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Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Spoiler:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
Tyel wrote:
Wouldn't be shocked if DG lost the 5+++, because it would be easier to balance offense/defence on a 6+++. As people have said, 2 wound plague marines with a 5++ would need to be quite expensive and it might have ended up being silly. (Can a 25 point unit really just have a boltgun for instance? Probably not.)


It's a good point, and with the removal of the 3++ Storm Shield it does feel like they are trying to reign in any weird mechanisms that have a negative effect on game enjoyment. I just hope that Death Guard get something nice in return, but we won't see until the end of the month/beginning og December.


TIL "any rule that might result in a thing I am targeting not immediately dying" = "weird mechanism that have a negative effect on game enjoyment."

Theres no reason why W2 plague marines with 5++ would be unbalanceable. DG termies are currently W2 models with 2+/5++/5+FNP. If they had to cost 24ppm and be extremely defensively oriented vs their offense, then...idk...great? Good? I'm glad there is a defensive army in 40k?


The way DG is implemented is unfun to play against a lot of the time. Roll an armys worth of shots and ping off a couple of wounds through 4-5 rounds of rolling dice, it's a massive time sink.

10 intercessors fire twice, reroll 1's to hit, wound rolls, reroll 1's to wound, saves, DR, DR rerolls (possibly) aaaaand you do 2-3 wounds for all that dice rolling.

Going from a 5+++ to a 6+++ wouldn't cut down on any dice rolling. And they're no more aggravating to kill than Custodes IMO. And most of that rolling you're complaining about is loyalists.


In part, but it's still mentally deflating to know that 3/4 of whatever you shoot is just wasted rolling most of the time. Powering up your havocs with stacking buffs and spending resources to then chip 4-5 wounds off a vehicle doesn't feel great

Perhaps, but it also doesn't feel good to have a 300+ PPM vehicle blown off the table in a single round of shooting from six eradicators that cost less than the vehicle in question. One would think gw could find a balance between the two. I'm not sure we should be complaining about an army that's actually durable with how killy most things in 40k currently are.


Hard to say, there's problems with how high output is, likewise there are problems with how fiddly implementation can be on defensive stats. Saying all that I'm not sure how to manage it without stripping out reroll auras or radically reinventing how they handle or define a defensive army.

Edit:
Quick thoughts to replace DR:
higher T or more W rather than damage avoidance mechanics
cloud of flies -1 to hit or maybe reduce targeting units range on their weapons
a fat damage reduction of 1 across the board to a minimum of 1
AP reduction

All things that require less rolling and make them hard to kill in some way

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/17 16:51:48


 
   
Made in us
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine




Australia

Higher T? Lol, c'mon. DR is fine as it is.

Emperor's Children
The Fourth Seal  
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

People hate when stuff they attack doesnt die, thats why everything has to die instantly.

The only exceptions are characters. People hate for their cool characters to die so they need to be inmortal. And kill imperial knights in a single meele round.

I like for stuff to be resilient. The problem of rolling 200 dice to remove 2 wounds of a DG unit is actually having to roll 200 dice on the first place.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/17 17:25:39


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




 Galas wrote:
People hate when stuff they attack doesnt die, thats why everything has to die instantly.

The only exceptions are characters. People hate for their cool characters to die so they need to be inmortal. And kill imperial knights in a single meele round.

I like for stuff to be resilient. The problem of rolling 200 dice to remove 2 wounds of a DG unit is actually having to roll 200 dice on the first place.


This sums it up nicely, the mental build up of firing X shots and being "this is loads of shots, this is gonna be great" doing all the rolling to convert to picking up 1-2 guys is both time consuming and demoralising often.
   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Dudeface wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Spoiler:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
Tyel wrote:
Wouldn't be shocked if DG lost the 5+++, because it would be easier to balance offense/defence on a 6+++. As people have said, 2 wound plague marines with a 5++ would need to be quite expensive and it might have ended up being silly. (Can a 25 point unit really just have a boltgun for instance? Probably not.)


It's a good point, and with the removal of the 3++ Storm Shield it does feel like they are trying to reign in any weird mechanisms that have a negative effect on game enjoyment. I just hope that Death Guard get something nice in return, but we won't see until the end of the month/beginning og December.


TIL "any rule that might result in a thing I am targeting not immediately dying" = "weird mechanism that have a negative effect on game enjoyment."

Theres no reason why W2 plague marines with 5++ would be unbalanceable. DG termies are currently W2 models with 2+/5++/5+FNP. If they had to cost 24ppm and be extremely defensively oriented vs their offense, then...idk...great? Good? I'm glad there is a defensive army in 40k?


The way DG is implemented is unfun to play against a lot of the time. Roll an armys worth of shots and ping off a couple of wounds through 4-5 rounds of rolling dice, it's a massive time sink.

10 intercessors fire twice, reroll 1's to hit, wound rolls, reroll 1's to wound, saves, DR, DR rerolls (possibly) aaaaand you do 2-3 wounds for all that dice rolling.

Going from a 5+++ to a 6+++ wouldn't cut down on any dice rolling. And they're no more aggravating to kill than Custodes IMO. And most of that rolling you're complaining about is loyalists.


In part, but it's still mentally deflating to know that 3/4 of whatever you shoot is just wasted rolling most of the time. Powering up your havocs with stacking buffs and spending resources to then chip 4-5 wounds off a vehicle doesn't feel great

Perhaps, but it also doesn't feel good to have a 300+ PPM vehicle blown off the table in a single round of shooting from six eradicators that cost less than the vehicle in question. One would think gw could find a balance between the two. I'm not sure we should be complaining about an army that's actually durable with how killy most things in 40k currently are.


Hard to say, there's problems with how high output is, likewise there are problems with how fiddly implementation can be on defensive stats. Saying all that I'm not sure how to manage it without stripping out reroll auras or radically reinventing how they handle or define a defensive army.

Edit:
Quick thoughts to replace DR:
higher T or more W rather than damage avoidance mechanics
cloud of flies -1 to hit or maybe reduce targeting units range on their weapons
a fat damage reduction of 1 across the board to a minimum of 1
AP reduction

All things that require less rolling and make them hard to kill in some way

Additional wounds could help, but we allready have people having fits about 2W and 3W marines. Higher toughness runs into the problem of the current wounding table: make Plague Marines T6 and they're tougher against S5 and 6, but the same against everything lower or higher until you hit S10 or drop to S3 . Minuses to hit run into the problem with the -1 cap gw implemented, and limiting range wouldn't do much with the smaller boards and the ranges on most weapons, and nothing in melee. Damage and AP reduction would just mean you spam 1D low AP weapons against them, same as 1W terminators in older editions.

Like you said: it's "fiddly".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galas wrote:
People hate when stuff they attack doesnt die, thats why everything has to die instantly.

The only exceptions are characters. People hate for their cool characters to die so they need to be inmortal. And kill imperial knights in a single meele round.

I like for stuff to be resilient. The problem of rolling 200 dice to remove 2 wounds of a DG unit is actually having to roll 200 dice on the first place.

Eh, I could care if you kill my characters. They're just there to either pay the HQ tax or provide some psychic shenanigans. It's when my tanks and dreads start getting blasted off the board before they can do anything that I get cranky.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/17 17:36:29


 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Did Daemons of Nurgle really need a nerf?
I feel like they were hardly over powered.
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

As I said, I like stuff to be resilient. In my ideal game, most stuff would die in turn 3-4 with turn 5 (6 if we have it) to mop up.

But people hate when SOMETHING should have died and it didn't! When most of the time, their mental math were just way off.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in is
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Iceland

There is one thing I'd like to consider. If this little snippet is actually from the upcoming book it would indicate that Nurgle Daemons might play a role in the next Death Guard book. Personally I'd hope for a better implementation than the last. Not a fan of the multi-book/detachment shenanigan that followed the old DG book.

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 Galas wrote:
As I said, I like stuff to be resilient. In my ideal game, most stuff would die in turn 3-4 with turn 5 (6 if we have it) to mop up.

But people hate when SOMETHING should have died and it didn't! When most of the time, their mental math were just way off.



Same reason people hated Alaitoc and Iron Hands, etc..

Stuff‘s got to die, or the fans want it nerfed.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





Dudeface wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
Tyel wrote:
Wouldn't be shocked if DG lost the 5+++, because it would be easier to balance offense/defence on a 6+++. As people have said, 2 wound plague marines with a 5++ would need to be quite expensive and it might have ended up being silly. (Can a 25 point unit really just have a boltgun for instance? Probably not.)


It's a good point, and with the removal of the 3++ Storm Shield it does feel like they are trying to reign in any weird mechanisms that have a negative effect on game enjoyment. I just hope that Death Guard get something nice in return, but we won't see until the end of the month/beginning og December.


TIL "any rule that might result in a thing I am targeting not immediately dying" = "weird mechanism that have a negative effect on game enjoyment."

Theres no reason why W2 plague marines with 5++ would be unbalanceable. DG termies are currently W2 models with 2+/5++/5+FNP. If they had to cost 24ppm and be extremely defensively oriented vs their offense, then...idk...great? Good? I'm glad there is a defensive army in 40k?


The way DG is implemented is unfun to play against a lot of the time. Roll an armys worth of shots and ping off a couple of wounds through 4-5 rounds of rolling dice, it's a massive time sink.

10 intercessors fire twice, reroll 1's to hit, wound rolls, reroll 1's to wound, saves, DR, DR rerolls (possibly) aaaaand you do 2-3 wounds for all that dice rolling.


Good. Fantastic. Give me more factions in 40k that you can actually build for durability. feth your intercessors - sorry they're not hyperefficient killing T5 heavy infantry as well as mowing down hordes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I put FRFSRF on two guard squads and I rolled 80 shots and only did 2w it was so demoralizing GW nerf it why didnt it diiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiie

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/17 18:05:02


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




the_scotsman wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
Tyel wrote:
Wouldn't be shocked if DG lost the 5+++, because it would be easier to balance offense/defence on a 6+++. As people have said, 2 wound plague marines with a 5++ would need to be quite expensive and it might have ended up being silly. (Can a 25 point unit really just have a boltgun for instance? Probably not.)


It's a good point, and with the removal of the 3++ Storm Shield it does feel like they are trying to reign in any weird mechanisms that have a negative effect on game enjoyment. I just hope that Death Guard get something nice in return, but we won't see until the end of the month/beginning og December.


TIL "any rule that might result in a thing I am targeting not immediately dying" = "weird mechanism that have a negative effect on game enjoyment."

Theres no reason why W2 plague marines with 5++ would be unbalanceable. DG termies are currently W2 models with 2+/5++/5+FNP. If they had to cost 24ppm and be extremely defensively oriented vs their offense, then...idk...great? Good? I'm glad there is a defensive army in 40k?


The way DG is implemented is unfun to play against a lot of the time. Roll an armys worth of shots and ping off a couple of wounds through 4-5 rounds of rolling dice, it's a massive time sink.

10 intercessors fire twice, reroll 1's to hit, wound rolls, reroll 1's to wound, saves, DR, DR rerolls (possibly) aaaaand you do 2-3 wounds for all that dice rolling.


Good. Fantastic. Give me more factions in 40k that you can actually build for durability. feth your intercessors - sorry they're not hyperefficient killing T5 heavy infantry as well as mowing down hordes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I put FRFSRF on two guard squads and I rolled 80 shots and only did 2w it was so demoralizing GW nerf it why didnt it diiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiie


Way to miss the point completely, I'm saying as a defensive measure it adds to the frustration and endless dice rolling. I dont want then to be less durable, I want to have to jump through less hoops.

While you want to be snarky, use that time playing the violin to see why it requires you to roll 138ish dice to kill 2 guys. Surely you can manage it with fewer dice rolls via modifiers?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/17 18:21:20


 
   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Dudeface wrote:
Spoiler:
the_scotsman wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
Tyel wrote:
Wouldn't be shocked if DG lost the 5+++, because it would be easier to balance offense/defence on a 6+++. As people have said, 2 wound plague marines with a 5++ would need to be quite expensive and it might have ended up being silly. (Can a 25 point unit really just have a boltgun for instance? Probably not.)


It's a good point, and with the removal of the 3++ Storm Shield it does feel like they are trying to reign in any weird mechanisms that have a negative effect on game enjoyment. I just hope that Death Guard get something nice in return, but we won't see until the end of the month/beginning og December.


TIL "any rule that might result in a thing I am targeting not immediately dying" = "weird mechanism that have a negative effect on game enjoyment."

Theres no reason why W2 plague marines with 5++ would be unbalanceable. DG termies are currently W2 models with 2+/5++/5+FNP. If they had to cost 24ppm and be extremely defensively oriented vs their offense, then...idk...great? Good? I'm glad there is a defensive army in 40k?


The way DG is implemented is unfun to play against a lot of the time. Roll an armys worth of shots and ping off a couple of wounds through 4-5 rounds of rolling dice, it's a massive time sink.

10 intercessors fire twice, reroll 1's to hit, wound rolls, reroll 1's to wound, saves, DR, DR rerolls (possibly) aaaaand you do 2-3 wounds for all that dice rolling.


Good. Fantastic. Give me more factions in 40k that you can actually build for durability. feth your intercessors - sorry they're not hyperefficient killing T5 heavy infantry as well as mowing down hordes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I put FRFSRF on two guard squads and I rolled 80 shots and only did 2w it was so demoralizing GW nerf it why didnt it diiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiie


Way to miss the point completely, I'm saying as a defensive measure it adds to the frustration and endless dice rolling. I dont want then to be less durable, I want to have to jump through less hoops.

While you want to be snarky, use that time playing the violin to see why it requires you to roll 138ish dice to kill 2 guys. Surely you can manage it with fewer dice rolls via modifiers?

A blanket -1 to wound could do just that. Quick math shows that your double firing intercessors would kill the same number of 1W Plague Marines with that as with DR, same for the damage that a PBC would take from 6 eradicators. I'll need to do more comparisons. I didn't do it with rerolls BTW.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





Best way to reduce that dice rolling is just to make Intercessors (and everything, frankly) just shoot and punch less.




"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





except that any durable unit will, by definition take "A lot of killing" which means yes a lot of dice rolling if you're trying to kill it wth bolters.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




the_scotsman wrote:
Best way to reduce that dice rolling is just to make Intercessors (and everything, frankly) just shoot and punch less.


Don't disagree, but durability doesn't equate extra dice rolls. Custodes are a good example of this, durable without spamming extra rolls.

I agree less punching and shooting would be nice but them said durable units need points hikes to keep in line.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/17 19:14:18


 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







 Duskweaver wrote:
 Brutus_Apex wrote:
It's possible that DG get +1 to their Disgustingly Resilient roll if they are battlforged.

Getting +1 to something that only works on a natural 6 doesn't actually do anything.


This is a good point, but it could be worded to say that DR succeeds on a natural 5 or 6 instead of just a natural 6.

2021 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My [url=https://pileofpotential.com/dysartes]Pile of Potential[/url - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Same reason people hated Alaitoc and Iron Hands, etc..

Stuff‘s got to die, or the fans want it nerfed.


I disagree. people hate it when they face an opponent who's army has ridiculous resiliency without giving up an appropriate amount of offense. That is by definition imbalanced.
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




Justyn wrote:
Same reason people hated Alaitoc and Iron Hands, etc..

Stuff‘s got to die, or the fans want it nerfed.


I disagree. people hate it when they face an opponent who's army has ridiculous resiliency without giving up an appropriate amount of offense. That is by definition imbalanced.


Sums it up, the_scotsman gave an example earlier of 135 points of guard doing 2 wounds (36 points) to plague marines, currently 144 points of plague marines do 25 points worth to a guardsmen squad. they're paying for that durability. It seems like they lose out here but that's ignoring the fact the plague marines rapid fire from further out etc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/17 21:40:13


 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Justyn wrote:
Same reason people hated Alaitoc and Iron Hands, etc..

Stuff‘s got to die, or the fans want it nerfed.


I disagree. people hate it when they face an opponent who's army has ridiculous resiliency without giving up an appropriate amount of offense. That is by definition imbalanced.


not if they pay approperate points for it.


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Hmmm.

Its the balancing that's difficult.
In theory you can make DG super tough - so rather than killing 30%+ of them in a turn, you can only kill 15%. But this is *balanced* because they will in turn expect to only kill say 15% of your army rather than 30%.

But in practice I'm not sure that's happened. In 8th they were either so pillowfisted that the fact they were tough didn't matter - you just slugged your whole army into them and wiped them in say 4 turns rather than 2 - prioritising the bits that mattered. Or for brief moments the toughness was pushed beyond the point people could reliably clear, so they won ITC missions by denying kill something/kill more.

With 9th's objective focus, there could be fairly obvious issues of "I go first, I stick a bunch of Plague Marines on objectives. Come at me, I'm getting 15 points on the primary if you don't".

I don't see how you marry up 2 wounds T5 3+/5+++ and potentially more defensive synergies, with "a boltgun". I guess you can say "screw the boltguns, I'm in it for the special weapons - like tactical marines" - but it still seems a gap. Its arguably less of an issue on vehicles because - to a degree - being bespoke they can be altered to match. (I.E. you could give plagueburst crawlers more shots if you wanted to tune up its output.)

Maybe there is some middle ground in the low 20s - but its not immediately clear to me.
   
Made in fi
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Vihti, Finland

Well I have always felt that DG would need some heavier firepower options with its infantry but that was more to do with special rules.

   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Dysartes wrote:
 Duskweaver wrote:
 Brutus_Apex wrote:
It's possible that DG get +1 to their Disgustingly Resilient roll if they are battlforged.

Getting +1 to something that only works on a natural 6 doesn't actually do anything.


This is a good point, but it could be worded to say that DR succeeds on a natural 5 or 6 instead of just a natural 6.


I hope you guys are right on this. If you are, it would be a nice way to finally get DG players to use pox walkers and plague marines instead of daemon troops.

A 6+ DR would just combine the worst of both worlds: lots of dice rolling and a lot less durability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote:
With 9th's objective focus, there could be fairly obvious issues of "I go first, I stick a bunch of Plague Marines on objectives. Come at me, I'm getting 15 points on the primary if you don't".

How do you get troops moving 5" and with no option to deep strike onto objectives though? A rhino is the best DG currently can do.

I don't see how you marry up 2 wounds T5 3+/5+++ and potentially more defensive synergies, with "a boltgun". I guess you can say "screw the boltguns, I'm in it for the special weapons - like tactical marines" - but it still seems a gap. Its arguably less of an issue on vehicles because - to a degree - being bespoke they can be altered to match. (I.E. you could give plagueburst crawlers more shots if you wanted to tune up its output.)

Plague marines get up to 3 plasma guns/blight launchers per unit and can have a whole slew of deadly melee weapons, including two flails. There also is a number of small offensive buffs you can stack on them for 1 CP each, like doubling their shots, turning them into plague bolters, etc.
The do have the grenade combo, but I fully expect that to go away. Nuking a fully buffed Magnus or knight tyrant with a 150 points unit, a 55 points character and 3 cp is not ok at all.

In the beginning of 8th DG could grind down opponents because their units had lower damage, but usually stayed alive much longer than other units, so they dealt their damage for 3-4 turns rather than 1-2 turns like most other armies do. I would really like to return to that dynamic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/17 22:36:31


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Made in gb
Executing Exarch






Maybe now I will actually be able to kill a PBC in one round of shooting . Rather then ignore them for the game.

Sinking an entire armies worth of shooting into a PBC and it not dying is a bit silly...

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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Jidmah wrote:
Tyel wrote:
With 9th's objective focus, there could be fairly obvious issues of "I go first, I stick a bunch of Plague Marines on objectives. Come at me, I'm getting 15 points on the primary if you don't".

How do you get troops moving 5" and with no option to deep strike onto objectives though? A rhino is the best DG currently can do.


You play DG so probably know better than me - but depending on the scenario/terrain a high advance roll could get a guy in 3" range of mid-board objectives 12" from your deployment zone if you were deployed directly in front of it. If someone's done the similar thing to you it would be a 9-10" charge, so unlikely but not impossible. I accept it may not be possible sometimes.

Rhinos are therefore more reliable - but... kind of fragile and not that cheap. And rolling a few ones on expensive guys if it does die quickly adds up.

The terminators can deep strike can't they? 3 wounds with a 4++5+++, depending on points, would seem quite solid, even if they are glacially slow which brings its own issues.

I agree on the special weapons - although there's still a question of how expensive you should get.
   
Made in nl
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation





Lol at "I have to roll so much for so little result" marine players. Now you know how it feels to run Ork boyz into your infantry. Heaven's forbid there is an army that can actually withstand the ridiculous amount of damage a marine list puts out.
Having said that, I've seen these rumors/images pop up everywhere last few days and it annoys me to no end. We are getting a reveal this Saturday, the codex itself presumably 2 or 3 weeks later. Just hold your horses until then. I agree with Jidmah, a 6+ FNP adds absolutely nothing, we keep the tedious rolling but now the DG player gets to be salty too because it hardly does anything.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Tyel wrote:
You play DG so probably know better than me - but depending on the scenario/terrain a high advance roll could get a guy in 3" range of mid-board objectives 12" from your deployment zone if you were deployed directly in front of it. If someone's done the similar thing to you it would be a 9-10" charge, so unlikely but not impossible. I accept it may not be possible sometimes.

Since I play pure DG (so no nurglings like competitive players), I actually tried that a couple of times, and in theory a Noxious Blightbringer (aka bell guy) can help with those advances.
The issue is, that a terrain obstacle or a bad roll leaves your rather expensive plague marines stranded in an exposed position where they are just gunned down. Some times you just get one or two models within that 3" range, so an enemy can still contest the objective rather easily.
And, of course, there always is the issue of simply not winning the roll-off.

The terminators can deep strike can't they? 3 wounds with a 4++5+++, depending on points, would seem quite solid, even if they are glacially slow which brings its own issues.

They already fulfill that role though, and they just do it for more points. They also don't have objective secured and are 4", half advance rolls.
In general death guards high durability is rather nicely counter-balanced by slow movement and low damage output, playing against them just doesn't feel that way because so far players could avoid these drawbacks by souping daemons and/or CSM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Argive wrote:
Maybe now I will actually be able to kill a PBC in one round of shooting . Rather then ignore them for the game.

Sinking an entire armies worth of shooting into a PBC and it not dying is a bit silly...


And yet, somehow the significant more durable Mortarion manages to implode on turn one every game.

But can't have a single tank with low damage output not fold like wet paper, can we?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/18 06:52:27


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honestly we dunno the full story here, I mean if GW nerfs disgustingly resiliant but makes basic plague mariens 3 Wounds that's definatly a big increase. just for example.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/18 06:59:10


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BrianDavion wrote:
honestly we dunno the full story here, I mean if GW nerfs disgustingly resiliant but makes basic plague mariens 3 Wounds that's definatly a big increase. just for example.


I agree, they managed to turn around issues like the KFF mek, Thrakka's Waaagh!, the biker warboss, and the DG PA actually seemed like they knew what they were doing.

There also is the rumor of DR going to -1 to wound floating around, so let's wait and see.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/18 07:03:16


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




 Jidmah wrote:
Spoiler:
Tyel wrote:
You play DG so probably know better than me - but depending on the scenario/terrain a high advance roll could get a guy in 3" range of mid-board objectives 12" from your deployment zone if you were deployed directly in front of it. If someone's done the similar thing to you it would be a 9-10" charge, so unlikely but not impossible. I accept it may not be possible sometimes.

Since I play pure DG (so no nurglings like competitive players), I actually tried that a couple of times, and in theory a Noxious Blightbringer (aka bell guy) can help with those advances.
The issue is, that a terrain obstacle or a bad roll leaves your rather expensive plague marines stranded in an exposed position where they are just gunned down. Some times you just get one or two models within that 3" range, so an enemy can still contest the objective rather easily.
And, of course, there always is the issue of simply not winning the roll-off.

The terminators can deep strike can't they? 3 wounds with a 4++5+++, depending on points, would seem quite solid, even if they are glacially slow which brings its own issues.

They already fulfill that role though, and they just do it for more points. They also don't have objective secured and are 4", half advance rolls.
In general death guards high durability is rather nicely counter-balanced by slow movement and low damage output, playing against them just doesn't feel that way because so far players could avoid these drawbacks by souping daemons and/or CSM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Argive wrote:
Maybe now I will actually be able to kill a PBC in one round of shooting . Rather then ignore them for the game.

Sinking an entire armies worth of shooting into a PBC and it not dying is a bit silly...


And yet, somehow the significant more durable Mortarion manages to implode on turn one every game.

But can't have a single tank with low damage output not fold like wet paper, can we?


That ineffective 190 point vehicle only takes 800 points of quad las predator fire to die, it does seem a little disproportionate.
   
Made in de
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Why is it that people always take units that literally no one considers to be even halfway decent as a point of reference?

That's also not correct, a las predator is 170 and does 3 damage on average to a PBC. So 680 points of a rather inefficient anti-tank unit suffice to kill it.
A single unit of 6 eradicators with zero support blows them mile high in a single shooting phase just fine.

It also takes 480 points of entropy cannon PBC to kill a predator, or 680 points of the much more popular spitter load-out, assuming none of the PBC have lost more than 6 wounds, 640/850 points if even a single one did.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/18 08:27:16


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
 
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