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I have a 1750 all jump pack DOA list I've been using that is

Libby
Honour Gd - 4 X Melta
2 priests
3 X assault sqds -2 melta, pf
3 x Vanguard Vets (5 men, pf sgt)

I'm wondering if anyone has tips on fighting monstrous creature lists, such as 2 X Dual Lash Princes or Bug lists with multiple MC's.

Thanks.

Try to work in some sang guard. they are all power weapons with a free priest and they are pretty durable. or you can melta the hell out of them.

I tried this list

dante
3x 10m assault squads w/ 2 melta and pwr fist
2x sang guard w/ pwr fist
3x typhoon speeders.

kinda got facerolled against guard but its the only playtest i got it so far.

Vs MC's plasma is far superior to melta. Missile's also help, though I guess that would ruin the theme.

Sang guard don't get a free priest.

Honor guard have the Novitiate.

If you're up against lash princes then the Librarian is helpful with his psychic hood. Against Nidz it can be tough battle as your opponents will probably screens their MCs with gaunts. Flamers help a lot of quickly burn down the gaunts and you'll need a dedicated unit to then charge the MCs.

MC's are a problem when you play a DoA army.
For this, I decided to include a squad of Hammernators in larger pt games (2000 pts).
Alternatively, plasma guns could help.

Alternatively, you can put 3 or 4 storm shields on an honor guard or vanguard unit and just try to tie up the MC. Nothing says that they have to do in order for you to win. If you are willing to play a hybrid list, this is where devastators start to shine.

elfmagic wrote:I have a 1750 all jump pack DOA list I've been using that is

Libby
Honour Gd - 4 X Melta
2 priests
3 X assault sqds -2 melta, pf
3 x Vanguard Vets (5 men, pf sgt)

I'm wondering if anyone has tips on fighting monstrous creature lists, such as 2 X Dual Lash Princes or Bug lists with multiple MC's.

Thanks.

That's 525 points in Vanguard Vets.
30% of your army is Vanguard Vets.
Vanguard Vets are not built to take down MC, especially high I MC, thus 30% of your army is very weak against MC
Having problems with MC is just a side effect of overspending on VV.

I usually find that assault marines work just fine. Usually it takes 2 squads to deal with 1 MC.

Against Lash Princes
Melta 2/3 hit 5/6 wound 2/3 fail invo=37% chance so 4 melta=1.5 wounds
S5 CC attacks 1/2 hit 1/2 wound 1/3 get past armor=1/12 cause a wound so 50 CC attacks base lowered to 42 attacks for I6 casualties from the DP=3.5 wounds
With statistically average rolls the DP should be dead before the 6 power fist swings go off.

Against TMC (WS4+)
Melta 2/3 hit 5/6 wound=5/9 shots cause a wound so 4 shots=2 and 1/9th of a wound
50 I5 S5 regular attacks 1/2 hit 1/3 wound 1/3 failed armor saves=1/18 swings cause a wound=2 and 7/9ths of a wound
Total wounds so far=4 and 8/9 ie 4.8 wounds
6 power fists=1/2 hit 5/6 wound=5/12 cause a wound=2.5 more wounds
Total wounds now=7 and 7/18th ie 7.38 wounds

In both cases a pair of assault squads can drop the MC in a single turn. FC on assault marines really can chew up a MC.

as above, use your speed to your advantage and pigpile onto a single MC at a time if possible.

I wouldn't suggest priests, libby or dread libby (to maul his troops) would be ideal.
If your opponent has a tendency to run nugle boys I would run a librarian, if he runs bloodcrushers or bloodletters I'd run the libby dread.

I also agree that 3 squads of vanguard vets seems like a little much.

Great tips. With unleash rage from the libby and two squads I should be fine.

take a second libby with the points from going down to 2 VV units

MCs are trouble for drop lists like this. I got my butt kicked hard by Nids quite a few times running a very similar list to the OP (my Honor Guard had 4x Plasma, and other inconsequential differences), and ultimately made some pretty huge changes to try and help (such as running 4 Predators). If you don't want the fire support from Predators/Razorbacks/Devs/whatever in your list (you give up drop elements for it but it helps balance the list and tie up bad matchups against things like Nids and some Hordes) then get some Storm Shields. You're unfortunately going to have to spend a mountain of points to get enough SS into one units (Honor Guard or Vanguards) to survive the incoming attacks from things like Trygons in order to then swing back, but SS and PF/TH makes quick work of them. When you get the charge off your power weapons and such become solid at str5 (assuming FC) but you're always going to struggle against them. Shoot them down or get stuck in with a unit packing multiple power fists and multiple storm shields. You need to use your speed to pick your fight with them and try not to engage until the odds are in your favor. Dealing with 3 Trygon/2 Tervigon/Swarmlord (or any 4+MC nids) is just going to be hard for a DoA heavy list. Dealing with stuff like Kan Wall Orks is really hard as well as the Kans are a pain for reasons similar to the MCs.

The Lash Princes aren't as terrible as they're a little easier to shoot down and definitely easier to beat in CC. Lash hurts, but I don't think more than 1 is going to survive your initial drop.

Caffran is right.
If you want an all-comers DoA list, then I'd take a Honor Guard with 4 flamers.
In this way, they can easily deal with hordes.
Moreover, I suggest to include some Hammernators, about 7 or 8, in order to deal with MCs heavy lists.
The alternative are Vanguard Vets with ss/pf but this combo gets very costly.

Without changing your list, you can take on monstrous creatures. It's a challenge, but if you play it right an assault/infantry army can do it. Here are some tips:

1. Don't deepstrike against MC-heavy armies.
If you deepstrike close enough to assault or shoot melta, then you might get one guy and the rest of them pile on you the following turn and kill you (or you get lashed into charge range and assaulted). Standard monstrous creatures only have a 12" charge range, so if you deploy on the table you should be able to charge them (you might have to feed flying princes a bait unit), getting the benefit of furious charge and the extra attack. That allows you to soften up your target with melta and then concentrate the power fist guys on one or two MCs at a time.
Yes, I know you want to charge your vanguard vets directly off the drop, but against MC-heavy armies, they probably get one charge and then die anyway, right?

2. Try for no-retreat wounds. If the MC is standing anywhere near weaker troops, multi-charge the weak guys and throw one guy in against the MC. You win big against the weedy guys, and the fearless MC dies from no-retreat wounds that carry over from the other part of the combat. This works especially well against tyranids--I've put as many as ten or twelve no-retreat wounds on an MC by attacking them in combination with gants. It's a lot easier than trying to wound T6 by attacking them directly.

The 2nd point is very interesting.
However, if you face a Trygon, this d*** thing will eventually punch a large hole into your squad.

MCs will rip through squads pretty effectivly, but you can reduce the effectivness of their attacks if you are using something with a decent Invuln like Hammernators.

combo charge a large gaunt squad and a MC with an Assault squad and Hammernators.

make it so the MC in in BtB with only the 3++ terminators, but still in the same combat.

focus most of your attacks against the Gaunts with some Thunder hammers against the MC.

the MC will then take a bunch of wounds and any attacks it made will likely get bounced by the 3++ storm shields.

I run three rifleman dreads in a DOA hybrid list. They are great against MC. My main opponent usually runs nidz. But this takes away from the theme in exchange for flexibility.

I play a similar list and have found many ways to get rid of monstrous creatures. In this list, close up assault oriented lists, you need something that deals with powerful enemy combat units, be they monsters, incubi, termies, etc. Your only option is really vanguard vets with storm shields.

Sack one of your three vanguard squads and use the points to buy another power weapon per squad and as many storm shields as you can fit in. That should give you exactly what you need to deal with monsters. Vanguard vets with 4xSS and a couple claws or fists will kill a trygon as long as you don't get unlucky and have the two fist guys die quickly. Yes they are expensive and yes they are worth it in this army. Alternatively Kerby usually votes for sacking all vanguard and taking missile launcher armed devs with a priest to baby sit them but that is a pretty big list change.

Flamers aren't needed, you have piles of attacks that can be str5 when charging so hoards are less of an issue. Keep the meltas so you can kill tanks effectively on the drop. Throw the vanguard squads at enemy squads that will be a threat to your assault marines. This includes combat squads and dev squads, usually in that order. If none exist throw them at squads trying to keep your assault marines away from enemy tanks.

I'd like to +1 what Caffran was saying...

And definitely take a look at Flavius' ideas for making lemonade. Especially the part about not deep striking right next to the MCs and allowing them to charge you on their terms.

In summary, "All DoA" armies are mono-faceted, which hyper-exaggerates their weaknesses, so either include long range fire support, deep strike some land raiders full of assault terminators, or accept the difficult match-up and use as many dirty tricks as you can to stabilize.

As I stated at the beginning of this post, your only options are to add SS and hope you make 3++ saves on single wound models costing you upwards of 55 points or add some long range support (i.e., missile launcher devastators). The Devastators make a jump army more balanced and are more point efficient. They also make your opponent's decision of when to pop smoke more difficult. Against an all DS army, you just pop smoke on turn 2.

I don't think those are his only options. Flavius and schadenfreude both gave other strong suggestions.

Multi-charging TMCs and gaunts is not easy against a competent nid player who knows how to bubble wrap his TMCs. It gets even worse if the nid player is fielding the amazing death star of doom (Tyrant + guard + prime).

I have a question: Does a DOA list really have to get infantry with DoA? I mean 3 Dev squads with ML's wont hurt, beats the gak out of the vanguard suicides.

yeah, but then it would be a hybrid list and the enemy would have a whole turn of shooting to deal with the devestators before the cavelry arrives.

i would spend the points on Landspeeders with Typhoon missile launchers that can deep strike with the rest of the army.

Grey Templar wrote:yeah, but then it would be a hybrid list and the enemy would have a whole turn of shooting to deal with the devestators before the cavelry arrives.

i would spend the points on Landspeeders with Typhoon missile launchers that can deep strike with the rest of the army.

And DoA armies arent supposed to deep strike 100% of the time. They just can opt to deepstrike. Thats why it makes no sense to me.

I have started to add HS to my DoA army. I started with Dev's and have essentially stuck with them. It makes my list more "balanced." The addition of some ML has allowed my assault troops to focus more so on other targets. I still generally DoA as much as possible and leave the Dev's in cover. I also run two squads with 4 MLs each, so 8 ML's are great at dealing with any crazy heavy armor. My Dev's have also rarely been shot away. I tried Landspeeders, but their bad AV has only lead them to being shot down very very quickly. I have been tempted to try out either DakkaDakka Preds, or Baal Preds, but my experience with SM armor is limited, so we shall see. The only other thing I would suggest is a Sang. Priest in Termie armor with Hammernators is amazing. Throw in a Libby with preferred enemy for the squad and Sanguine Sword, and you have yourself a devastating deathstar unit, albeit expensive!

Hammernators + FNP + Preferred enemy has generally lead to one of the most impressive Deathstar units I have ever had the ability of commanding.

MadMaverick76 wrote:I have started to add HS to my DoA army. I started with Dev's and have essentially stuck with them. It makes my list more "balanced." The addition of some ML has allowed my assault troops to focus more so on other targets. I still generally DoA as much as possible and leave the Dev's in cover. I also run two squads with 4 MLs each, so 8 ML's are great at dealing with any crazy heavy armor. My Dev's have also rarely been shot away. I tried Landspeeders, but their bad AV has only lead them to being shot down very very quickly. I have been tempted to try out either DakkaDakka Preds, or Baal Preds, but my experience with SM armor is limited, so we shall see. The only other thing I would suggest is a Sang. Priest in Termie armor with Hammernators is amazing. Throw in a Libby with preferred enemy for the squad and Sanguine Sword, and you have yourself a devastating deathstar unit, albeit expensive!

Hammernators + FNP + Preferred enemy has generally lead to one of the most impressive Deathstar units I have ever had the ability of commanding.

Which reminds me, Land raiders are actually good for DoA armies too, in higher pointages. Again, you dont need to deepstrike them, but you can, if No Man's Land is that big.

DooDoo wrote:Multi-charging TMCs and gaunts is not easy against a competent nid player who knows how to bubble wrap his TMCs. It gets even worse if the nid player is fielding the amazing death star of doom (Tyrant + guard + prime).

That's what makes it challenging. You often have to create the opportunity yourself, like using shooting or a succession of strategic assaults in subsequent phases to get things positioned right. The nice thing is that, if he's bubble-wrapping like that, your opponent is limiting his own mobility to some extent.

The amazing death star of doom still only has a movement of 6" plus max assault 6". A jump pack army can outrun that.

Yuber wrote:

Which reminds me, Land raiders are actually good for DoA armies too, in higher pointages. Again, you dont need to deepstrike them, but you can, if No Man's Land is that big.

Oh yea, I think the unit minus the LR runs about 453 pts. roughly, a tad expensive, throw in the LR and you have over 700 pts. in one unit! Definitely a unit I would take over 2000 pts.

But watching it in CC is just pure sexual!

Yuber wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:yeah, but then it would be a hybrid list and the enemy would have a whole turn of shooting to deal with the devestators before the cavelry arrives.

i would spend the points on Landspeeders with Typhoon missile launchers that can deep strike with the rest of the army.

And DoA armies arent supposed to deep strike 100% of the time. They just can opt to deepstrike. Thats why it makes no sense to me.

Yeah, but i think everything in a DoA army should be able to deep strike.

you could buy Drop Pods or Landraiders for them, but that would be less points in Assault Marines and other things.