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I had not clocked that the first Vibrocannon didn’t need to hit for the bonus! Interesting...

In other news - yay for page 113 of this thread! This makes me happy for reasons I won’t bore any of you with

My favorite Serpent nowadays is TSC + Catapult + Spirit stones if able or Scatter Laser + Catapult + preferably nothing else.

Shadow Weavers are probably best if objective play is very important for you, but there are also Tempest Launchers which are pretty damn good.

NuhJuhKuh wrote:
Thanks for the input @Asmodas! Unfortunately I don’t have all the same models as you, but maybe when I’m closer to an actual games vs GSC I’ll post my collections and pick your brains. For an optimized list. Interesting take on Rangers BTW - I’ve been finding mine mire and more useful, but maybe I just need to learn how to use Guardian Defenders better. What do you think of Dire Avengers? I have enough for three minimum units, each Exarch armed differently.

What about in game tactics/threat assessment though? What has to die first? What do I need to be wary of, what can I ignore? What can I distract with a throwaway unit?

Cheers!
Neil

Happy to help! I tend to build my models based on “rule of cool” more than whatever is the new hotness but in the cas did the wraithblades it paid off, as they are now a pretty good. Especially in the wraith host specialist detachment. I can see most varieties of wraiths being pretty good against cult other than the cannon variety.

As far as rangers go, I think you could still make them work as flankers. They can be placed on objectives to the right and/or left of your deployment zone to push back deep strikers. Just don’t make the mistake of putting them somewhere that could lead them to get a first turn charge. The reason I don’t like them for this matchup is they are really bad in melee, and have essentially no overwatch, and thus fold up like a wet noodle as soon as something threatens them in combat.

Dire avengers are pretty good in this matchup, in contrast. I would start them in wave serpents to protect them from autogun and autocannon fire, and then dump them out once the cultists start ambushing you. They have that tasty 5+ overwatch, and with reroll 1s from Biel Tan they can really kill a lot of 5+ save guys quickly. I also tend to use the guardian bomb (20 guardians in the web way with a shuriken cannon platform), which I hold back until he commits his forces. It should be able to delete a more expensive enemy infantry unit, even without Doom. Just don’t expect it to last long after the drop. Also, don’t be afraid to drop them in your own deployment zone if you need another blocking unit - this has won me games before.

A couple other things - never blow the serpent shield if you can help it. Most genecult lists use rock saws for anti-tank, and they do a flat 2 damage and per wound. Be aware of this and keep your shield up. The saws are a lot less dangerous at 1 damage per wound. Also, do your best to keep your psykers alive so you can deny his nasty psychic powers - particularly mental onslaught. If you are using a farseer and he takes that power on his Patriarch, hold back your deny for that power, and try to use spiritseers/warlocks to deny might from beyond, which is the other key power.

NuhJuhKuh wrote:
Previously though I’ve always deployed them as one clump, and for sure that means they can benefit from “Vaul’s Battery” or whatever the Firetruck that strategem’s called when the situation arises, but as I’ve got the slots for 3 in the Spearhead, figured I’d get them separately and have options during deployment.

FYI the support weapons don't have to be in the same grouping, they just have to have the same <Craftworld>. It also only works on 2 platforms regardless of whether they are in the same group or not. Also they don't even need to be the same weapon all that is required is that they are support weapons with the same craftworld designation.

A couple other things - never blow the serpent shield if you can help it. Most genecult lists use rock saws for anti-tank, and they do a flat 2 damage and per wound. Be aware of this and keep your shield up. The saws are a lot less dangerous at 1 damage per wound.

Aren't those melee weapons?

Yep melee so wave serpent shield doesn't affect them anyway

tneva82 wrote:
Yep melee so wave serpent shield doesn't affect them anyway

I'm learning loads in this thread!

Hmm I really want to try a 20-elf Guardian bomb, so might rejig things to fit in a unit of DAs so I still have 3 troops choices.

tneva82 wrote:
Yep melee so wave serpent shield doesn't affect them anyway

D’oh! You’re right. I forgot about the fact that the serpent shield only affects shooting? I don’t think I’ve ever made the mistake in a game, thankfully, but it must have slipped my mind. In any case, it’s still probably worth holding back the shield as the cult can easily spam multi-damage ranged weapons (autocannons on goliaths, mining lasers, demo charges).

I never leave home without a 20 man guardian blob w/ 2 cannons. Never.

I'm trying to decide which is better a war walker with 2 Shuriken Cannons or a Vyper with 2 Shuriken Cannons. They are each the same point cost and I'm thinking of operating them in a group of 3.

Any tips/ideas?

I've never used Vypers but 3 War Walkers are almost always an auto-take for me because they're fun and they can dish out some mean firepower. The invulnerable save makes them pretty durable and if you take them with Alaitoc or Ulthwe it helps them even more. They also have battle focus which makes them great if you take them with stock cannons.

Neither is the unit I'd take on its own merits because their shooting is average and amount of shots is somewhat underwhelming, but they can be useful to fill a Brigade. I am more of a fan of Vypers probably, because of Fly. One Vyper with SC + TSC equals 2 Windriders with SC, but is obviously more survivable in every way.

Is there some build or version of the wraithknight that's a good counter to Imperial Knights?

Short answer, no.

 aka_mythos wrote:
Is there some build or version of the wraithknight that's a good counter to Imperial Knights?

Short answer, no.

Slightly longer answer, a Wraithknight with Sword and Shield has a slight edge over most Imperial Knights in melee (apart from the Gallant) IF it can get there without being blown to pieces on the way in. If you can manage to charge a Wraithknight into a shooty Knight like a Crusader or Castellan then you should be able to do 12 wounds on average which is a significant amount of damage. However the challenge is getting there.

Also if you don't kill the target on the charge (and you won't if it was at full health), then it will walk out of combat in its turn and blast you with its guns and as many of it buddies' guns as it takes to bring the Wraithknight down.

The best tools in our armoury for killing Imperial Knights are to bring in some Dark Eldar or Harelquin allies with massed haywire. Doom the Imperial Knight and then blow it away with a boat-load of mortal wounds. Next best choice is Jinx and linked Fire prisms followed by Jinx+Guide+Doom Reapers.

There are also some hidden counters in our army that will not drop a Knight by themselves but offer an efficient way of stripping off some extra wounds. Wraithlords with a Sword will hit and wound Knights on a 3+ in melee with no saves and D6 damage per wounding hit. They are fast enough to get close fairly quickly, durable enough to take a few hits on the way in and cheap enough that losing one won't be the end of the day.

In general it is very much a case of combined arms. We don't have anything like BA's Captain Smash who can reliably drop a Questoris on the charge but we do have plenty of units that offer a high damage output for their points. Put Doom and Jinx onto your target and open up with every long ranged gun you can manage.

Some changes with the Faq, Forge wraith units now gain Wraoth Construct so can be used in vigilus detachment, Wraithseer boosted up to T 8, makes me quite jappy for my wraith lists.

I am building a 1000 point list for a doubles tournament in september. I am need of some objective grabbers. Are 5 stock windriders able to furfill that role? Fast. Cheap and able to stay out of line of sight for most of the game most probably

My partner will play kabel drukhari with mostly venoms and Ravagers. My list revolves around rangers and fliers.

Does the nerf to Imperial Knights aid the viability of Wraithknights at all or are they still not good enough to take based on their current stats?

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
Does the nerf to Imperial Knights aid the viability of Wraithknights at all or are they still not good enough to take based on their current stats?

The melee wraith actually benefits well from ynnari.

Seems like GW broke Phantasm - due to wording of new rules for units removed and set up again, you can't move units deployed via it.

Although there's sorta loophole since it states models can't move "that turn", but Phantasm is "before first turn has begun". Still Phantasm does fall into category of stratagems used after deployment, so if they ask you, you got an answer there.

I posted a list in the Army list section, but I need some feedback regarding my Spiritseers power. Should I go with Quicken for my Spears, or Protect?


Quicken seem like a goo way to get a turn 1 charge after clearing some chaff, but Protect seems to have more use in later turns

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The problem with quicken is that you need to be able to cast it reliably to make the most of it. If you set yourself up to use it in your movement phase, and then fail to cast it, your spears are left with their asses in the breeze.

You can of course play it safe so that the spears have a back up plan if quicken doesn't go off, but then you're not making the most of it.

I only put quicken on Psykers that have a bonus to cast, either the reroll tests WL trait, or a warlock that can use the seer council strat (and a CP reroll).

So is flyer spam going to be the only competitive list until CA2019?

karandrasss wrote:
So is flyer spam going to be the only competitive list until CA2019?

Competitive yeah, but I wouldn't say the "only" competitive list. The FAQ did nerf them a bit in that you can not longer use them to outright block movement. Models can go "under" them now and suffer no penalties for falling back from them.
You can still use them to block in a way, because models still cannot be "on" the Flyer's base, but you have to plan accordingly to make sure the enemy models cannot move past the Flyer's base to stop them

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
The problem with quicken is that you need to be able to cast it reliably to make the most of it. If you set yourself up to use it in your movement phase, and then fail to cast it, your spears are left with their asses in the breeze.

You can of course play it safe so that the spears have a back up plan if quicken doesn't go off, but then you're not making the most of it.

I only put quicken on Psykers that have a bonus to cast, either the reroll tests WL trait, or a warlock that can use the seer council strat (and a CP reroll).

Agreed then, Protect it will be.
Although I usually can get the Spears within 12" of something without Quicken, it just makes for an easier charge, or getting closer to the "real" target.
I've failed it, but then been able to use Fire & Fade after shooting with them to get out of 12" range/in cover and then use Lightning Fast Reflexes if they shot them.
-2 to be hit and potentially in cover keeps them fairly well durable. Plus Fortune.
But Fortune + Protect would probably allow me to be more aggressive (i.e. not have to hide in cover)

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Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
The problem with quicken is that you need to be able to cast it reliably to make the most of it. If you set yourself up to use it in your movement phase, and then fail to cast it, your spears are left with their asses in the breeze.

You can of course play it safe so that the spears have a back up plan if quicken doesn't go off, but then you're not making the most of it.

I only put quicken on Psykers that have a bonus to cast, either the reroll tests WL trait, or a warlock that can use the seer council strat (and a CP reroll).

Does the WT reroll both psychic test dice or just one? It specifies one hit/wound/save roll, but not psychic roll.

If you mean SotSV, it re-rolls Psychic Test, and that is, like a Charge Roll, two dice - when you re-roll Charge Rolls, you re-roll both dice, and I'd say so is true for Psychic Test or Deny the Witch.

 Shadenuat wrote:
If you mean SotSV, it re-rolls Psychic Test, and that is, like a Charge Roll, two dice - when you re-roll Charge Rolls, you re-roll both dice, and I'd say so is true for Psychic Test or Deny the Witch.

Agreed. While is does say you get to re-roll a 'single' hit roll, wound roll, save roll, it also says Psychic TEST, not roll.
A Farseer with SotSV gets to reroll both powers, one for SotSV, the other for Runes of the Farseer

Although with my list, I prefer Mark of the Hunter for my Reaper Launcher Autarch to snipe characters. Usually 1 Command reroll + Runes of the Farseer are enough to make for a decent Psychic phase.
I'll generally resolve my power in order of priority, so usually Doom, then Fortune for my Farseer, Jinx from 1 Hemlock, then Protect from the Spriritseer, then Smite from my other Hemlock
The Farseer rarely fails both power attempts, thus only needing RotF and not SotSV

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Random question, guys - are Support Weapons any good?

(I'd like to add a couple of HQs and a single Dark Reaper squad to my DE army, and I'm looking for a couple of cheap HS units to make up a Spearhead.)

 vipoid wrote:
Random question, guys - are Support Weapons any good?

(I'd like to add a couple of HQs and a single Dark Reaper squad to my DE army, and I'm looking for a couple of cheap HS units to make up a Spearhead.)

If you look at the previous thread page we have just had a dicussion about it so might find that useful. Opinions vary.

I peroanly think they are a bit underrated and can be pretty useful. I'm looking to run 3 in my lists to try them out some more.

With the FAQ out, is the Wraithseer worth another look? It had a significant points drop months ago and now has additional bonuses post FAQ. I've used it in the past with the old points value and it was fun, but a bit on the 'meh' side.