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Pros
WS 5
I 5
LD 9
5+ armor
2 Hand Weapons and Spears, uses both
Stubborn with Nobel/Highborn
50 point magic standard

Cons
12 Points each
Special choices if army isnt lead by a highborn
T 3
S 3




So my question is: Are Eternal Guard worth fielding?

Boy is this thread a horrid idea:
1. You have written all the rules of the unit. GW attack pandas are no doubt on their way.
2. Its multiple choice so i can vote both "yes" and "no".

Aside from that i think they fold like tissue paper, sorta like all elves.

EG allow for tricks/abuses of the Stubborn rules. They can be a nice tarpit/anvil while you flank with a hammer, like a big unit of Dryads, some Wardancers, a Treeman or a unit of Treekin. Be sure to have a BSB in range of the EG to minize the chance of a bad break test screwing up the plan.

The whole unit dies in the first round of CC and are worthless for anything at all. They are too expensive for what they do and can barely fight off units of half their model cost. I wont take them until the rules get revised or their points are cut in half.

Nice models, thats their only pro

If they are in a 5x5 block, they are getting 20 attacks at WS 5. They will be hitting most enemies on 3s. That is some serious power, plus they are I 5. In a 10x4 hoard they are getting 50 attacks, if that isnt scary, i dont know what is. Plus they are stubborn once you put a highborn or nobel in there.

UNREALPwnage wrote:If they are in a 5x5 block, they are getting 20 attacks at WS 5. They will be hitting most enemies on 3s. That is some serious power, plus they are I 5. In a 10x4 hoard they are getting 50 attacks, if that isnt scary, i dont know what is. Plus they are stubborn once you put a highborn or nobel in there.

But also extremely expensive and fragile for what they do. A unit like that is going to get a lot of magic and shooting thrown at it.

Lexx wrote:But also extremely expensive and fragile for what they do. A unit like that is going to get a lot of magic and shooting thrown at it.

As if, i just throw 25 saurus in.

That may be true, but what else do i have to put my general and mages in?

UNREALPwnage wrote:If they are in a 5x5 block, they are getting 20 attacks at WS 5. They will be hitting most enemies on 3s. That is some serious power, plus they are I 5. In a 10x4 hoard they are getting 50 attacks, if that isnt scary, i dont know what is. Plus they are stubborn once you put a highborn or nobel in there.

Yeah, that's some serious power; that is like what, 13 S3 hits? Hell, against night goblins with nets and shields, you'll even kill... 3.

These guys are an all around suck-fest. They are a combo of a half-ass hammer and a half-ass anvil. They do a little of both, but neither well.

-Matt

I can always lore of beast signature spell them and raise them to S&T4

UNREALPwnage wrote:I can always lore of beast signature spell them and raise them to S&T4

Lets say that they face saurus (HW+shield no champ), the elves would kill ~ 2 on the hit back 5 wide saurus would kill ~ 2, so models that cost a point less can take them when they're magic boosted. Not to mention what the numbers wil say if we apply this to marauders.

UNREALPwnage wrote:That may be true, but what else do i have to put my general and mages in?

The main thing being said here I feel is don't over invest in a large unit of these. Sure have a few ranks of of them and put a foot general in there or some such so he can get a look out sir roll and survive in combat. But what this unit can be good for is counter attacking the enemy once your magic and shooting have given his units a thorough beating. Don't take on enemy units on equal terms with them. If I was running wood elves I'd be keeping that mage away from combat anyway so he can keep casting magic. Maybe give him a mount. Or put him in a unit like glade guard.

Well the only reason i take them is to hold up the enemy for a turn or two so i can counter attack. They are the most durable unit i have aside from treekin.

5+ armor is not a pro.

It is a pro when your army has no armor or a 6+ for being mounted.

Or maybe it's a hint that your army shouldn't rely on armor.

Despite their failings, I use them as a character bunker. They are stubborn, that helps some. I think their cost (truly all wood elves' cost) is their biggest penalty.

I also keep either a treeman or a unit of treekin nearby so they are not commonly targeted.

Surprisingly I often have been able to flank units with them that are in combat with the bruiser units (mostly because most people don't fear them). In this way they also remove steadfast, which helps, and the 8 S3 attacks (plus character's attacks) seem to get a few wounds off everytime. Since their are no supporting attacks on the flanks, they have done ok for me.
I wish they were S4 or costed 9 points, but oh well . . . it's an old army book.

HoverBoy wrote:

Lexx wrote:But also extremely expensive and fragile for what they do. A unit like that is going to get a lot of magic and shooting thrown at it.

As if, i just throw 25 saurus in.

Shoot, I just use 20

Obviously they are not going to do well against saurus or other high toughness/well armored infantry, but if their stubborn holds you for 1 round while a unit of treekin, or wildriders or a treeman hits you in the flank, I think they have done their job.

Also not every army is T4 high AS (this is not 40K), against T3 lower AS armies this is a pretty effective unit. Still over-costed though. . .

It is a given that they are overpriced, but as our only RNF unit they are needed in any army.

"Needed" definitely isnt the word to use for them.

I am trying to get some more EG, so if you have some you are trying to get rid of, PM me and I would be willing to try to trade, I have IG and VC armies to trade for WE. So if you are interested please PM me.

UK /= US, postage would be a little much to be worth it

Probably true, i just converted up some EG and they turned out better than expected. Now if only i have more glade rider spears.

No no no... I'd rather have 30 archers than a similar sized unit of EG. Too overpriced and too easily killed.

How many Points for 30 HE Spearmen with full command? That way We can compare the two to eachother.

30 Dark Elf Warriors vs 15 Eternal Guard They are both 180 pts.

Each unit will be 5 wide and we will assume that it is the second round of combat, so no charge bonus.

After Round one, there are 12 eternal guard left and 24 Dark Elf Warriors
The eternal Guard will have 20 attacks, hit 13.3, wound 6.66, kill 5.55
The Dark Elf warriors will have 15 attacks, hit 7.5, wound 3.75, kill 2.5

After Round two, there are 10 Eternal Guard alive and 19 Dark Elf Warriors
The eternal guard will have 17 attacks, hit 11.3, wound 5.666, kill 4.7
The Dark Elf warriors will have 15 attacks, hit 7.5, wound 3.75, kill 2.5

After Round three, there are 7 eternal guard left alive and 15 dark elf warriors
The eternal guard will have 15 attacks, hit 10, wound 5, kill 4.1
The dark elf warriors will have 15 attacks, hit 7.5, wound 3.75, kill 2.5

After Round four, there are 5 eternal guard left and 12 dark elf warriors
The eternal guard will have 12 attacks, hit 8, wound 4, kill 3.3
The dark elf warriors will have 15 attacks, hit 7.5, wound 3.75, kill 2.5

After round five, there are 3 eternal guard and 9 dark elf warriors
the eternal guard will have 10 attacks, hit 6.6, wound 3.3, kill 2.8
the dark elf warriors will have 12 attacks, hit 6, wound 3, kill 2

After round six, there are 2 eternal guard and 7 dark elf warriors
The eternal guard will have 6 attacks, hit 4, wound 2, kill 1.66
the dark elf warriors will have 9 attaks, hit 4.5, wound 2.25, kill 1.5

After round seven there are 1 eternal guard and 6 dark elf warriors
The eternal guard will have 4 attacks, hit 2.66, wound 1.33, kill 1.1
the dark elf warriors will have 6 attacks, hit 3, wound 1.5, kill 1

After round eight there are 0 eternal guard and 5 dark elf warriors remaining
The eternal guard wil have 2 attacks, hit 1.33, wound .66, kill .555
The dark elf warriors will have 4 attacks, hit 2, wound 1, kill .66

So, it took 8 rounds of combat for
30 dark elf warriors to beat 15 eternal guard. We can tell that the eternal guard are the supperior troops with this. The eternal guard won combat 5 times, tied 2 times, and lost once. So for the combat to last all the way to the demise of the wood elves the dark elves would have had to pass thier break test 5 times. Odds suggest that the dark elves would have failed once or twice and fleed combat. The numbers prove that the wood elves will beat the cheapest and "best" spearman (point for point) in the game. The eternal guard are underrated. I have noticed that people are forgetting all their attackes that they are getting and all the skill of warriors.

Sure, they are 12 points, but each one is the equal of 2 or 3 spearmen in any other army. Eternal guard can be run in the numbers where they can slaughter enemy hordes. That is the math, the only problem is that they are $22.00 US for 5.

I have a few questions though.

Who said dark elf spearmen are the best?

Why not give the DE shields?

Why would you skip the first round of combat?
With eternal hatred those DE would have killed 5 (rounded down) guard and with shields only suffered 4 deaths (rounded down). DE are steadfast and +3 rank bonus. DE win first round of combat and EG are taking a break test on a 5 if they were charged or a 7 if they charged.

That isn't a bad comparison, but I would point out that the EG lost point for point

What is more worrisome though is that the 15 EG are a LOT more vulnerable to shooting than 30 DE. For those kind of points I think a unit really needs to be able to deal with some incoming damage, or else they can just be magic'd or shot to death while other elements have to deal with spears.

Dark elf spearmen are the best point for point, they give the best stats, and best specials. For only 6 points, they are perhaps one of the best core with spears.

I took them without shields so i could use simpler numbers. That way it was a 2-1 ratio instead of a different one.

I started in a second round of combat to remove thier specail abbilites (hatred and stubborn.) I did this so there can be a striat up comparrison of the two units in combat.

I will agree that 15 EG would die quickly to magic or shooting, but when there are treemen and treekin running about the EG are the last thing to be targeted. People underestimate them and their abbilites. The main point of this is to show that they can go toe to toe with an equal point value core unit and come out on top.

I picked DE spearmen because they were half the cost. They had a special rule that factored into price just like the eternal guard have. These guys are also the same inititive.

I am 90% sure that EG would beat HE spearmen of the same points cost in a striat up fight also.