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In reviewing the gaming books (rule books and such), lore (Black Library), video games, etc... One subject has always captured my attention more than any other; The Primarchs. I am sure I am not the only one who feels this way. As we all know when GW creates a codex or new unit, we as consumers pay for what the model can do in game, more so than for the mode itself. Magic the Gathering does this currently with cards, where you pay for what the card can do, rather than the cards itself.

With that being said, my suggestion for 6th edition or even 5th for that matter is simple; bring back any living Primarchs so that they may be added to the game. So far we know this; Leman Russ is missing and assumed alive for all intents and purposes and the same goes for Corax, Vulkan, Rogal Dorn, and Jaghatai Khan. Both the Lion and Guilliman are in stasis, and are presumably still alive. By adding a storyline that the Golden Throne (Emperor) somehow contacted his sons to return, and healed the others psychically (again just spit balling here). GW could easily add these characters back into the game via the 6th edition or by adding a "Primarch Codex" to 5th edition including a rule set introducing them into the game covering all living Primarchs good and evil. As far as the traitor Primarchs, this seems to be a much easier task given that most of them are still alive and have been elevated to the status of Daemon Prince, which makes even more sense. As far as stats and such, I leave that up to GW but I think it can be done. As far as game balance is concerned in my opinion I think that the Primarch's point cost should be rather high to justify their potential stats; or only allow them to be added to army lists over a certain amount (2000or so).

As far as GW itself is concerned, again I think this could be a gold mine. Not only do they get to charge a pretty penny for some cool models, they can tie this into the Black Library and advance the lore storyline wise. Everbody wins! all except those dirty xenos races... but who cares about them right?

Please feel free to expand on these ideas with suggestions, hopefully someone at GW is watching.

most of the "popular" primarchs are still alive or hinted to be alive (Roboute is in stasis and rumored to be healing. Russ is in the warp and most likely still alive due to the 13th Company still being there, El Jonsen is confirmed to be alive under the rock, and Sanguinator pretty much IS Sanguinius).

However it's largely the same problem with primarchs as with the C'Tan, GW doesnt want any major characters in the game. Calgar and Dante are pretty high up there in terms of fluff, but when all is said and done, they're still just chaptermasters of one space marine chapter each. They may be influential, but in no way a position of power to overturn the galaxy. if any primarchs did return (and could be verified as such), you'd bet the imperium and High Lords of Terra bowing at his feet, since who in the imperium could better represent the word of the Emperor better than his own sons? The amount of power these individuals hold excludes them from ever appearing on the tabletop, since there's barely excuse enough for Calgar to show up, let alone the proginator of the Ultramarines themselves. It's the same issue with C'Tans.

Not to mention these guys would have to be at least this staline


Ws 8 Bs 6 T 7 Str 8 W 6 A 8 ini 7 LD fearless Sv 2+ rerollable, inv 3+ instant death power weapon 2d6 pen, eternal warrior and any other special rules need be.

These are all justified by other space marine units that almost fit these stats. Mephiston overcame the black rage, meaning he is as powerful as the very first blood angels, NOT their primarch. So hes more of a heresy marine? T6.

Chaplain cassius is old and survived a bit, and is slightly mechanical, T6!

Sanguinor is almost 1/10th of a primarch, 3+ inv str 6 6 attacks (or whatever)

We have to realize these people are literally gods among men, the Emperor's sons. They could beat the sh*t out of a daemon prince like it was a chew toy, hell they would absolutely WOOP a greater daemon! Just look at the sanguinor!

If we agree that the Emperors statline is 10, then Primarchs are going to be in the 6 or 7 range.

not to mention Daemon Prince Primarchs. Angron only made an appearance in epic. He'd be a Gargantuan Creature at the very least, and would need some pretty whacked stats to represent his larger size.

Just pointing out, Dorn died while attacking the Chaos ship "Sword of Sacrilege".

Currently Ferrus Manus, Rogal Dorn, Sanguinius, Horus, and possibly Alpharius are all dead. Ferrus and Dorn were originally speculated to have lived, but with the newer fluff it's confirmed that they are dead (Dorn's Skeleton is kept as one of the chapter's relics, as well as his hands, in which Chaptermasters are allowed to inscribe their names upon. Ferrus's head was also presented to Horus to affirm, the now Daemon, Fulgrim's loyalty).

Vulkan, Russ and Corax all left their chapters and basically flew into the warp or some corner of space, pursuing either chaos (in the case of Russ) or something else known only to them. They're survival is debatable, but nonetheless plausable.

Khan is rumored to be alive, however his ship got sucked into the warp in an area known to be very dangerous. Unlike his other three brethren, it's not likely he survived.

Vulkan and Russ might return. The Lion and Grandpapa Smurf will definately return, as they are being healed. However, Khan and Corax are probably lost, since the former basically got nomnomed by the warp, while the latter didnt provide any hint or will to return.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Vulkan and Russ might return. The Lion and Grandpapa Smurf will definately return, as they are being healed. However, Khan and Corax are probably lost, since the former basically got nomnomed by the warp, while the latter didnt provide any hint or will to return.

I lol'ed.

I guess I just don't really see the appeal of fielding a primarch. They are story plot arcs and insperation. This is really where they should remain in my opinion.

No one will return. Violates the most sacred and important rule:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StatusQuoISGod

In Apoc game HELL YEAH, other then that NO WAY IN HELL. Apoc level they be bad ass, "You got a SH, I'll play my Primarch".

Yeah if the primarchs turned up again, anyone without an equivalent would basically be the underdog.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Currently Ferrus Manus, Rogal Dorn, Sanguinius, Horus, and possibly Alpharius are all dead. Ferrus and Dorn were originally speculated to have lived, but with the newer fluff it's confirmed that they are dead (Dorn's Skeleton is kept as one of the chapter's relics, as well as his hands, in which Chaptermasters are allowed to inscribe their names upon. Ferrus's head was also presented to Horus to affirm, the now Daemon, Fulgrim's loyalty).

Vulkan, Russ and Corax all left their chapters and basically flew into the warp or some corner of space, pursuing either chaos (in the case of Russ) or something else known only to them. They're survival is debatable, but nonetheless plausable.

Khan is rumored to be alive, however his ship got sucked into the warp in an area known to be very dangerous. Unlike his other three brethren, it's not likely he survived.

Vulkan and Russ might return. The Lion and Grandpapa Smurf will definately return, as they are being healed. However, Khan and Corax are probably lost, since the former basically got nomnomed by the warp, while the latter didnt provide any hint or will to return.

Corax is a space ninja. Just when you think he's dead, he'll jump out of the shadows and impale you

Corax is behind everyone...

THere was an English weekend tournaments that was set right after the heresy, and the Primarchs were statted pretty high, so much so that I think they'd upset the balance of play even more towards Space Marines. For Apocalypse-scales games, they'd probably fit right in, I mean, Lysander isn't even a primarch, and he single-handedly took down a Titan, in gameplay a Primarch could probably do the same if kitted out properly.

Th3ee Legged Dog wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Vulkan and Russ might return. The Lion and Grandpapa Smurf will definately return, as they are being healed. However, Khan and Corax are probably lost, since the former basically got nomnomed by the warp, while the latter didnt provide any hint or will to return.

I lol'ed.

I guess I just don't really see the appeal of fielding a primarch. They are story plot arcs and insperation. This is really where they should remain in my opinion.

I meant in-universe possibilities. God knows GW never violates Status Quo.

I think people give the primarch over the top stats too fast. Are they strong? hell yeah! do they all have the strength to overpower a hive tyrant with brute strength? I would say no......

they would be about strength 6 but I cant ever see it being higher then that unless they have war gear that allows them to strike at a higher strength (like a relic blade kinda thing) hell Meranus calgar is strength 4 -.- I for one thought he would be 5. or at least T5 how is a basic plague marine tougher then a 15 foot chapter master of the ulramarines?! lol. And Abaddon a son/clone of Horus with EXTRA powers from the dark gods and the best he can do is be an expensive hq that only strikes at strength 8 because of a daemon weapon. And for some reason can roll a 1 and lose a power struggle with his own weapon and get injured by it?. who's base strength and toughness would be 4 if not for 10 thousand years of chaos blessings? pretty unimpressive honestly.


I think their relic war gear is what would change them to be more impressive then a glorified chapter master.

and Nightbringers stats are him from a weak state. I think he would slap any primarch in the face and make them cry.

GamzaTheChaos wrote:I think people give the primarch over the top stats too fast. Are they strong? hell yeah! do they all have the strength to overpower a hive tyrant with brute strength? I would say no......

they would be about strength 6 but I cant ever see it being higher then that unless they have war gear that allows them to strike at a higher strength (like a relic blade kinda thing) hell Meranus calgar is strength 4 -.- I for one thought he would be 5. or at least T5 how is a basic plague marine tougher then a 15 foot chapter master of the ulramarines?! lol. And Abaddon a son/clone of Horus with EXTRA powers from the dark gods and the best he can do is be an expensive hq that only strikes at strength 8 because of a daemon weapon. And for some reason can roll a 1 and lose a power struggle with his own weapon and get injured by it?. who's base strength and toughness would be 4 if not for 10 thousand years of chaos blessings? pretty unimpressive honestly.


I think their relic war gear is what would change them to be more impressive then a glorified chapter master.

and Nightbringers stats are him from a weak state. I think he would slap any primarch in the face and make them cry.

Sanguinius held out against an army alone at the eternity. One primarch against an army. He also slapped down a bloodthirster with ease. Dorn punched Garro ahrd enough to throw him against a wall, and that wasn't even meant to kill. They are that strong.

purplefood wrote:Yeah if the primarchs turned up again, anyone without an equivalent would basically be the underdog.

Really? Remember the Emperor himself once got "nearly-killed" by an insistant Ork Boy; and it took the combined effort of both Emperor and Horus to kill said Ork.

I don't think Primarchs, (or C'Tan, Chaos Gods, whatever) are that far above the regular stats of troops as to be unrepresentable. If anything, most current SCs are a touch to high already.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

EmilCrane wrote:
Sanguinius held out against an army alone at the eternity. One primarch against an army. He also slapped down a bloodthirster with ease. Dorn punched Garro ahrd enough to throw him against a wall, and that wasn't even meant to kill. They are that strong.

Maugan Ra did much of the same, and he's got stats. As did Calgar and Dante. Stuff like that isn't so out there as a background for HQ-style characters that currently exist in the rules. Common 40K fare even I might say.

Zweischneid wrote:
Maugan Ra did much of the same, and he's got stats. As did Calgar and Dante. Stuff like that isn't so out there as a background for HQ-style characters that currently exist in the rules. Common 40K fare even I might say.

Try comparing the relative powers of said armies...

Theres already rules out for the world eaters primarch and an honor guard for him.. Honestly I dont see why they couldnt release rules for the others if they did bring em back. And everyone saying they would be over powered, I dont think thats true at all.. In a game with titans and green tides and all manner of massed firepower I think if anything a primarch would be a giant target lol..

I agree with you Weiss, its all about volume of fire... Still I think it would be a cool idea, its not like GW isnt making a killing on SC now anyways =)

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:not to mention Daemon Prince Primarchs. Angron only made an appearance in epic. He'd be a Gargantuan Creature at the very least, and would need some pretty whacked stats to represent his larger size.

Games Workshop actually made rules for Angron for Appoc.

Really? I wanna see then! (no sarcasm here. Really. I would love to see Angron's rules after I saw someone convert a model of him)

I belive they are in Appoc Reload.

That explains why I've never seen it. I only got the first Apoc book. Now if you'll excuse me, I have a purchase to make!

Yeah, my entire 1st company faced him. We slaugthered the entire daemon army. But took down a fair few of my forces at least 1 vanguard squad.
But anyway ontopic if the primarchs come back that would actually benefit the imperium alot. Because they are basically the emperor's clones walking around.
Khan is dead
Corax is probably just on vacation searching for some answers.'
Dorn is dead
Ferrus is dead
Sanginuis = Sangunior
Vulkan is alive, he promised he would return when they found all 9 relics which is going to happen real soon.
The Lion is healing, probaly just training and working on his brilliant tactics.
Russ is captured by the Iron Warriors.
Robute is rehealing.
Angron was banished for a very long time and he won't be back anytime soon.
Magnus is not doing so well, he has gone into his tower and no-longer comes out.
Motarion is having fun on his new world and doesn't want to leave.
Fulgrim is pleasuring himself and killing civilains in the eye of terror
Alpharius is dead
Omegon still lives and hates himself
Cruze is dead
Peturabo is torturing russ, which isn't working quite well
And I am being serious about all of these this is what they are doing.

Fulgrim might return to being a "good" primarch as it's hinted that the current Fulgrim is just a Daemon holding him captive in his own mind.

I just want to add that I think this is a good idea mostly because I would want to collect all of the miniatures. But then I collect more than I play.

Also for people stating that they would be too powerful, I think there are already enough instances of GW not being afraid of giving over-powered units to the game. I don't think that would be a good reason not to do it.

Grey Templar wrote:I belive they are in Appoc Reload.

They're not, they're in a WD issue.

He's essentially a beefed up Prince with an escort of Bloodthirsters. He's not a Gargantuan Creature.

good thing I didnt actually make the purchase then ^^; Heavy Snow outside.

I honestly think if they do bring the primarchs back, maybe as some sort of massive story arch... Its going to be all of them. I know what your thinking, a few of em might be less than alive. But I was thinking, at the end of fulgrim when the iron hands primarch is slain and what I believe is his soul or warp presence leaves.. Maybe the slain primarchs are reforming in the warp.. I mean if erebus can keep getting killed and brought back, why not a primarch... That would be kinda cool.. and if the primarchs did come back in the game.. would the Nova marines be able to use the super smurf primarch and would the crimson fists be able to use Dorn?