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Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Jidmah wrote:
Why is it that people always take units that literally no one considers to be even halfway decent as a point of reference?


because if you used the good stuff you'd have a lot harder time arguing that "X is clearly OP!"

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in is
Wicked Warp Spider




Iceland

Nobody should be using Predators as a metric for anything. Predators have been garbage for a few editions now and does not represent the full capacity of a Space marine force.

Craftworlds | Drukhari | Dark Angels | Necrons || Tyranids | Death Guard | Sisters of Battle | Chaos Knights

Daughters of Khaine | Blades of Khorne | Stormcast Eternals | Flesh-Eater Courts | Idoneth Deepkin | The Legion of Chaos Ascendant
 
   
Made in nl
Perturbed Blood Angel Tactical Marine




netherlands

dont try to kill DG whit bolter or lasgun fire, use heavy bolters, plasma, autocannons and so for, my best friend playes DG and my plan is alway to shoot him up and finisch him in close combat
yes its hard to do, but it can be done. what do you think DG will die from small arms fire )

full compagny of bloodangels,
5000 pnt imperial guard
5000 pnt orks
2500 pnt grey knights
5000 pnt gsc 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




Edit:

Never mind, it's a personal opinion that using 18+ lascannon shots to kill a sub 200 point vehicle feels a chore. The metric or comparisons aren't really relevant, it's a subjective feeling.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/11/18 10:08:42


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Dudeface wrote:
Edit:

Never mind, it's a personal opinion that using 18+ lascannon shots to kill a sub 200 point vehicle feels a chore. The metric or comparisons aren't really relevant, it's a subjective feeling.


This is why you've ditched lascannons for multimeltas/eradicators.

Anyway, I think the line is to be tough but not too tough. Not really DG - but while from a design perspective nuking "mass Plaguebearers+Tzeentch mortal wound spam" from orbit was kind of lame, from a gameplay approach it didn't seem especially fun. I felt it reduced the game very explicitly to rolling dice (which is to a degree always there, but still).
Its kind of the problem with all "toughness builds" - whether its via feel no pains, stacked minuses to hit etc.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Yes, durable units are supposed to be durable and lascannons are bad. In other news, ultramarines are blue and orks like to fight.

To put your numbers in context, a defiler still takes 14 lascannons to kill (21 when upgraded with DR), an impulsor with shield dome 13, an ork wazzbom 16 and the mighty allaitoc wave serpent also takes 18.

And I wouldn't exactly consider 160/170 points "cheap" for what's essentially a LRBT (205/195) without grinding advance, less range and no army trait whatsoever.

So going through them might feel like chore, but it's really more of a head thing. Other durable vehicles in that weight category require similar amounts of damage to kill.
Personally, I would say that when people despair because the Death Guard feels unkillable, GW has gotten their fluff perfectly right

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/18 10:41:49


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




 Jidmah wrote:
Yes, durable units are supposed to be durable and lascannons are bad. In other news, ultramarines are blue and orks like to fight.

To put your numbers in context, a defiler still takes 14 lascannons to kill (21 when upgraded with DR), an impulsor with shield dome 13, an ork wazzbom 16 and the mighty allaitoc wave serpent also takes 18.

And I wouldn't exactly consider 160/170 points "cheap" for what's essentially a LRBT (205/195) without grinding advance, less range and no army trait whatsoever.

So going through them might feel like chore, but it's really more of a head thing. Other durable vehicles in that weight category require similar amounts of damage to kill.
Personally, I would say that when people despair because the Death Guard feels unkillable, GW has gotten their fluff perfectly right


I agree and want them to be hard to kill and durable and you're 100% that it's a perception issue, I think it comes from the durability and damage reduction being A random and B utterly out of your control. If they had a flat -damage or some other modifier, you're firing at them knowing you're going to struggle to hurt them. With DR, mentally, it's frustrating seeing the damage you've already dealt be waved away by a random amount (I know it's 33% playing averages, but it doesn't always work out that way).

Again as a personal feeling on the topic, it would feel less oppressive to have the damage applied with more room to take it than just have your efforts wiped out by an additional layer of saves, but everyone will feel differently on that.

I'd hasten to add that same russ you consider superior can only take 8 lascannon shots as well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/18 11:07:08


 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Someone in the DG thread mathed out that -1 to wound would statistically be really close to what 5+ FNP does, would that change how you feel about shooting them?

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




 Jidmah wrote:
Someone in the DG thread mathed out that -1 to wound would statistically be really close to what 5+ FNP does, would that change how you feel about shooting them?


Definitely, it makes it a choice in my hands to make since I can reliably predict the output rather than there being another layer of RNG.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





 Marshal Loss wrote:
Looks like a fake to me; rule describes Daemons yet the art above features DG fighting Tau, numerous spelling mistakes (e.g. indured), etc.


Indured isn't a spelling mistake... it's an incorrect use of a real but redundant form of endure. It wouldn't be impossible for an editor and writer to both be of a generation or background that still uses older english words they don't truly understand.

The loss of a 5+ FNP is quite sad as it was a staple, flavoursome part of the DG/Nurgle. I can see them adding the 5+ back it in as part of the battle forge bonus, some form of doctrine addition or even as a unique plague host (as the trend has been to boost mono-factions) but we'll see. I hope it's balanced in other ways (maybe they'll get more toughness or wounds) but I am doubtful and think this will just be a straight up nerf.

- 10,000 pts CSM  
   
Made in us
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine




Australia

Semper wrote:
 Marshal Loss wrote:
Looks like a fake to me; rule describes Daemons yet the art above features DG fighting Tau, numerous spelling mistakes (e.g. indured), etc.


Indured isn't a spelling mistake... it's an incorrect use of a real but redundant form of endure. It wouldn't be impossible for an editor and writer to both be of a generation or background that still uses older english words they don't truly understand.


Yeah, uh



I doubt that GW copy and pasted the same text but changed inured to an obsolete form of spelling at a whim. It's likely fake

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/18 13:07:49


Emperor's Children
The Fourth Seal  
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Marshal Loss wrote:
Semper wrote:
 Marshal Loss wrote:
Looks like a fake to me; rule describes Daemons yet the art above features DG fighting Tau, numerous spelling mistakes (e.g. indured), etc.


Indured isn't a spelling mistake... it's an incorrect use of a real but redundant form of endure. It wouldn't be impossible for an editor and writer to both be of a generation or background that still uses older english words they don't truly understand.


Yeah, uh



I doubt that GW copy and pasted the same text but changed inured to an obsolete form of spelling at a whim. It's likely fake


This is the wording from codex DG by the way:

Those favoured by Nurgle are inured to pain, their rotting bodies shrugging off all but the most traumatic damage with ease.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






 skeleton wrote:
dont try to kill DG whit bolter or lasgun fire, use heavy bolters, plasma, autocannons and so for, my best friend playes DG and my plan is alway to shoot him up and finisch him in close combat
yes its hard to do, but it can be done. what do you think DG will die from small arms fire )


All joking apart? When fighting DG, the heck else am I gonna shoot my small arms at? They’re only wasted if I choose not to shoot them, no

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




GW to trademark "indured" confirmed.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 skeleton wrote:
dont try to kill DG whit bolter or lasgun fire, use heavy bolters, plasma, autocannons and so for, my best friend playes DG and my plan is alway to shoot him up and finisch him in close combat
yes its hard to do, but it can be done. what do you think DG will die from small arms fire )


All joking apart? When fighting DG, the heck else am I gonna shoot my small arms at? They’re only wasted if I choose not to shoot them, no


Poxwalkers, the troops choice you never see because everyone is souping in nurglings for cheap troops

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





Dudeface wrote:
Edit:

Never mind, it's a personal opinion that using 18+ lascannon shots to kill a sub 200 point vehicle feels a chore. The metric or comparisons aren't really relevant, it's a subjective feeling.


I mean yeah, it is. 25% return is just about where you'd want the damage output of a normal unit to be if you wanted to create a 5-turn game where it wasn't a normal thing for one player to be completely tabled by the end. 680 points to kill 190 points is over a 25% return, and the target it something that pays for a gak ton of durability.

I'm not seeing the problem.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




the_scotsman wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Edit:

Never mind, it's a personal opinion that using 18+ lascannon shots to kill a sub 200 point vehicle feels a chore. The metric or comparisons aren't really relevant, it's a subjective feeling.


I mean yeah, it is. 25% return is just about where you'd want the damage output of a normal unit to be if you wanted to create a 5-turn game where it wasn't a normal thing for one player to be completely tabled by the end. 680 points to kill 190 points is over a 25% return, and the target it something that pays for a gak ton of durability.

I'm not seeing the problem.


That's why it was a subjective opinion.

For what it's worth, a crawler with entropy cannons does 3.6 wounds to a russ. A russ with battle cannon and a las cannon hull weapon (nearest loadout parallel I could manage) is 10 points more and does 2.2 wounds in return.

The crawler is cheaper, does more damage and harder to hurt.

I'll also wait for the "but eradicators" response again.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/18 14:26:00


 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






My math says 2.926 damage for the LRBT. Did you include grinding advance and the heavy bolter?

In order to compare damage you also have to have both shoot the same target, not each other. A LRBT would deal 4.777 damage to another LRBT

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/18 14:31:44


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




 Jidmah wrote:
My math says 2.926 damage for the LRBT. Did you include grinding advance and the heavy bolter?


I did indeed but swapped the bolter for the las cannon. 7 battlecannon shots, 3.5 hit, 1.75 wound, 1.17 get past the save, 2 damage average = 2.34 damage or 1.5 after DR, lascannon 1 shot, 0.5 hit, 0.33 wounds, 0.22 past saves, becomes 0.77 damage which goes to .52 after DR.

So I fluffed up somewhere with the roundings but it's definitely nearer flat 2. If you took a HB instead, the HB does about 0.3.

In order to compare damage you also have to have both shoot the same target, not each other. A LRBT would deal 4.777 damage to another LRBT


Appreciate that, so the crawler does 75% of the damage but only takes 46% of the damage in return for less points. It's still notably better.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/18 14:37:51


 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Ah, I picked a twin las/heavy bolter/battlecannon LRBT because it matches the twin entropy/heavy slugger/plague mortar load-out more closely.

And I would agree that the PBC is better than a LRBT, but that wasn't ever up for discussion, was it?

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in at
Regular Dakkanaut





https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/11/18/space-marines-gladiator-model-focus/

Gladiator Tank will be up for preorder on 28th which means that will probably also be the preorder date for Death Guard and Blood Angels
   
Made in fi
Ye Lord of The End Times (and a good guy)





 Matrindur wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/11/18/space-marines-gladiator-model-focus/

Gladiator Tank will be up for preorder on 28th which means that will probably also be the preorder date for Death Guard and Blood Angels


Yep fits the trend with new codexes. First saturday of month codexes in store

2021 painted/bought: 146/105 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




 Jidmah wrote:
Ah, I picked a twin las/heavy bolter/battlecannon LRBT because it matches the twin entropy/heavy slugger/plague mortar load-out more closely.

And I would agree that the PBC is better than a LRBT, but that wasn't ever up for discussion, was it?


Well it kind of is, because it shows the PBC is disproportionately durable to it's peers without sacrificing enough. Either the humble leman russ needs to also become more durable, or the PBC needs to be less killy.

Or that the russ is pants, but then since the list of "good tanks" to use as a basis for comparison is small, it suggests that maybe the PBC is near the top of the scale.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/18 16:20:21


 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







tneva82 wrote:
 Matrindur wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/11/18/space-marines-gladiator-model-focus/

Gladiator Tank will be up for preorder on 28th which means that will probably also be the preorder date for Death Guard and Blood Angels


Yep fits the trend with new codexes. First saturday of month codexes in store


Hang on - haven't you repeatedly claimed that the pre-order date is the one GW uses to determine which month a release falls into? That would make DG and BA a November thing, not a December one.

You can't have it both ways, tneva.

2021 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My [url=https://pileofpotential.com/dysartes]Pile of Potential[/url - updates ongoing...

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

Dudeface wrote:

Well it kind of is, because it shows the PBC is disproportionately durable to it's peers without sacrificing enough. Either the humble leman russ needs to also become more durable, or the PBC needs to be less killy.

Or that the russ is pants, but then since the list of "good tanks" to use as a basis for comparison is small, it suggests that maybe the PBC is near the top of the scale.

The LRBT is about where it should be since it's able to be squadroned and supposed to be fielded en masse rather than super survivable.

Personal opinion there, I guess, but I feel it's why the Guard tanks should be the only real squadrons aside from AdMech and GSC.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/18 16:25:36


 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




 Kanluwen wrote:
Dudeface wrote:

Well it kind of is, because it shows the PBC is disproportionately durable to it's peers without sacrificing enough. Either the humble leman russ needs to also become more durable, or the PBC needs to be less killy.

Or that the russ is pants, but then since the list of "good tanks" to use as a basis for comparison is small, it suggests that maybe the PBC is near the top of the scale.

The LRBT is about where it should be since it's able to be squadroned and supposed to be fielded en masse rather than super survivable.

Personal opinion there, I guess, but I feel it's why the Guard tanks should be the only real squadrons aside from AdMech and GSC.


Yeah I agree with all this, A russ being less durable is fine but there isn't enough of a gap in firepower for the points to compensate imo
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

And that's where the squadron bit comes into play. You can take 3 PBCs tops vs 9 LRBTs.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






And let's not forget that LRBT also have much more range than PBC and can actually benefit from regimental doctrines.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/18 16:49:32


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in fi
Ye Lord of The End Times (and a good guy)





 Dysartes wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Matrindur wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/11/18/space-marines-gladiator-model-focus/

Gladiator Tank will be up for preorder on 28th which means that will probably also be the preorder date for Death Guard and Blood Angels


Yep fits the trend with new codexes. First saturday of month codexes in store


Hang on - haven't you repeatedly claimed that the pre-order date is the one GW uses to determine which month a release falls into? That would make DG and BA a November thing, not a December one.

You can't have it both ways, tneva.


Yes you can if gw changes things. I have no problems admitting gw changed their years long tradition. You do know things change right? What i stated has been correct until new codexes came that changed things

Sorry. Your attempt at needlling suffered epic fail  need to study years to do it

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/18 16:55:43


2021 painted/bought: 146/105 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

 Jidmah wrote:
And let's not forget that LRBT also have much more range than PBC and can actually benefit from regimental doctrines.

If you want to get technical about it...

Most regimental doctrines have a subsection that is applied to Infantry or vehicles. Only three(Mordian, Vostroyan, and Cadian) apply to vehicles and infantry both...and even then the Cadian Regimental Doctrine benefits Infantry more by adding a second caveat that bolsters the "Take Aim" Order when coupled with the unit not having moved.
   
 
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