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So, I'm considering getting The Duke for my DE coven army. It's mostly Wyches and hellions, and he gives a bonus to combat drugs, but all the Wyches are mounted in Raiders, and he lets them deep strike.

...Is it worth it though? Not the Duke, the deepstriking. Deep striking comes with the risk of death by mishap, and apparently if you deep strike in your wyches can't get out and assault in that turn anyway, so the raiders are getting shot at for a full turn ANYWAY - except they don't have that sexy cover save for traveling really fast.

So what's the benefit here? Why would I deep strike instead of racing across the battlefield?

Can't they disembark if they deepstrike?

That's what I thought! But according to the fellas at the rules forum here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/337542.page that's a no.

Racing across the board means possibly getting shot at for more than 1 turn.

Deepstriking will guarentee at most 1 turn of shooting on them unless you mishap. It's like giving them a shield.

Sliscus' deepstriking rule is better with raiders full of warriors/trueborn, since they couldn't shoot unless they disembarked, which retrofire jets prevent them from doing.

You still can't assault after deepstriking though.

Also, if you take sliscus, take a unit of 9 or less trueborn with carbines and splinter cannons in a raider, he has to deploy with either trueborn or warriors (generally taken to mean he can only deploy if they're present; a terrible ruling honestly, but better to get the extra bonus and avoid any stupid arguments with your local rules lawyers; if you're doing a themed cult army, just call them his personal retinue/bodyguards or something), and he buffs their weapons to poisoned(3+).

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Also, if you take sliscus, take a unit of 9 or less trueborn with carbines and splinter cannons in a raider,

Actually I did the math on this. The carbines are only BARELY superior to splinter rifles on a splinter racked raider, not worth the points to upgrade.

Edit: To clarify, that's against MEQ, but MEQ is what I expect to be up against 90% of the time.

Squash wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Also, if you take sliscus, take a unit of 9 or less trueborn with carbines and splinter cannons in a raider,

Actually I did the math on this. The carbines are only BARELY superior to splinter rifles on a splinter racked raider, not worth the points to upgrade.

If you intend to shoot on the turn you arrive by deep strike you must disembark and lose access to splinter racks.

The deep striking risk isn't the Mishap, it's the reserve rolls. Dark Eldar don't have the staying power to come in spread out, they need to swarm an enemy and over power it, not get caught in the open.

If you do want a Duke list, I'd go with: 2,000 points:

Duke
Master Haemon, Liquifier, venom blade
2x haemon, with liquifier and venom blade
7 warriors, blaster, + Syrabrite with blast pistol
2x8 wyches, blast pistol, + Hekatrix with blast pistol and power weapon
3x10 wracks, 2x liquifiers
6 Raiders, all with night shields and flicker fields
3x Ravagers, night shields and flicker fields

Haemonculi join the non-wracks, so you start with 60 feel no pain guys.
Shooting, you've got 15 dark lances, 1 blaster, 2 blast pistols, along with 9 Liquifier templates.


IMO you want the night shields (5+ save the turn you land) and the flicker fields (so when you swamp a flank, the far side of the table is out of range).
The duke is alright; he's saving 45 points worth of deep striking which puts him over the top of a normal archon.

I would not attempt a deep striking army unless everybody starts with a pain token.


-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:The deep striking risk isn't the Mishap, it's the reserve rolls. Dark Eldar don't have the staying power to come in spread out, they need to swarm an enemy and over power it, not get caught in the open.

If you do want a Duke list, I'd go with: 2,000 points:

Duke
Master Haemon, Liquifier, venom blade
2x haemon, with liquifier and venom blade
7 warriors, blaster, + Syrabrite with blast pistol
2x8 wyches, blast pistol, + Hekatrix with blast pistol and power weapon
3x10 wracks, 2x liquifiers
6 Raiders, all with night shields and flicker fields
3x Ravagers, night shields and flicker fields

Haemonculi join the non-wracks, so you start with 60 feel no pain guys.
Shooting, you've got 15 dark lances, 1 blaster, 2 blast pistols, along with 9 Liquifier templates.


IMO you want the night shields (5+ save the turn you land) and the flicker fields (so when you swamp a flank, the far side of the table is out of range).
The duke is alright; he's saving 45 points worth of deep striking which puts him over the top of a normal archon.

I would not attempt a deep striking army unless everybody starts with a pain token.


-Matt

You switched the effects of flickerfields and night shields. Flickerfields are the invuln, night shields are the things that screw with range. Both are awesome and worth their points, especially flickerfields, and both are an absolute steal on ravagers, razorwings, and voidravens.

Personally, I don't see the point of blast pistols on warriors. They cost as much as a dark lance (25 for the lance, compared to 10 for sybarite and 15 for the pistol), and there's no sane reason to ever have warriors within 6" of an enemy vehicle. You want to take down vehicles up close? Wyches with haywire grenades have a threat range that's 1-6" larger, and get ten shots that glance on a 2+ and pen on a 6, for less points. You want to take on enemy troops in CC? Wyches can actually inflict casualties in close combat, especially with a hekatrix with a power weapon (or agoniser against MCs, venom blade if you can't spare the points for that), and a blast pistol isn't worth 25 points over a splinter pistol when you're charging with it.

Squash wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Also, if you take sliscus, take a unit of 9 or less trueborn with carbines and splinter cannons in a raider,

Actually I did the math on this. The carbines are only BARELY superior to splinter rifles on a splinter racked raider, not worth the points to upgrade.

Edit: To clarify, that's against MEQ, but MEQ is what I expect to be up against 90% of the time.

Let's see... To simplify the math, let's assume there are ten trueborn in the squad, all with carbines, or all with rifles on a raider with racks. The rifles have a stationary range of 24", getting ten twinlinked shots (so just under eight shots will hit on average), and a mobile range of 18" (moving 6" and firing 12"), getting twenty twinlinked shots (of which 15-16 will hit on average). The carbines have a stationary range of 18", and a mobile range of 24", getting 30 shots at both (of which 20 will hit on average). You can add ~6-8" to both ranges if you move the raider 12" and dismount, though of course the former will then lose their twin-linked status. You'll wound with half the hits, and MEQs will ignore a further 2/3 of them... Rifles inflict about 2-3 ultimately, Carbines just over 3... That's about a 29% increase in damage, with a 33% increase in range, but for a cost increase of 42% (or 89%, since normal warriors can use their rifles as well as trueborn, but only trueborn get the carbines).

Include Sliscus in the unit, and... (counting the 6" movement of the raider in mobile ranges)
Warriors with rifles and splinter racks: 9 shots at 24", about 7 shots hit; 18 shots at 18", about 14 hit; 2/3rds wound, 1/3rd of those get through the armor... 1.5 wounds at 24", 3 at 18".
Trueborn with carbines: 27 shots out to 24", 18 hit, 12 wound, and four get by the armor. 25% increase in wounds, 33% increase in range.

So carbine trueborn are a better deal than rifle trueborn, but warriors are better for the cost. Of course, this is ignoring the interaction with splinter cannons, next to which I'd think that carbines would work quite well (stationary ten trueborn with two cannons and eight carbines would get 36 shots at 18", and 12 out to 36", while warriors with rifles and two cannons would get 26 shots out to 12", or 20 shots at 24", and the same 12 shots at 36", and so on).

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
You switched the effects of flickerfields and night shields. Flickerfields are the invuln, night shields are the things that screw with range. Both are awesome and worth their points, especially flickerfields, and both are an absolute steal on ravagers, razorwings, and voidravens.

Personally, I don't see the point of blast pistols on warriors. They cost as much as a dark lance (25 for the lance, compared to 10 for sybarite and 15 for the pistol), and there's no sane reason to ever have warriors within 6" of an enemy vehicle. You want to take down vehicles up close? Wyches with haywire grenades have a threat range that's 1-6" larger, and get ten shots that glance on a 2+ and pen on a 6, for less points. You want to take on enemy troops in CC? Wyches can actually inflict casualties in close combat, especially with a hekatrix with a power weapon (or agoniser against MCs, venom blade if you can't spare the points for that), and a blast pistol isn't worth 25 points over a splinter pistol when you're charging with it.

Good catch on the fields; I transposed that between the list and the post.

The point of the blast pistol (only 1 squad of warriors) is simple.
I had spare points, but had already filled all 6 transports. A back up blaster for the unit with the Duke seems like a good idea.

I wanted the power weapons on the wyches (since you're rolling twice for drugs and choosing), so the pistol their is only 15 points (instead of 20). Haywire on the wyches is better; but I'd rather shoot than assault tanks/transports.


In a list where you're planning on deep striking, I want as many shooting options the turn I land as possible. Even if it's a 6" lance, I don't know who's going to be coming in, so I want everything to have some shot at downing a tank, or putting another wound on a monster.


-Matt