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so, i admit that i've played very little of the newest version of 40K - i was out of the hobby for a while, and i'm still getting used to the idiosyncrasies of the latest edition rules. i'm in the process of building up my new Dark Eldar army, because those models are just so awesome. and i love to do conversions, so the units not yet represented with products in the range offer me a lot of room to make fun, unique conversions of my own.

that said, i'm not sure i see what the appeal of the Venom is. it's almost the same cost as the Raider, but with smaller capacity. is there a really, really compelling reason to have one in your army?

i ask this because i am trying to decide to chop up a Raider and some Eldar bitz to make a Venom, or if i should leave the Raider intact and use it. various opinions, advice, rants, etc. heartily welcomed! thanks Dakka!

-C6

Well, it is slightly cheaper (especially when factoring in the built in flickerfield) and comes with a vehicle mounted Splinter Cannon, which is 6 Poisoned Shots at 36" range. For 10 more points, you double it up. Both can be fired after moving 12", which gives you 48" effective range with 12 poisoned shots. What you end up with, is a very potent anti-infantry vehicle, to counterbalance the very potent anti-vehicle vehicle that is the raider. It gives you variety.

Btw, I think a 5 man warrior squad with a blaster flying in a venom with double splinter cannons makes for a really cheap, all around skimmer. It's fast, scores and can deal with both armor and infantry.

It's the antiinfantry firepower. For the same price as a Raider you put out 12 poisoned shots at 36" range while still moving 12".

Most lists you see online seem to spam Raiders or Venoms, but I think a competitive list really should have both. You need both the Dark Lances and the Splinter Cannons.

perhaps if i had read the entries carefully enough i'd have noticed the anti-tank/anti-infantry angle. thanks for explaining that to me!

so what would be a good recommended unit/loadout to run in general in a Venom? any suggestions that have worked for others?

I agree with Mannahnin. I don't like the strategy behind spamming only one of the transport options. A solid list will have both so that you have mobile threats to all targets. I have been running only a single venom in my DE, but every game I see long fangs or even regular/BA dev squads makes me want more. Of course, I have to get around to building more of them, but thems the breaks!

Additionally, Venoms are smaller models than Raiders which has its advantages when you want to go to town with Deep Strike due to reduced footprint/chance of mishap. There's a reason Sliscus has a poison theme, and the ability to let vehicles (like Venoms) Deep Strike...

everyone is loving MSU DE because it is the fotm.

4x trueborn with 4x blasters in the 2x splinter cannon venom is a top choice.

For troops simply 5 warriors with a single blaster and 2x splinter cannon venom has worked for some. I am eager to try these out once I get 2 more venoms made.

MSU has been a de-facto part of 40k for...ever really. We had a brief love affair with deathstars but MSU will always reign in the hearts of many a competitive 40k gamer.

MagicJuggler wrote:MSU has been a de-facto part of 40k for...ever really. We had a brief love affair with deathstars but MSU will always reign in the hearts of many a competitive 40k gamer.

Yeah MSU has and always will be around in some form. Maybe not the most competitive forces around there will use it at all times, but its certainly a worthy strat for alot of armies, plus its fun to play, having so many units to toy around with.

5 warriors with blaster and syberite blast pistol. Cheap scoring unit with infantry and tank killing power.

4 incubi with PGL archon.
5 incubi

4 wracks escorting a WWP character.

Raider+Flickerfield is 70 points, which is a fairly standard thing for most people. A Venom is only 55 to get the built-in Flickerfield, add in the obligatory upgrade to have twin Splinter Cannons and we are looking at a vehicle that is five points cheaper, gives out 12 poisoned shots at 48" instead of 1 Dark Lance shot at 48", and carries half as many units.

Best loadout imho is

4 Trueborn
4 Blasters
Venom, Splinter Cannon

Total cost is 173 points. Throw it in a list with Duke Sliscus and deepstrike that puppy in and you can realize just how deadly that can be.

catharsix wrote:so, i admit that i've played very little of the newest version of 40K - i was out of the hobby for a while, and i'm still getting used to the idiosyncrasies of the latest edition rules. i'm in the process of building up my new Dark Eldar army, because those models are just so awesome. and i love to do conversions, so the units not yet represented with products in the range offer me a lot of room to make fun, unique conversions of my own.

that said, i'm not sure i see what the appeal of the Venom is. it's almost the same cost as the Raider, but with smaller capacity. is there a really, really compelling reason to have one in your army?

i ask this because i am trying to decide to chop up a Raider and some Eldar bitz to make a Venom, or if i should leave the Raider intact and use it. various opinions, advice, rants, etc. heartily welcomed! thanks Dakka!

-C6

Venom - Take it if you need anti-Horde

Raider - Take it if you need anti-MECH

This is really the same decision you make for virtually everything in the game.

I love when DE go MSU spam style. Its great target practice!

MSU works for DE because you only need five for the blaster. For 125 you can get a five man squad in a venom that can put out 12 poison shots from the venom another 4 to 8 from the guys inside and can hurt tanks. Or i can buy another five guys and a SC for 55 points and a raider pushing me to have a much more expansive troop choice with about the same amount of fire power.

Or i can buy another five guys and a SC for 55 points and a raider pushing me to have a much more expansive troop choice with about the same amount of fire power.

No can do, remember that you need to have 10 men in the squad for a heavy weapon.

Personally I think the venom works for 2 things really. Transporting small units of trueborn or incubi, aswell as go with the "mini-bearer bus", with A venom and a min sized unit of wracks.
Warriors can work, but personally I find them very flimsy. (Also, "venom-spam" is a wee bit boring. )

My opinion of Deepstrike with the Duke fell quite a bit when I discovered that Deepstriking vehicles count as moving at Cruising speed and therefore keeping the embarked unit from being able to fire. I still see the potential of it to some degree...like putting them behind cover or to contest objectives...but then you are looking at a turn 3 MINIMUM before the unit is really effective unless you disembark into cover. Not really my cup of tea. I ll just take Scourges instead, thanx.

And to be on topic, the Venom is just plain monstrous for the points. If you want complete overkill on Anti-troop, load up a 5 man squad of Trueborn, 2 with Splinter Cannons, and the rest with whatever you fancy (Carbines/Blasters/etc.). That is another 8 shots, albeit at 42" instead of 48" (oh darn....)

just mathhammer the 2 SC a bit
against GeQ 12 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 4 wounds
against MeQ 12 * 2/3 * 1/2 *1/3 = 1.33 wounds
at 36" and it can zip around and annoy people.

A preditor with heavy bolter sponsons and autocannon in the turret does slightly better against GeQ, about the same against MeQ but cant move. It also cant rape MC although it is survivable and can down cardboard boxes like raiders and venoms. But here is the big thing, the Venom is cheaper than the preditor, can transport 5 models, and doesnt take any HS slots.

With the pretty much cookie-cutter space wolf lists out there that all feature three squads of 6 longfangs....venoms go a long way towards mitigating enemy anti-tank ability.

They don't do as well against Chimera spam since all those lances are missing, but....I've written extensively elsewhere about rock/paper/scissor, and won't do it all again here.

Dashofpepper wrote:With the pretty much cookie-cutter space wolf lists out there that all feature three squads of 6 longfangs....venoms go a long way towards mitigating enemy anti-tank ability.

They don't do as well against Chimera spam since all those lances are missing, but....I've written extensively elsewhere about rock/paper/scissor, and won't do it all again here.

Course in tournament though, if you wind up going up against ANOTHER DE that's NOT buying into venoms and is going total mech/Raider...you're going to be sucking hind teat.

Bringing too many Venoms can really hurt your Alpha Strike against Mech lists.

I agree with Deadshane. If you take too many Venoms you weaken your army overall. Having anti-infantry firepower is critical, but I wouldn't go overboard with them. I usually run only one or two Venoms in my lists..and that seems to be plenty. I'd rather use units like Hellions to support my anti-infantry base along with a few Venoms. They can at least use cover better and have the ability to shoot and assault. If you are taking the Baron they are also a troops choice.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:With the pretty much cookie-cutter space wolf lists out there that all feature three squads of 6 longfangs....venoms go a long way towards mitigating enemy anti-tank ability.

They don't do as well against Chimera spam since all those lances are missing, but....I've written extensively elsewhere about rock/paper/scissor, and won't do it all again here.

Course in tournament though, if you wind up going up against ANOTHER DE that's NOT buying into venoms and is going total mech/Raider...you're going to be sucking hind teat.

Bringing too many Venoms can really hurt your Alpha Strike against Mech lists.

Vehicle MeQ GeQ MC(T6 3+)
Venom 1.33 4 1.33
Raider w Dist 1.33 1.66 .66
Pred w HBs 1.26 4.44 .74
Ravager w Dist 4 5 2

So a 65 point venom does almost the same job as a 110 point preditor with auto cannon and HB sponsons.
It is also nearly as good at taking out GeQ as a 105 point Ravager with Distitigrators.

I agree that a DE army needs lots of raiders. It needs tons of AT, but having a few Venoms around is certainly useful. Maybe 1 Venom for every 3 raiders. Maybe even 1:2 if you have a lot of AT elsewhere.

rryannn wrote:everyone is loving MSU DE because it is the fotm.

It is and I understand why. Unles you are having the raiders coming in late game from resreve then you need a LOTT of it. The DE MSU also gives you a lott of darklight and poison weaponds. Perfect for tanks and MC's. Unfortunatly the MSU spam does not tafe advantage of the power from pain rule very mutch. I have 3 raiders and 2 ravagers and they do didly squatt because I am ALWAYS against a SM gunnline. I am switching to footsoldiers with WWP. 20 warriors with haemoncaly and 6 grotesuques seems like funn. :-)

Deadshane1 wrote:[
Course in tournament though, if you wind up going up against ANOTHER DE that's NOT buying into venoms and is going total mech/Raider...you're going to be sucking hind teat.

Bringing too many Venoms can really hurt your Alpha Strike against Mech lists.

Eh....

If you're running 9 raiders, 3 ravagers, 3 units of trueborn and....whatever you like in the troop slots (6 of those raiders, you've got about 27-29 lance weapons. If those troop slots have warrior units in them, you've got 33-35 lance weapons The reason I go with Venoms is because even that much anti-tank firepower doesn't seem to cut it against Mech IG. Such a specialized list doesn't give any anti-infantry firepower, no assault abilities, and you're still stacked as best as you can against the predominant mech list - I just feel that it suffers too much when you run into other things. Like Orks. Or Tyranids. Or mix and matched IG that isn't all mechanized. Autocannon teams on foot.

I won't pretend that I've got Dark Eldar mastered - my friends and advisors believe I should change what I'm running significantly, but I'm tied to the idea of simplicity and its difficult to get rid of.