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As I start to put together my Dark Eldar army (insert shameless plug here )

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/339885.page#2329832

I started to think about what gear to give the squad leaders for my Warriors and decided to do some mathhammer.

A basic CCW is free, with a Venom Blade costing 5, Power Weapon 10 and Agoniser 20, but is an agoniser really twice as effective as a PW - and is that really twice as effective as a Venom Blade?

Against the most common opponent stat lines, the number of unsaved wounds per 36 hits is as follows:

____________CCW__Venom__PW__Agoniser
T3; 5+_______12_____20____18____18
T3; 4+________9_____15____18____18
T4; 3+________4_____10____12____18
T4; 2+/5++____2______5_____8____16
T4; 2+/3++____2______5_____4_____8
T5; 3+________2_____10_____6____18

What is interesting here is that against Guard/Eldar the cheap Venom Blade is the most effective weapon overall, while aginst TH/SS termies and Plague Marines its more effective than a Power Weapon. Against Tau, MEQs and other termies the PW edges the Venom, but crucially the narrowest margin is against MEQs.

The Power Weapon is the clear loser here and should probably not be taken unless your regular opponent likes Deathwing or its variants and you can't afford Agonisers, which leaves a straight fight between the Venom Blade and the Agoniser. For me price now comes to the fore and at only 5 points the Venom Blade is a snip for the increase in damage potential it gives to your squad leader.

Now don't get me wrong, Agonisers have their place (and its almost certainly going to be my Archon's hand ) for CC troops with higher numbers of attacks, but for basic Warrior Squads, the Venom seems to be the best bang for its buck.


Having said all that, I now need dakka to tell me why I'm wrong before I glue the arms on my squad leaders...

Why are you putting melee upgrades on Kabalites? They're horrible in melee, especially at their price. The only reason to even take the sybarite is for the +1 to Ld.

Also blast pistol. Yeah I agree, any of these weapons are terrible in a warrior squad anyways. Its the concept that is bad.

Would you give 10 guardsman a melee upgrade? No? what about guardsman that are expensive and cost 9 ppm?

What about guardsman that are expensive, cost 9 ppm, and don't have grenades even though you pay for init 5?

The big thing about agonizers is the ability to rip monsters apart. But seriously, that's a job for wyche squads.

I use Agonizers on Wyches, normally they would have to wound on a 5+, but now with the Agonizer on your Hexatrix, you can get a good 3 PW wounds on the charge, then the rest of your wyches kick in.

On Warriors, as others said, it is a no-no for upgrading CCW.

The only reason why I take sybarites is for a blast pistol, the LD boost isn't bad either, but honestly LD8 is good enough for a squad of fragile guys who aren't going to survive much, and aren't meant for melee (so don't get penalties to LD checks).

The agonizer is actually bad math pretty much wherever you take it. Not a bad weapon, it just won't do as much as should for its points. Even a 5+ attack model (like syren, succubus, or archon) won't kill altogether that much.

Archon weapons, Agonizer: 6 attacks on charge, 4 hits against most things, 2 wounds, none saved.
Venom blade: 6 attacks on charge, 4 hits, 3.33 wounds, saves allowed, slightly more than 1 dead Meq (1.09), slightly more than 2 dead Geqs.
Power sword: 6 attacks, 4 hits, 1.32 wounds against Meqs, 2 wounds against Geqs.

So Against Meqs, the agonizer is better, almost twice and good as a venom blade, and 2/3 better than a power weapon. But against Geq (T3 5+ save) the venom blade is actually better. Against higher toughness PW falls off even more (and shouldn't be considered). Since toughness doesn't matter for agonizer and venom blade, it really comes down to what kind of save the opponent has. If it is a 4+ and lower, the agonizer does better, if it is 5+ the blade does better. Invull save models like daemons can effect this (making VB better) but termies the agonizer still does better.

notabot187 wrote:
Venom blade: 6 attacks on charge, 4 hits, 3.33 wounds, saves allowed, slightly more than 1 dead Meq (1.09), slightly more than 2 dead Geqs.
Power sword: 6 attacks, 4 hits, 1.32 wounds against Meqs, 2 wounds against Geqs.

Remember, the venom blade rerolls failed to wound rolls against T3 creatures, so it's even better against GEQs. Pretty much every hit is a wound.

If you have a squad moving forward that might get into melee, a venom blade is a great investment and I stick it on all my wych squads. For regular warriors, if they are sitting back and shooting you probably shouldn't buy it. If it's moving forward though, and you're buying the sybarite for the leadership boost/blast pistol, 5 points for the venom blade isn't so bad. It'll let you more easily wipe out GEQ squads that happen to be around.

Grimaldi wrote:

notabot187 wrote:
Venom blade: 6 attacks on charge, 4 hits, 3.33 wounds, saves allowed, slightly more than 1 dead Meq (1.09), slightly more than 2 dead Geqs.
Power sword: 6 attacks, 4 hits, 1.32 wounds against Meqs, 2 wounds against Geqs.

Remember, the venom blade rerolls failed to wound rolls against T3 creatures, so it's even better against GEQs. Pretty much every hit is a wound.

If you have a squad moving forward that might get into melee, a venom blade is a great investment and I stick it on all my wych squads. For regular warriors, if they are sitting back and shooting you probably shouldn't buy it. If it's moving forward though, and you're buying the sybarite for the leadership boost/blast pistol, 5 points for the venom blade isn't so bad. It'll let you more easily wipe out GEQ squads that happen to be around.

Ah, ty for reminding me of that. Also if you get FC the venom blade improves against T4 too.

People can use the Agoniser all they want, but for my money, the Venom Blade is clearly the way to go. It's not only cheaper, but better in more cases. There's no job for which I need an Agoniser that I don't have tools elsewhere (such as the 20+ darklight weapons and army-wide poison) to deal with just as effectively.

If I'm going to make a deathgod Archon, I'd rather have a Huskblade to scare the crap out of 2-wound units, such as nobs, Tyranid Warriors, Thunderwolf Cavalry, etc., but that would have to be a very special case in a very different build than what I typically run.

I like the agonizer because it ignores armor. Maybe I am just lucky with my dice, but my syren and hekatrix usually drop 2-3 marines every time they attack.

Brother-Thunder wrote:I like the agonizer because it ignores armor. Maybe I am just lucky with my dice, but my syren and hekatrix usually drop 2-3 marines every time they attack.

That is above average. 4 attacks with a hekatrix, 2 hits, 1 dead marine. Syrens have 5 on charge, but 2.5 hits, 1.25 dead marines. If they had VB it would be.55 dead and .69 dead. There is honestly a good arguement for skipping DE sarges entirely if CC is what you have in mind.

The argument in favor of agonizers and VBs is the chance that you can do better than average is pretty decent. Esp with agonizers which have a higher chance of getting really lucky.

Personally luck doesn't favor me especially well, so I rely more on volume of attacks, which neither upgrade really provides. (yet I'm against razorflails and gauntlets...)

I usually use my wyches to kill GEQ squads or finish off weakened, tougher squads like MEQs. The venom blade is great against those units, and with the reduced price it's the way to go most of the time.

notabot187 wrote:

Brother-Thunder wrote:I like the agonizer because it ignores armor. Maybe I am just lucky with my dice, but my syren and hekatrix usually drop 2-3 marines every time they attack.

That is above average. 4 attacks with a hekatrix, 2 hits, 1 dead marine. Syrens have 5 on charge, but 2.5 hits, 1.25 dead marines. If they had VB it would be.55 dead and .69 dead. There is honestly a good arguement for skipping DE sarges entirely if CC is what you have in mind.

The argument in favor of agonizers and VBs is the chance that you can do better than average is pretty decent. Esp with agonizers which have a higher chance of getting really lucky.

Personally luck doesn't favor me especially well, so I rely more on volume of attacks, which neither upgrade really provides. (yet I'm against razorflails and gauntlets...)

so, you be a shardnet fan? I personally love razorflails, average 7 wounds from them with 12 attacks on the charge at S3, more if I got more attacks or better strength.

I also purposly non-optimize my army in the cases of my marines and DE, because I run fluffy stuff and my syren and klavex have names.

Yeah, I'm for nets, it makes them better tarpits.

I run more upgrades than I should even though I know its bad math. I make 1750 WYSIWYG with only one model not used right now T-T So I have first hand knowledge about how meh some of them are for their points.

only upgrade I regret so far is the blast pistol on my syren. I figured that assaulting the contents inside a vehicle is a great idea if they can all od it themselves, then I remembered that T3 and 6 up save sucks when a vehicle explodes.

Grimaldi wrote:
Remember, the venom blade rerolls failed to wound rolls against T3 creatures, so it's even better against GEQs. Pretty much every hit is a wound.

I thought poisoned weapons got the re-roll only if you would normally wound on their poisoned number. Or have I had it wrong? Do they re-roll when S>=T?

I thought poisoned weapons got the re-roll only if you would normally wound on their poisoned number. Or have I had it wrong? Do they re-roll when S>=T?

Yup, strength needs to be equal to or greater than enemy's toughness to re-roll.

Is this the new DE codex??

Yes, this is the new codex.

Seconding everyone else here - don't give warrior squads any leader at all, let alone a combat upgrade. They aren't combat troops, lots of things that charge them will take the squad out anyway, sybarite or not.

Hence why my Warriors sit in the back field with a dark lance. They will not get into combat most of the time, and naything that dares deepstrike or outflank near them is getting a buttload of dakka thrown their way.

I don't need melee in my warrior squads, you are already dead from their shooting!

They made the point when the PGL costs twice as much for warriors as it does for wyches. I started out with blasters and blast pistol & venom blade with a PGL on the Sybarite. By the time you cost that out though - that probably robs you of another raider and 10 man squad. I would rather have 9 rifles and a splinter cannon in a raider than all the supped up equipment.

I am building an option for a fluffy trueborn squad for a list without incubi or wyches so - with an archon - it is going to be set up for a counterattack unit. That one fluffy squad will get that old model.

I am currently paying for the sybarite to get the LD bonus but that is debatable with 5 squads that still is a hefty investment just to get Ld 9. I just don't want them to run, I want them to die in place.

DAaddict wrote:I am currently paying for the sybarite to get the LD bonus but that is debatable with 5 squads that still is a hefty investment just to get Ld 9. I just don't want them to run, I want them to die in place.

I was doing the same thing until I considered grisly trophies. Half the cost and better IMO when you field MSU of warriors, and potential to help other units as well.

I kinda feel I am stating the obvious but on an IC, Archon or Succubus you should have combat drugs!

And what happens if you get #4 reroll to wound?
Well the venom blade is about the same as it always was, but an Archon with an agonizer will kill an extra MEQ a turn.

Now if your army gets +1S the PW wins the most, then the VB and finally nothing for the Agonizer but does the VB gain that much? not really, rerolling a 2+ into a 2++ is not that great.

Where the re-roll to wound really shines is with a huskblade. Got that result just last night, and that's just evil. Really mitigates that strength 3. Combined with the swiftness of a raider, that equaled a dead Tyrand and a dead Tervigon right quick, and a strength 10 Archon just as quick.