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It (the wraithseer) seems like a fun pick. Not strictly competitive but a solid distraction carnifex. What I like most is the idea of taking 3 of them in a supreme command with scatter lasers. You get 6 casts, 3 denies, 36 T8/3+/5++ wounds and the ability to do damage in the psychic, shooting, and fight phases for around 320 points. They're almost not worth shooting at for your opponent due to their low damage output, but they are also extremely cheap and would make your opponent think twice about getting too close to them with their characters and vehicles. 12 scatter laser shots could also add up over time if your opponent chooses to ignore them and with the Iyanden trait they essentially won't degrade. Would be extremely annoying to deal with, if not necessarily a huge threat. Good for controlling the board and bullying enemy characters.

 Argive wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Random question, guys - are Support Weapons any good?

(I'd like to add a couple of HQs and a single Dark Reaper squad to my DE army, and I'm looking for a couple of cheap HS units to make up a Spearhead.)

If you look at the previous thread page we have just had a dicussion about it so might find that useful. Opinions vary.

I peroanly think they are a bit underrated and can be pretty useful. I'm looking to run 3 in my lists to try them out some more.

What about the D-Cannon variety (which wasn't discussed on the previous page)?

True it was not.

The D-Cannon is cool as fudge. Fluffwise it sounds amazing and looks cool. And it packs a wallop.

But at 24" range Heavy D3 shots and 45 points...(70pts with the chasis) nah I dont think it cuts the mustard if tahts even a phrase... The LOS ignore is cool but then again with 24" is it worth it? I think no because you will probably have to move to get range anyway so the LOS ignore kind of becomes redunand.

The support weapon wants to chill in the backfield not move and support fire. SHadoweavers are cheap mortar options to help clear chaff. I personaly like what the vibro cannon brings to the table. If Dcannon was assult D3 I think it would be fun.

Feels like it should go on a wraithlord but to be honest at current points/rules I wouldint run it on a lord. I think it strapping a d-cannon onto is a wraithseer for fun would be cool.


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 slave.entity wrote:
It (the wraithseer) seems like a fun pick. Not strictly competitive but a solid distraction carnifex. What I like most is the idea of taking 3 of them in a supreme command with scatter lasers. You get 6 casts, 3 denies, 36 T8/3+/5++ wounds and the ability to do damage in the psychic, shooting, and fight phases for around 320 points. They're almost not worth shooting at for your opponent due to their low damage output, but they are also extremely cheap and would make your opponent think twice about getting too close to them with their characters and vehicles. 12 scatter laser shots could also add up over time if your opponent chooses to ignore them and with the Iyanden trait they essentially won't degrade. Would be extremely annoying to deal with, if not necessarily a huge threat. Good for controlling the board and bullying enemy characters.

I like the idea of a wraithseer. Imo Its a much bettter wraithlord. Yeah only one heavy weapon slot but more wounds, invuln and psychic. sounds worth it for 20more points.
Does he block targeting for other characters btw??

Characters can never block for characters.

Unless has 10w wounds. Basically if you can be screened you can'" screen yourself

 slave.entity wrote:
It (the wraithseer) seems like a fun pick. Not strictly competitive but a solid distraction carnifex. What I like most is the idea of taking 3 of them in a supreme command with scatter lasers. You get 6 casts, 3 denies, 36 T8/3+/5++ wounds and the ability to do damage in the psychic, shooting, and fight phases for around 320 points. They're almost not worth shooting at for your opponent due to their low damage output, but they are also extremely cheap and would make your opponent think twice about getting too close to them with their characters and vehicles. 12 scatter laser shots could also add up over time if your opponent chooses to ignore them and with the Iyanden trait they essentially won't degrade. Would be extremely annoying to deal with, if not necessarily a huge threat. Good for controlling the board and bullying enemy characters.

I hadn't thought about three in a Supreme Command Detachment. I like the option of taking the Missile Launcher for utility, but costs a bit more than the Scatter Laser.

I may have missed something, but what powers are worth casting? They all felt very underwhelming, but the additional Deny attempts has merit.

 Sarigar wrote:
With the FAQ out, is the Wraithseer worth another look? It had a significant points drop months ago and now has additional bonuses post FAQ. I've used it in the past with the old points value and it was fun, but a bit on the 'meh' side.

Yes, I think the Wraithseer is definitely worth a look now. More than that, I would say it is the best option we have for an Ynnari Warlord!

Here is an idea for an Ynnari Spearhead detachment that looks pretty promising on paper. I have taken the Visarch as my mandatory Triumvirate HQ because he is the cheapest and rerolls of 1 in melee is not bad. Feel free to substitute him for Yvraine if you want more psychic support or even the Yncarne if you want another big monster.

HQ Visarch
HQ Wraithseer (Warlord: Walker of Many Paths, Relic: Lost Shroud, Psyker, Shield of Ynnead)

Heavy: Wraithlord, 2 Shuricannons and Glaive
Heavy: Wraithlord, 2 Shuricannons and Glaive
Heavy: Wraithlord, 2 Shuricannons and Glaive

This is simple, a big blob of Wraithlords Advancing towards your opponent, firing their Shuricannons for chaff clearance as they go and benefiting from a 5++ thanks to "Shield of Ynnead". The Spiritseer gets builtin rerolls thanks to his Warlord Trait as well as CP regen on a 5+. Once they reach combat, they hit like a freight train and can easily drop a Knight on the charge or spread out to threaten multiple targets. The above build comes in at just over 600 points and provides you 42 T8 wounds behind a 3+/5++ (with a 6+++ if you chuck the Yncarne instead of the Visarch).

The Lost Shroud halves all damage that the Spiritseer takes and gives him a 5+++ as well. Even though his Character status does not protect him from shooting with 12 Wounds, he will be pretty hard to get rid of. An alternative combo would be the WL trait "Lord of Rebirth" which gives him a 5+++ as well as regenerating 1 wound at the start of each turn. Then him him the Mirrogaze relic for -1 to Hit on all attacks targeting him.

Someone mentioned in the other thread that Wraithseers can't smite. That really sucks. Kind of a dealbreaker for me personally tbh.

I am interested in where this is going. I tend to use my assault elements in a counter attack, but this Ynarri themed Spearhead looks promising and fun. I really like the Wraithlord model and would love to be able to field three and not feel like I completely gimped my army.

Thanks for the feedback. It gives me some ideas to work off of.

I do not believe the wraithseer replaces his unique psychic powers with the Revenant discipline. With that being the case, just swap the Visarch for Yvraine and get access to 2 powers.
However, I don't know why you would take wraithlords over more wraithseers now. Compare the 2.

Wraithlord with glaive 95pts
Wraithseer with spear 100pts

The Lord does have built in shuricatapults and access to 2 heavy weapons, but the seer has 2 more wounds, an inbuilt 5+ invulnerable, is a psyker, and is a character therefore can be given relics and traits. He also has access to 2 heavy weapons the Lord does not get plus his spear gets to reroll wounds of 1 vs vehicles.

To me, it's just not a competition unless you were taking 3 seers and 3 Lords (which is actually kind of interesting in itself).

As mentioned in the Ynnari thread, my little go to detachment may be a Supreme Command with 2 wraithseers (one with walker of many paths and lost shroud, other with lord of rebirth for +1CP), Yvraine, 5 wraithblades and a wave serpent. I'm thinking of giving the Seers wraithcannons over D-cannons just because I expect them to be moving (although the one with walker gets a reroll per turn so may benefit more from a D-Cannon)

 Argive wrote:
True it was not.

The D-Cannon is cool as fudge. Fluffwise it sounds amazing and looks cool. And it packs a wallop.

But at 24" range Heavy D3 shots and 45 points...(70pts with the chasis) nah I dont think it cuts the mustard if tahts even a phrase... The LOS ignore is cool but then again with 24" is it worth it? I think no because you will probably have to move to get range anyway so the LOS ignore kind of becomes redunand.

The support weapon wants to chill in the backfield not move and support fire. SHadoweavers are cheap mortar options to help clear chaff. I personaly like what the vibro cannon brings to the table. If Dcannon was assult D3 I think it would be fun.

Feels like it should go on a wraithlord but to be honest at current points/rules I wouldint run it on a lord. I think it strapping a d-cannon onto is a wraithseer for fun would be cool.

That's a shame. I was hoping they might be a useful addition to my DE army. I'd even made a model for one.

Oh well, thanks for the advice.

 bullyboy wrote:
I do not believe the wraithseer replaces his unique psychic powers with the Revenant discipline. With that being the case, just swap the Visarch for Yvraine and get access to 2 powers.
However, I don't know why you would take wraithlords over more wraithseers now. Compare the 2.

Wraithlord with glaive 95pts
Wraithseer with spear 100pts

The Lord does have built in shuricatapults and access to 2 heavy weapons, but the seer has 2 more wounds, an inbuilt 5+ invulnerable, is a psyker, and is a character therefore can be given relics and traits. He also has access to 2 heavy weapons the Lord does not get plus his spear gets to reroll wounds of 1 vs vehicles.

To me, it's just not a competition unless you were taking 3 seers and 3 Lords (which is actually kind of interesting in itself).

As mentioned in the Ynnari thread, my little go to detachment may be a Supreme Command with 2 wraithseers (one with walker of many paths and lost shroud, other with lord of rebirth for +1CP), Yvraine, 5 wraithblades and a wave serpent. I'm thinking of giving the Seers wraithcannons over D-cannons just because I expect them to be moving (although the one with walker gets a reroll per turn so may benefit more from a D-Cannon)

For my army, it creates a solid firebase. I like a Wraithlord with 2 AML: I don't take the Glaive or Flamers so the model is relatively cheap and fists give me fixed damage vs the Glaive d6. Yvraine being able to provide a 5++ aura has appeal. With a Wraithseer with another AML, the entire detachment is around 650 points and provides the counter attack capability in my list. I also run two other Battalions with over 60 Guardians, so this new detachment has me quite interested.

The big thing I am looking at is whether the loss of Doom for these models are worth being run as an Ynarri detachment. I'd also lose the Alaitoc Trait. I'm not sure, but I think I'd also lose the Autarch reroll 1 to hit. For me, a few things to consider.

I personally have not been a fan of the D Cannon this edition and I don't put a lot of stock into a Wraithcannon for this model due to my army build.

Anyone know what the top 3 Eldar ran in CTC?

Alternate thought for the Wraithseer Cadre:

Supreme Command Wraith Host Detachment. A whole passel of pain with rerollable charges and T8 3+/5++ with a -1 to be hit or a 6+++ at a minimum of 300 points.

That's intriguing at a minimum

Unrelated hilarious Supreme Command possibility now:

Yvraine
Eldrad
Sky-Seer

400 points of psyker shenanigans.

I used a Wraithseer and three Wraithlords at a campaign weekend. It was pre-new-Ynnari, and I was using Iyanden for them to keep their stats from degrading.

Their main virtue is that even a concentration of firepower is unlikely to get rid of all of them. If you can shelter each of them differently to force your opponent to split fire, you can keep them all alive and operating at full or close to full efficiency due to the Iyanden trait (or via other methods from Ynnari). When two or more of them hit, they hit like a mountain.

It wasn't a competitive environment though, so take with a pinch of salt.

karandrasss wrote:
Anyone know what the top 3 Eldar ran in CTC?

3 Crimson Hunter Exarchs, 1 Hemlock and 1 Nightwing.
Yvraine, Warlock Skyrunner, Farseer Skyrunner, 3x 5 Rangers, 9 Shining Spears, 10 Dark Reapers.

So this must have been an event using pre-Ynnari White Dwarf and pre-faq rules.


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As for Wraithseers, I’m not feeling them myself.

Sure, a single 1 as Ynnari could work with the half damage taken trait, but, then you’re just asking to give up Warlord on the first turn, as, if you can kill a Knight in 1 turn, you can certainly kill a Wraithseer in 1 turn. Likewise, if you’re facing 3, if you can kill a Knight, you can kill 2 non-WL Wraithseers.

Same goes for supreme commands of 3. It all comes down to what you’re giving up in order to put the 3 in, and, it is worth re-noting that they cannot cast Smite. Their 3 powers are a 6+++ for Wraithblades/Guard/Lords, an additional D6 for advancing and charging (discarding the lowest) for the Blades/Guard/Lords and a -1 Ld penalty for all enemy units within 6” of the Seer. Pretty shockingly bad powers imo, especially if you’re just running 3 of them without Blades/Guard/Lords. They can also cast 2 powers each as well, so the 3rd one is never going to be casting anything and the 2nd, only 1 power.

They also only have 4 attacks as well, so, you’re not going to be fighting your way through hordes very well, Knights will still destroy you, you’ll never reach a T’au gunline and Flyers will still move block you with ease due to the base 8” move and large round base – not to mention the fact that movement gets degraded on the profile as well.

If they could smite, then maybe they’d be worth looking at in numbers, but, as they are, without them supporting other Wraith units they just feel like 100+ points of target practice that you’re taking away from the rest of your army for a turn.

So you probably can't take revenant powers on a wraithseer, but if you take one in a wraith detachment, you can swap out one of it's powers for twilight gloom.

Compared to a base wraithlord though (85 pts to 100), a Wraithseer gets a free, better ghost glaive, two more wounds, a deny the witch attempt, self buffs in the form of it's powers (including maybe Twilight Gloom), and access to relics and warlord traits. Oh, and an invulnerable save.

it loses access to the two shuriken catapults/flamers, and one heavy weapon, but can take a wraith cannon, or D-cannon.

Seems to me like an upgrade overall.

Are Fire Prisms a good counter against flyer spam? Anyone got the math?

karandrasss wrote:
Are Fire Prisms a good counter against flyer spam? Anyone got the math?

Not really. Apart from the random d3 rolling that is going to suck at the time that you needed it the most, linked fire stratagem needs you to pick a single enemy target for all prisms. Alaitoc Hemlock is going to use 'lightning reflexes' on the first prism and then you need a 6+ to hit. Better to get shining spears and assault them.

shogun wrote:

karandrasss wrote:
Are Fire Prisms a good counter against flyer spam? Anyone got the math?

Not really. Apart from the random d3 rolling that is going to suck at the time that you needed it the most, linked fire stratagem needs you to pick a single enemy target for all prisms. Alaitoc Hemlock is going to use 'lightning reflexes' on the first prism and then you need a 6+ to hit. Better to get shining spears and assault them.

But Shining Spears need so much support to get to their target and not die instantly that I wonder if they're still worth bringing, especially against other matchups. You can always force your opponent to use the -1 strat elsewhere or capitalize when they don't

Doesn't the Hemlock get to overwatch? All those autohits.

 Eldarsif wrote:
Doesn't the Hemlock get to overwatch? All those autohits.

Unless being charged by a unit that specifically has "ignores overwatch" rules, yes.

Side note: has anyone played with Hornets recently? I've been working on re-tooling my competitive lists and still have landed on anything I'm in love with. I was revisiting these and at 110pt with dual hornet pulse lasers, they're looking like an attractive option, similar to how I've used dissie ravagers in the past.

Pretty good survivability with -2 to hit with Alaitoc and advancing. A unit of 3 are prime candidates for guide and debating between doom or fortune as the secondary power.

Hornet lasers are heavy so no -1 from advancing I'm afraid.


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As for flyers, dark reapers look like the best option, always hitting on threes is pretty hard to beat. Hemlocks also look good for obvious reasons.

kingheff wrote:
Hornet lasers are heavy so no -1 from advancing I'm afraid.


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As for flyers, dark reapers look like the best option, always hitting on threes is pretty hard to beat. Hemlocks also look good for obvious reasons.

Well suppose I should have just factored in the cost for the CTM as it's pretty much an auto-include.

karandrasss wrote:
Are Fire Prisms a good counter against flyer spam? Anyone got the math?

Not particularly. As others have said, you need the strat to get any mileage and even then, LFR hits it pretty hard.

Dark Reapers are by far and away our best ranged anti-aircraft unit. Always hitting on a 3+, solid damage output and access to the flakk-equivalent stratagem if you give the Exarch a missile launcher.

 wannabmoy wrote:

kingheff wrote:
Hornet lasers are heavy so no -1 from advancing I'm afraid.


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As for flyers, dark reapers look like the best option, always hitting on threes is pretty hard to beat. Hemlocks also look good for obvious reasons.

Well suppose I should have just factored in the cost for the CTM as it's pretty much an auto-include.

Remember that CTM only works if you are targeting the closest enemy unit. So, you have to pretty much get next to a flyer to use it effectively.

Also doesn't mean you can advance and shoot a heavy weapon.

Can't fire the Hornet Pulse Laser if you advance.

I think they have their place for 110 points. I've been trying to work them into my lists after their points change. 2 Hornets with an Autarch nearby provides a fairly solid firing platform.

How good are scatbikes without double shoot?

karandrasss wrote:
How good are scatbikes without double shoot?

Amazing. I never leave home without at least 1 squad of 9 or 2 squads of 6