlord attacks

rather devestating

n0t_u wrote:Why not throw some dual Thunderhammers in there?

lol, how much would a unit of 30 death company sporting those cost? 2400?

Cost is an object. Speculating about such expensive units is irrelevant since the best close combat unit will always be the best close combat unit for the cost.

Probably Ork Boyz. Cheap, can be taken in large numbers, pretty good at CC.

Nurglitch wrote:Cost is an object. Speculating about such expensive units is irrelevant since the best close combat unit will always be the best close combat unit for the cost.

You've misinterpreted the use of the word cost/points in this case I believe. You appear to be referencing the cost of one unit vs another whereas we (or at least, I) was referencing cost relating to "normal" army point figures. Case in point: I wouldn't field a 20 genestealer unit costing over 500points in a 1500 point game but if that cost was not part of the discussion then it is a very good CC unit.


On topic: Daemonettes I would say are up there if not simply due to rending and I6.

Khorne Beserkers I must say beat face.

Unlike Ork Boyz they have an armour save likely to protect them.

Plus Berzerkers are one of the few units that can eat an Ork Boyz mob in a single turn.

I'll go the opposite for not downright troop domination in CC but survival in light of their other abilities.

Dire Avengers with SS/PW defend exarch. They take away attacks and will shoot the $#@@ out of you until they are in CC. Then they don't just disappear like most shooty troop units.

Dedicated Nurgle marines - good shooty, 3+ sv and FNP. Bring your power weapons to the party or don't expect to come home.

Nurgle deamons - no shootyness but T5 and FNP with a 5++ save and then poisoned weapons. Ouch.

Too bad guardsman sucks at CC compared to their Range, otherwise you can take a Platoon of Guardsman with every single squad maxed out (that comes to over 100 bodies for one FoC Troop Choice at a rather modest cost).

Further to my first post I'd actually have to stick with stealers. Despite not having the most amount of attacks it is likely that they'd go first (same time as daemonettes) and therefore negate many of the attacks of the opponent effectively increasing their defense.

30 Death company w/jump packs and 60 thunder hammers.
2850 points for 120x WS5 S9 no armour attacks.
they can:
kill 67 marines.
destroy 13 LRBT's that travelled 6".
kill ghazghkull 12 times over.
kill calgar 6 times over.
you get the point.
vs 20 genestealers?
'stealers hit 40, wound 20 (7 of which rend) and kill 11.
the remaining 19 DC hit 25, wound 21 and kill 21. all dead.
including the broodlord? he kills 2 and dies. (21 wounds, 20 dead 'stealers, 1 dead broodlord).
I win.

shrike wrote:30 Death company w/jump packs and 60 thunder hammers.
2850 points for 120x WS5 S9 no armour attacks.
they can:
kill 67 marines.
destroy 13 LRBT's that travelled 6".
kill ghazghkull 12 times over.
kill calgar 6 times over.
you get the point.
vs 20 genestealers?
'stealers hit 40, wound 20 (7 of which rend) and kill 11.
the remaining 19 DC hit 25, wound 21 and kill 21. all dead.
including the broodlord? he kills 2 and dies. (21 wounds, 20 dead 'stealers, 1 dead broodlord).
I win.

Awesome numbers but I will point out the slight flaw in your 30 DC vs 20 stealer comparison... the 20 stealers pointed up as I mentioned are ~500 points whereas you're a tad under 3000

Just saying... anyone care to mathhammer the same DC against 80 stealers with 4 broodlords? points would be similar then (as apparently they are relevant )

ah. You would kill 44 then. hmm.
WAIT! With FNP, you'd kill 22.
then those 8 would kill 13, and the remaining...67...would...wipe them...out...hmm.

Except they would hit before...

I'm going to ignore that.

Nurglitch wrote:Plus Berzerkers are one of the few units that can eat an Ork Boyz mob in a single turn.

True, though it depends who charges who. If the boyz assault the berzerkers, the boyz win without losing more than 1/3 of their numbers in the process. If the berzerkers get the charge, they'll win but be mauled quite a bit in the process (losing 5-6 or so.)

shrike wrote:ah. You would kill 44 then. hmm.
WAIT! With FNP, you'd kill 22.
then those 8 would kill 13, and the remaining...67...would...wipe them...out...hmm.

Are you factoring in that Rending voids FnP... I think it does at least...

BTW forgot to in that last one, but the point stands- for thier points, 'stealers are better than DC in CC, even with FNP and dual TH and JP. Wow that was a lot of abbreviations.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Too bad guardsman sucks at CC compared to their Range, otherwise you can take a Platoon of Guardsman with every single squad maxed out (that comes to over 100 bodies for one FoC Troop Choice at a rather modest cost).

At that mass, you could do some really good damage. 250 pts for 100 men. So say...two platoons, pair up every infantry squad so you have 5 20 man squads with flamers and sgts with good weapons. Will lose a lot of men, but it would be fun ^^.

Culler:

If a full mob of Slugga Boyz (29 Boys with Sluggas, 1 Nob w/Power Klaw) charges the Berzerkers (9 Berzerkers, 1 Skull Champion w/Power Weapon), then Berzerkers attack first with 27 attacks, 4 Power Weapon attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+, saving on 6+/- . That's 18 hits, 9 wounds, 8 unsaved wounds from Berzerkers to be expected.

That means 20 Boyz attack, for 84 attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 4+, saving on 3+. That's 42 hits, 21 wounds, 7 unsaved wounds. The Skull Champion has 3 attacks hitting on 3+, for two hits, wounding on 2+, two unsaved wounds. The Nob has 4 attacks hitting on 4+, for two hits, wounding on 2+, two unsaved wounds.

The final score to be expected is 11:9 in favour of the Berzerkers. The Orks can expect to lose another two Boyz to No Retreat, leaving them with 16 Boyz and a Nob. The Berzerkers are left with the Skull Champion.

Next round 16 Boyz with 48 attacks, 24 hit, 8 wound, 3 unsaved wounds expected.

If the Berzerkers charge, then that's 36 attacks from the goons, 3+ to hit, 24 hits, 3+ to wound, 16 wounds, 14 unsaved wounds. 15 Ork Boyz attack back with 45 attacks, 4+ to hit, 23 hits, 5+ to wound, 8 wounds, 3+ to save, 3 unsaved wounds. Then the Skull Champion has 4 attacks...2 unsaved wounds. And the Nob has 3 attacks...1 unsaved wound. The Berzerkers win 14:5. The Orks suffer 7 more No Retreat wounds, taking them down to 8 Boyz and 1 Nob.

Next round 4 Berzerkers have 12 attacks, 8 hits, 4 wounds, 4 unsaved wounds. 4 Boyz attack back, 12 attacks, 6 hits, 2 wounds, 1 unsaved wound. The Skull Champion and the Nob cause 2 and 1 unsaved wounds apiece. The Berzerkers can be expected to win 6:2, and the Orks would be expected to fail their Morale test at a rate of 0.92, and get caught in a Sweeping Advance at a rate of 0.83.

This abstracts several important factors (considered atomically, since we're talking about units rather than armies): the first being that neither side shoots before charging. The Berzerkers can seriously thin the Orks beforehand with their Bolt Pistols. The second factor relates to the fact that some of the Ork Sluggas won't be in range, and often not all the Orks will within 2" of an Ork in base to base contact - such as when they're channeled by impassible terrain, or more likely, the Berzerker's Rhino.

The ability to concentrate force is genuinely worth points. You can't shave units like you could in 4th, but similar leveraging can be accomplished with more difficulty and cost (but higher payoff).

Several factors go into a good assault unit, considered atomically:

1. Ability to engage multiple targets, from vehicles to hordes.

2. Ability to engage first: both Initiative and Movement are important, particularly when Furious Charge and other rules are involved.

3. Ability to shoot. Seriously underestimated, particularly when it reduces the enemy's ability to attack back, or negates one unit's ability to engage first (such as attacking units in difficult terrain).

4. Footprint: this is the density of the unit, factoring its vulnerability to blasts, flanking units, and so on.

I'm going to ignore elites that can be turned into troops with a specific HQ (so no Deathwing, oganwing or Nobz). That being said, I would say there are four that really stand out for me:

Ork Boyz:
Pros: Cheap and able to be taken in large units. A good sized unit can roll through pretty much anything.

Cons: need numbers, and the charge. Without large numbers, they do not cause muah damage, and they struggle if they are charged.

Genestealers:
Pros: WS and I 6 allows these guys to hit pretty much anything first and easily. Rending cuts through enemy armour, and their upgrades make them even deadlier.

Cons: Fragile, expensive, no assault grenades. Not a good Combination.

Khorne Berzerkers:
Pros: Lots of attacks, heavy armour.

Cons: Expensive.

Tyranid Warriors:
Pros: Lots of Wounds, Lots of attacks. A combination of Boneswords and toxin sacks rips through any well-armoured, high toughness foe.

Cons: Susceptable to instant death, Expensive.

I do not think that you could call one of these units "Best". Khorne Berzerkers eat Orks, The Hidden poweclaw hammers the warriors, and Boneswords laugh at 3+ saves. Meanwhile, Genestealers can beat any of the other units in good conditions, but cannot take the Hit.

Considered as parts of their respective armies, the units you list can each have their respective weaknesses ameliorated.

Genestealers, for example, share an army with lots of pinning weapons, and expendable bugs that can lock enemies in close combat, denying the I1 penalty that Assault Grenades usually handle. Fleet also helps them close.

Ork Boyz have Grots that they can use to screen charges and contribute cover. Yeah, they're 2/3 the cost of Fearless Orks, but better to lose 2/3rds of a unit of Orks to a charge than 3/3rds.

Khorne Berzerkers are expensive, but share an army with Summoned Lesser Daemons, which give you a very cost effective way of protecting objectives while your Berzerkers chase down and kill stuff.

Tyranid Warriors are susceptible to Instant Death, and can be joined by a Tyranid Prime that can catch the odd S8-9 attack that would kill a Warrior, occupy the Spore Cloud of a Venomthrope (or gain cover from Termagants...), and they don't have to be expensive. Mine are 40pts apiece - Scything Talons, Deathspitters, Adrenal Glands. Consider Bolters:

1 dead Terminator = 1 unsaved wound = 6 wounds = 12 hits = 18 BS4 shots

1 dead Warrior = 3 unsaved wounds = 6 wounds = 12 hits = 18 BS4 shots

guiltl3ss wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Too bad guardsman sucks at CC compared to their Range, otherwise you can take a Platoon of Guardsman with every single squad maxed out (that comes to over 100 bodies for one FoC Troop Choice at a rather modest cost).

At that mass, you could do some really good damage. 250 pts for 100 men. So say...two platoons, pair up every infantry squad so you have 5 20 man squads with flamers and sgts with good weapons. Will lose a lot of men, but it would be fun ^^.

250 will only get you 50 guardsmen, they're not 2.5 points a piece. =/

However you can have 210 for 960 (2 Platoon Command Squads, 10 Infantry Squads, 2 maxed out Conscript Squads), which is pretty damn scary even in CC.