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As a all round close combat unit which would you say is the more effecient, Ogryns or Rough Riders? I already have a small squad of the later which I've been planning to use as a counter attacking unit should my army be charged, but I've been considering a conversion idea for a unit of Ogryns lately too, and well the Rough Riders are really styled more for the rarely used PDF elements of my army than a unit of hazmat suit wearing brutes. I fully expect for my army to be coming up against a good few squads of close combat orientated space marines-Black Templars, Blood Angels-, but I've got enough fire power to wittle down the bulk of their force, this squad is to charge anything that gets to close-Rough Riders would be better here- and also be charged in return in subsequent combat phases-Maybe Ogrns. Opinions?

If you are choosing between the two of them, I would say get riders. Two reasons for this:

1. Riders are cheaper than ogryn. When you spend points on countercharge units, you are cutting down the points worth of weapons fire that will hit your enemies' lines every turn, making their approach easier. In an army dedicated to shooting, there isn't always a need for this type of unit until you take it.

2. Riders are better at assaulting marines than ogryn. I feel ogryn are more for absorbing shooting or killing stuff with a weak save. Riders have a bigger assault range, and on the turn they assault, they not only strike before the typical marine, but also ignore armour. This is only on the first turn yeah, but if you can weaken the unit with guns first, it should be enough. Terminator and combat squads are small anyway.

You might have trouble keeping them alive though. Hide behind chimeras or something I guess.

Here's what it comes down to for me:

Rough Riders are a counter-charge unit, for after your lines have already been charged. They come in and save the day, freeing the other unit. However, most units are going to fold after one turn of assault. The exceptions are blobs and Ogryn.

Ogryn, on the other hand, really want to be the first to charge. Those weapons are S 5 Assault 3, and they can really lay down a ton of damage. Unlike Rough Riders, their Strength is base 3, so they're useful for more than the first round. Ogryn are good for initiating a charge against slightly tougher opponents, like marines. Suddenly marines go from wounding on 3s to 5s, and getting wounded on 3s instead of 5s.

Rough Riders are good for freeing a blob from a tarpit, or hurrying them along, they're best when dedicated to supporting. Ogryn can stand alone a bit better.

Wyrmalla wrote:As a all round close combat unit which would you say is the more effecient, Ogryns or Rough Riders? I already have a small squad of the later which I've been planning to use as a counter attacking unit should my army be charged, but I've been considering a conversion idea for a unit of Ogryns lately too, and well the Rough Riders are really styled more for the rarely used PDF elements of my army than a unit of hazmat suit wearing brutes. I fully expect for my army to be coming up against a good few squads of close combat orientated space marines-Black Templars, Blood Angels-, but I've got enough fire power to wittle down the bulk of their force, this squad is to charge anything that gets to close-Rough Riders would be better here- and also be charged in return in subsequent combat phases-Maybe Ogrns. Opinions?

Hellhounds. Very durable and very painful.

Seriously though, what does the rest of your army look like? Can you take a Lord Commissar? Are you running foot lists or mech lists? The nice thing about Ogryn is that they can withstand longer than a single round of combat. The problem with Rough Riders is that they're pretty useless after that first initial charge, and that they're just fast moving Guardsmen as far actually making it to the enemy. Ogryn at least can take some punishment getting up to the enemy, and after that first battle they're in, they might still be able to manage something further.

Neither?
Grey Knights, for a few months while we still have the option?

Neither unit is capable of taking on decent assault units. Probably wiser to spend those points on more guns and/or cheap speedbump units.

Yes yes, Rough Riders have blahblah. They're also super fragile. It's extremely unlikely your opponent is going to let them assault.

Rough Riders, definitely. They're a glass cannon, but when they hit home, they will ruin anyone's day. They're also not such a huge investment as ogryn are, and can outflank, both of which increase their chances of getting that shock charge.

Uh, no. Rough Riders do not outflank.

Unless you run Creed.

If I was taking allied units it'd be a load of zealots from my Witch Hunters army, but I really don't want to muddy the water about with other armies units. Now that I think about it the 5+ save of the Ogryns isn't something I'm to keen on despite their toughness, and their low initiative'll get them killed before they can do jack. What I'll be needing is a unit that can charge another than has been wittled down a bit by my heavy weapons and knock a good chunk off it, or wipe it out before they can easily kill my unit in reture, which really says Rough Riders to me. Hellhounds and Banewolfs might be an idea (though I hate the daft sized template), though if my opponent does decide to take that unit of Long Fangs etc, that may throw a spanner in the works a bit, but whatever, don't know till I try it. =P

Ivan wrote:Unless you run Creed.

Creed doesn't allow cavalry units to outflank.

As for which to take, the question you're asking is the equivalent to "which should I take, 3 hydras or 2 groups of melta stormies?" The two units are so utterly different that they don't really compare well.

Both of them are good, but they both do different things in different ways. Which you take will depend much more on what the rest of your list looks like and what kind of army you want to play than it will on which of these options are "better" than the other.

Ah, that's right. So yeah, they can never outflank.

Neither? Guard, CC? Don't bother unless you go Straken. They don't get CC ability cheaply, or to be honest very competently.

notabot187 wrote:They don't get CC ability cheaply, or to be honest very competently.

Not true.

Furthermore, with regards to RRs and Ogryn, ogryn aren't cheap per-model, but they're reasonably priced for what they actually accomplish, and a huge pile of S6 attacks on the charge tends to be rather competent. Meanwhile, rough riders are the most cost-effective way for the guard to take out monstrous creatures, while making lots of other units disappear in an awful hurry.

One needs to do nothing more than the statistics. Of course, objectivity has long been the bane of stereotypes everywhere.

Ailaros does great things with Imperial Guard, his advise is sound.

It also depends on your metagame/regular opponents of course. Being a Daemonplayer myself I fear Rough Riders more than I do Ogryn. On the other hand I could imagine (Dark)Eldar, Orks, IG would feel different. You say your opponents are Marines mostly? If your means of engaging them is through firepower I'd opt for the Rough Riders. If your army has blobs then Ogryn may be more suitable.

Cilithan

Ivan wrote:Neither?
Grey Knights, for a few months while we still have the option?

Neither unit is capable of taking on decent assault units. Probably wiser to spend those points on more guns and/or cheap speedbump units.

Yes yes, Rough Riders have blahblah. They're also super fragile. It's extremely unlikely your opponent is going to let them assault.

Troll?

Speedbumps are a waste of points. Every unit should be able to have an impact. Taking an Infantry Squad just to sacrifice them in assault usually means you're giving someone free movement with the charge, not tying them up.

And you opponent doesn't have to "let them assault," they have fleet as well as a 12" charge range. Basically you can engage whenever you decide it's necessary.

Rough Riders + Move Move Move can make for some very long charge threats. I like the idea of Ogryns myself but can't afford to get some so not much I can help with there. The Riders are for the most part a very fun unit. I try not to expect great things from them but most of the time they give a solid showing.
Tonight I had a squad of 7 charge 3 blood crushers and put 2 wounds on them and then keep them tied up in combat for another turn which allowed me to bring 3 squads of firepower to bear on the crushers to finish them off. In a previous game I had them charge a squad of blood letters in cover and they wiped them out. The big thing is that in most games they do not survive. They either die in combat or they kill something and get mopped up by another squad.
Hope that helps.
Cheers,
~Volkan

Apologies, I meant reserve (I so rarely use it for non-outflankers), which makes them a great walk-on-and-charge unit for gunlines, since the enemy will have arrived at your forces by turn two or three.

ElCheezus wrote:

Ivan wrote:Neither?
Grey Knights, for a few months while we still have the option?

Neither unit is capable of taking on decent assault units. Probably wiser to spend those points on more guns and/or cheap speedbump units.

Yes yes, Rough Riders have blahblah. They're also super fragile. It's extremely unlikely your opponent is going to let them assault.

Troll?

Speedbumps are a waste of points. Every unit should be able to have an impact. Taking an Infantry Squad just to sacrifice them in assault usually means you're giving someone free movement with the charge, not tying them up.

And you opponent doesn't have to "let them assault," they have fleet as well as a 12" charge range. Basically you can engage whenever you decide it's necessary.

Scrub who likes to give bad advice?

I've run Rough Riders many times. I enjoy them thematically and they're a hoot in casual games. But I'm not going to lie and go claiming they're any good. In my experience a competent player will never allow himself to get charged by Rough Riders. It's just too easy to eliminate T3 Sv5+ models.

Don't get me started on Ogryn.

I'm not sure why you care so much about this discussion that you decided to go name-calling.

The best advice above is to work out what you want to do with the unit first and then choose either Ogryns or Rough Riders. I think Ogryns are best used as a primary line unit used as part of your own tactics for acheiving something, i.e. move them as assault troops to clear enemy capture points with other units in support.

Rough Riders seem to work much better as counter-charge troops and therefore should be hidden until the enemy gets close. Primarily this is because they are much more fragile and its easier to hide them in this role. Personally I will either hide them behind my transports or keep them in Reserve to stop them from getting creamed. Once they are in the open they are pretty much dead. Remember though that you don't actually need to let the enemy charge to have a counter-charge unit The rough rider mobility is excellent and can allow you to stop-charge approaching enemy troops with a good chance of gutting the target unit. At this point their flimsy nature is a benefit as they may well get slaughtered leaving the enemy survivors ripe for getting shot to death.

Ailaros wrote:

Ivan wrote:Unless you run Creed.

Creed doesn't allow cavalry units to outflank.

As for which to take, the question you're asking is the equivalent to "which should I take, 3 hydras or 2 groups of melta stormies?" The two units are so utterly different that they don't really compare well.

Both of them are good, but they both do different things in different ways. Which you take will depend much more on what the rest of your list looks like and what kind of army you want to play than it will on which of these options are "better" than the other.

So I guess you never read the Tactical Genius rule that allows any one unit to outflank. Good to know.

ph34r wrote:So I guess you never read the Tactical Genius rule that allows any one unit to outflank. Good to know.

You mean the rule that allows any infantry or vehicle unit (not cavalry) to outflank?

Might be a translation thing. Pretty sure the English version just says unit.

Hulksmash wrote:Might be a translation thing. Pretty sure the English version just says unit.

Nope, I've got the English book as well, it says "choose a single infantry or vehicle unit in your army".

You are indeed correct sir. Compliments of scribd I now note that it is in fact for vehicle or infantry only. Well....almost lost a game because of that one

Oh and in regards to the thread I prefer Ogryns but I hear I'm a little soft in the head I like the cost effectiveness of the rough riders but the only hurting a single unit is a bit of a turn off.

Ogryn don't do too much that a blob platoon can't, while the blob platoon can take power weapons, meltas, heavies, a LD re-roll, and can score.

Rough Riders do something not much else does, and that's kill Marines in close combat. It's hard to think of a time you'd really need them though. Either you're running MSU IG, and losing and breaking most of the time when charged allowing firepower to be your countercharge, or you've got big durable platoons that won't allow the riders access to charge in. YMMV,

Take a blob platoon. 30 men plus commissars with hidden fists and/or power weapons. It's more expensive, but also much more effective and can add some useful shooting with special and heavy weapons and a huge volume of lasguns.

The blob platoon also has the advantage of acting as a large screen, which neither Ogryn nor Rough Riders do well.

That's the most unfortunate part about rough riders: they tend to suffer more than other guard units from people looking at only a single part of their attributes and basing their judgment solely on that.

It's like, people see that they can only use their lances once and then immediately shut down. Then, of course, you look at the bigger picture, and their use becomes apparent. For example, a single, 105 point unit charges into a totally healthy 5-man terminator squad from 24" away is likely to blow the squad away in a single charge.

Tell me, what other other single unit can do this much damage in a single shooting phase or a single charge? What can do it from so far away? What can do it for so few points? What more does a 105 point squad NEED to do once it's killed hundreds of points of the enemy's elite?

The fact that they can only use their lances once, and are thereafter forced to "only" run around krak grenading vehicles doesn't seem like much of a drawback to me, given their overall capabilities.

As for rough riders getting shot up, I'd note three things. Firstly, they have a 24" threat range coming in off the board from reserves. In case you missed it, that's half the board. If they survive even a single round of shooting, they can be ANYWHERE on the board within two turns. They're a fast attack choice for a reason.

Secondly, they're really cheap. If they get shot up, it's not like you lost a critical part of your army. Finally, they're so cheap that you can easily take multiple squads of them. There's no way that your opponent is going to be able to shoot up three whole squads of rough riders and two whole blobs of infantry in just a single turn or two. Something is making it through, and it's going to be a bad day for your opponents when it does.

As for ogryn, they also suffer from the same tunnel vision problem. People see that they cost 40 points a model and immediately assume that they must not be worth taking at all, whatever else their statline may contain. Ogryn do have some specific counters, like S10 ordnance and grey knight terminators, but otherwise ogryn are definitely worth their hefty price tag (see, for example, this game or this game).

Why people are willing to spend 40 points on a single sentinel while not being willing to spend 40 points on a single ogryn is a curiosity to me.

Hulksmash wrote:You are indeed correct sir. Compliments of scribd I now note that it is in fact for vehicle or infantry only. Well....almost lost a game because of that one

Oh and in regards to the thread I prefer Ogryns but I hear I'm a little soft in the head I like the cost effectiveness of the rough riders but the only hurting a single unit is a bit of a turn off.

I guess we learn something new every day. I have literally never had the issue come up. Then again, people almost never play either rough riders or Creed.

I've seen it once. And the bugger used it to outflank w/rough riders. Almost turned the game. Figured for his points it had to be legit. Guess not

I think the biggest problem for me is 2 fold.
1 - RR take a FA slot i'm going to have filled something carrying TL lascannons &/or a Inferno cannon.

2 - i don't like the points cost for the Ogryns(game or wallet wise!). i would go with a blob over them, period.

i don't want to come off as if i'm saying both are bad. just not for me. but given the 2, i guess i'd add the Ogryns
before i'd drop my Vendettas.

Right, the reasons not to take rough riders or ogryn are real, but peripheral. I haven't taken any riders yet because the models are terrible and it's going to take me a while to scratchbuild, while they do actually compete with other useful FA slots (they're good, but not hands down the best in all situations). As for the ogryn, well, there's a reason I scratch-built mine...