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Hello all, my friend and I recently came into the hobby and were both thinking of starting new armies namely DE for me and Orks for him. I have dabbled in Space Wolves/ marine equivilents but in the end I didn't want to hop the band waggon on such a blatently strong and popular codex so I wanted to opt for something with a little more finesse than just point and shoot if you know what I mean. Enter DE: I know they are considered very strong but they also have many obvious weaknesses. Additonally I just love the models and the idea of a fast dynamic playstyle. My only problem is that I have heard there is a steep learning curve involved with this army and I was wondering if you could give me any pointers on starting out. Ditto for my friend who has practically no knowledge of the game and simply thought the orcs look dead 'ard and stompy. Any pointers you guys have on good builds/ tactics and places to start with these two forces are much appreciated. Thx in advance!

Greetings.

I play both Dark Eldar and Orks - those are my two armies.

In my signature, you can find battle reports linking you to national tournaments (Grand Tournaments) and such that I've attended, and written/photographed extensive battle reports on. If you read them, you can see what units I use, how I use them, how I play against a variety of armies; I've been incredibly successful with both armies.

Most (or all) of my Dark Eldar battle reports may be from the old codex, but I've been curb-stomping pretty much everyone in the new edition as well. I'd start by acquiring an HQ and two troops. Your friend should read my Ork batreps (and some of the comments and such from other ork players) - you need a bit more personalized advice.

I'd start out with the following purchases:

1. A box of Hellions. You can convert one into the Baron, use the others as beastmasters, or use them as hellions - its a win/win.
2. Vehicles: These are the absolute core of any Dark Eldar army - before you start buying raiders, formulate the kind of list you want to bring, which will direct you towards either running raiders or venoms. I'm personally a Venom kind of guy, but that's simply because they suit my needs. If you decide to go with Venoms, you'll either be looking to kitbash raiders or Eldar Vypers (both of which may be an intimidating prospect as you start into the hobby) - alternatively, you can wait - the Venom models should be coming out by June at the latest.
3. Ravagers: Get three of them. Triple Dark Lance ravagers are pretty much a mandatory component of any effective Dark Eldar list.
4. The Codex: If you don't have it yet, start with this.

Beyond that, it will depend on what kind of army you decide to play based on you reading the codex. You'll key in on wracks, or warriors, or wyches, and build the kind of army you want (and the transports you'll be taking with them) from there.

Orks are pretty easy to start with. Your buddy will need an idea what sort of horde he's doing so first things first - codex.
Next thing on the list is a warboss model. Which one he prefers is his choice. Next is most likely an ork battleforce as this will give him the core of the army (boyz), a transport (trukk), and some bikers for that speedy touch. I would would avise personally he plans out what kind of army he does; if he does anything like a Green Tide army then he won't need trukks and bikers but more boyz.

Thanks both for your quick responses. My friend doesn't have an account on here at the moment so I will just have to pass on my information second hand to him.

@Dashofpepper

Thank you for your advice and those extensive battle reports. I see you run an all mechanized wych force almost always lead by lelith and you seem quite good at beating face with it. (I quite like how your kabalites were flipping the bird...a very nice touch ) It would seem that there are 3 main ways to build an army: Kabal, Wych cult and haemonculi covens. Is it better to focus an army on one of these major themes or can they be successfully mixed and matched? I have a soft spot for the warrior models, but I also like the wych's, both for look and to add a little in the way of close combat support. Is it better to run MSU kabalites in venoms, or larger units in raiders? Should i give them dark lances or splinter cannons?

Juvieus Kaine wrote:Orks are pretty easy to start with. Your buddy will need an idea what sort of horde he's doing so first things first - codex.
Next thing on the list is a warboss model. Which one he prefers is his choice. Next is most likely an ork battleforce as this will give him the core of the army (boyz), a transport (trukk), and some bikers for that speedy touch. I would would avise personally he plans out what kind of army he does; if he does anything like a Green Tide army then he won't need trukks and bikers but more boyz.

Gonna have to disagree with pretty much all of this advice.

A warboss isn't necessarily a part of every list; I haven't used a stock warboss in almost two years. An Ork battleforce box isn't a good buy if the components aren't part of the list he's going to be running; warbikers are competitively useless for anything except conversions into nob bikers, and a trukk only belongs in certain speed freak lists.

His Ork friend needs to figure out what kind of list he wants to make, whether he wants a competitive or fun list, what kind of theme he wants to follow <insert 6 page Dash thread about different Ork themes that I don't have a bookmark to right now> and THEN figure out how to start acquiring those models....and his best bet is probably to look for something that has the core of it on e-bay, or on the trading forums here or elsewhere. Once he's got that sorted out, then he can start planning purchases based on what he has and needs to finish out his list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bjorn_Stormwolf02 wrote:Thanks both for your quick responses. My friend doesn't have an account on here at the moment so I will just have to pass on my information second hand to him.

@Dashofpepper

Thank you for your advice and those extensive battle reports. I see you run an all mechanized wych force almost always lead by lelith and you seem quite good at beating face with it. (I quite like how your kabalites were flipping the bird...a very nice touch ) It would seem that there are 3 main ways to build an army: Kabal, Wych cult and haemonculi covens. Is it better to focus an army on one of these major themes or can they be successfully mixed and matched? I have a soft spot for the warrior models, but I also like the wych's, both for look and to add a little in the way of close combat support. Is it better to run MSU kabalites in venoms, or larger units in raiders? Should i give them dark lances or splinter cannons?

I can't really give you an answer in terms of specific units - since so much of the codex works well together now. The best advice I can give you is to try making each unit you take have duality of purpose - both anti-tank and anti-infantry. Examples:

Wracks or Grotesques in a raider = both anti-tank and anti-infantry. Grotesques are STR6 on the charge (rear armour 10, 4 to glance, 5-6 to penetrate) with haemonculi support, and a dark lance on the raider.

Wyches in a raider: Wyches with haywire grenades are excellent anti-tank, with haemonculi support for FNP, also excellent anti-infantry, with the raider serving as a dark lance platform too.

Wyches in a venom: Wyches have haywire grenades for anti-tank, and the venom has dual splinter cannons for anti-infantry support while the wyches are really too small to do the same.

Beasts: Excellent anti-infantry and anti-tank; Khymerae have volume of STR4 attacks that can glance rear armour and I6 to wreck infantry, and razorwings rend on a 6 - meaning glances or penetrates against rear armour, and bypassing armour saves.

Warriors in a venom: Blaster support from a warrior for anti-tank, dual splinter cannons on the venom for anti-infantry, and the unit inside can provide rapid fire support against infantry where applicable.

Scourges: Shard carbines are good anti-infantry volume of fire weapons, their 2 per 5 special weapon allotment lets them serve anti-tank roles as well. I'm a personal fan of trueborn in venoms - they're like being able to take extra ravagers in your list.

So the addition of a blaster or a dark lance (or both) to a unit of kabalite warriors is pretty much essential i'm guessing. Kabalite trueborn seem to be somewhat more specialized to either anti infantry or tank it seems (popular builds seem to be either maxed blasters or 2 splinter cannons and 3 shardcarbines in a unit of 5 mounted in a venom) I think my biggest problem is figuring out who to give my 2 HQ slots..... I would really like to include a very killy character (a huskblade archon or vect if possible) which leaves only one slot for a more supporting force mulitiplyer role. The problem is all the choices are just so GOOD. Haemonculi are the only ones who allow me to take more than one in an HQ slot but that doesn't leave any room for any of the low level special characters. I'm almost overwhelmed with choices really.

I agree with Dash on the purchasing part. The smartest way to go at it with Orks is to figure it out first, and THEN go about buying that style first. I at first wanted a fast/hard hitting build, so I used trukks, battle wagons and rokkit buggies in mine. So thats what I went for, I built what I needed and bought the rest. That style of build doesnt need nearly as many boyz as say a kan wall/horde, but the same can be said about the horde, you need bodies not trukks/BW.

I made the mistake of buy an ork battle force. I am only using the boys from it. The best way to do orks is hit up ebay. People are practically giving away AoBR ork sets. I got 3 deffcoptas for 5$ 40 boys for 50$ and 9 kans for 80$ and 15 lootas for 50$

Bjorn_Stormwolf02 wrote:So the addition of a blaster or a dark lance (or both) to a unit of kabalite warriors is pretty much essential i'm guessing. Kabalite trueborn seem to be somewhat more specialized to either anti infantry or tank it seems (popular builds seem to be either maxed blasters or 2 splinter cannons and 3 shardcarbines in a unit of 5 mounted in a venom) I think my biggest problem is figuring out who to give my 2 HQ slots..... I would really like to include a very killy character (a huskblade archon or vect if possible) which leaves only one slot for a more supporting force mulitiplyer role. The problem is all the choices are just so GOOD. Haemonculi are the only ones who allow me to take more than one in an HQ slot but that doesn't leave any room for any of the low level special characters. I'm almost overwhelmed with choices really.

You're only overwhelmed with HQ options because you don't know what kind of army you want.

Forget about your HQs. Build your army. Then factor in what kind of HQ(s) best support your army type, it will be much narrower than you think. Personally, I use Baron Sathonyx - it doesn't matter what his stats are, I would take him SOLELY for him granting me +1 to my roll to go first. My HQs aren't important, so I found a cheap means of adding a force multiplier. I've got a unit to take advantage of his stealth and phantasm grenade launcher....but even as my lists shift and my beasts go away (potentially) the Baron will stick around and have to go with another unit - because that +1 to go first is just so dang valuable to me.

After considering your advice I have brainstormed a rough theory list:

HQ- Lelith Hesperax- 175

HQ- Baron Sathonyx- 105

Troops- 10 Hellions- 160

Troops- 9 Hellions- 194
Helliarch w phantasm grenade launcher + agonizer

Troops- 10 wyches + raider w flickerfield- 220
Impaler + shardnet, razorflails, hexatrix w agonizer

Troops- 10 wyches + raider w flickerfield- 220
2x razorflails, hexatrix w agonizer

Troops- 9 wyches + raider w flickerfield- 170
2x razorflails

Elites- 5 Kabalite trueborn- 190
3 blasters, 2 splintercannons, venom w 2x splintercannons

Elites- 5 Kabalite trueborn- 190
3 Blasters, 2 splintercannons, venom w 2x splintercannons

Heavy Support- 3x Ravagers w darklances, nightshields + flicker fields - 375

Total - 1999

So the idea behind the army is a fast, combat oriented core of wyches and hellions led by the baron and lelith. Primary anti armor is provided by the ravagers while the trueborn provide general firesupport duties and melt anything i don't like into a molten slag. i equipped them wtih blasters and splinter cannons and with the help of the venom they should be able to do a good job of this provided i keep them out of combat. Any tips or suggestions on improving this list? I just kind of took the idea and ran with it.

Alright....couple of notes here for you based on your preliminary list.

1. Don't feel obligated to take Hellions just because you have the Baron - by himself, he's incredibly potent simply for his ability to give you +1 to go first. The other two mainstays of his special rules definitely need to be attached to a unit, but don't feel like it needs to be Hellions. Personally, I attach him to a unit of beasts. 4x Beastmasters, 4x Razorwings, 9x Khymerae. If you want a combat oriented army, you definitely need at least one unit of these in your army. With the Baron, they gain offensive and defense grenades and a 3+ cover save as long as you're hugging cover - they will utilize it more than your Hellions will. The only catch is the difference in movement and assault speed; the baron can attach and detach to get up to 12" of movement, but during the assault phase, if the baron is attached, the beasts won't get a 12" assault - it will be 6" at most. However, you've got a good chance of 6" because you move at the speed of the slowest unit - which is the Baron - who has the IC movement rules and gets the best of 3d6 movement, so when you assault, its 3d6, capped at 6".

2. Flickerfields are absolutely useful - Nightshields are not. Your lances are 36" range....and a nightshield reduces incoming fire by 6". Autocannons are 48", missile launchers are 48", and predators/razorbacks/chimera can move 6" forward if you're at the exact 36" range and still fire at you - so you won't really ever get utility out of it unless you're trying to shortcircuit someone's melta double tap, which they don't need to kill a ravager. Truly wasted points.

3. This *is* a mechanized world. You want as much anti-tank as you can get. Kick your trueborn up to all blasters.

4. I've been a Lelith fan since I started playing DE, but with the new codex, she's been regrettably shelved. She simply isn't worth her points anymore. No more Shadowfield, no more retinue, no more wych weapons. I'd advise against her. In exchange, consider the dread Lady. If you don't want Lady Malys, and want a second HQ, consider some Haemonculi. The biggest downfall of wyches is getting shot out of their transport - starting them with a pain token from a haemonculi for Feel No Pain will give them a bunch of survivability.

5. Speaking of mechanized forces....haywire grenades got two points cheaper in this codex, and wych units without them are simply not right. =p Add in haywire grenades. If you take out the Hellions, you should be able to afford more wych raiders, the trueborn changes will give you an anti-tank boost, the haywire grenades will give you even more anti-tank and the ability to deal with monoliths and black templar blessed hull (which ignores lance weapons) - and I expect to see a resurgence of them given their potent FAQ updates.

Night shields are absolutely worth it. They ruin a large chunk of very popular anti-tank weapons, as well as most anti-infantry weapons that can hurt a raider, and the 'but your weapons are only 36"' is a deceptive argument that implies the only thing that might want to shoot the raider/ravager is whatever it's shooting at. Unless your opponent has their forces in one little ball, that shouldn't be the case, and reducing the static range of a 48" weapon to 42" frees up a lot of the board as out of range, and almost anything that moves is going to have grossly reduced firepower, with infantry carrying heavy weapons left unable to fire for another turn.

For ten points on a raider that costs 70 already (since the flickerfield is a must), and is carrying more than a hundred points of infantry, nightshields are worth it. On a ravager, which will be sitting in your backfield, and costs 115 already (again, because of flickerfields), they're a steal, and on a razorwing (or voidraven if you absolutely had to have implosion missiles, a void mine, or void lances for their outrageous cost for some reason) you'd be insane not to take them, with its 48" infantry pulping missiles and 155 cost (again, flickerfields should really just be tacked on to the base, since they're always worth it).

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Night shields are absolutely worth it. They ruin a large chunk of very popular anti-tank weapons, as well as most anti-infantry weapons that can hurt a raider, and the 'but your weapons are only 36"' is a deceptive argument that implies the only thing that might want to shoot the raider/ravager is whatever it's shooting at. Unless your opponent has their forces in one little ball, that shouldn't be the case, and reducing the static range of a 48" weapon to 42" frees up a lot of the board as out of range, and almost anything that moves is going to have grossly reduced firepower, with infantry carrying heavy weapons left unable to fire for another turn.

For ten points on a raider that costs 70 already (since the flickerfield is a must), and is carrying more than a hundred points of infantry, nightshields are worth it. On a ravager, which will be sitting in your backfield, and costs 115 already (again, because of flickerfields), they're a steal, and on a razorwing (or voidraven if you absolutely had to have implosion missiles, a void mine, or void lances for their outrageous cost for some reason) you'd be insane not to take them, with its 48" infantry pulping missiles and 155 cost (again, flickerfields should really just be tacked on to the base, since they're always worth it).

Everyone has their own opinion, which is respectable, but I stand by my argument - nightshields are not useful on ravagers...and mostly not useful on other vehicles. Any decent opponent is going to pay attention to the range you're firing, and compensate....on the rare occurances that they need to.

I wanted to address one of your statements in particular: "They ruin a large chunk of very popular anti-tank weapons." What weapons are those?

1. Autocannons: These are the most frequent anti-tank weapons in competitive play. Auto-las predators, rifleman dreads, IG Heavy weapon teams, Khymerae - Nightshields don't affect them because they have 12" further range than the Lance.
2. Missile Launchers: Same as above - if you are in range to shoot your ravager, the missiles are in range to shoot you regardless of your nightshield. This is most applicable to Space Wolves, where Missiles are found most plentifully.
3. Living Lightning: Unlimited Range, and the Nightshields don't matter.
4. Railguns: 72" range, capable of outranging the ravager regardless of nightshields.
5. Multilasers: The same 36" range as you - and if you can shoot a chimera with a ravager....it and any surrounding chimeras can move up 6" and answer back.
6. Lascannons: Razorbacks and predators that you can range can move 6" up if you are at maximum possible range and answer back.
7. Multi-meltas and meltas: The first opportunity to actually outrange an enemy - but you can do that with natural 36" range with the exception of landspeeders (who can move 12" and still fire) - meaning that if you are a *very* good judge of range, you could have a running gun-battle between a ravager and a landspeeder....which is a poor use of resources on the Dark Eldar part. In terms of melta-guns - if a melta gun is shooting at you, so are all the bolters, and you've got bigger issues for not using your mobility to stay out of short range.
8. Assault Cannons: 24" range weapons, and the only real weapon against which a nightshield would be useful due to disproportionate firing ranges. However, these are not main-stay anti-tank - they are supplemental in lists using them.
9. Lances: Same range as you, and the Eldar / Dark Eldar platforms wielding them can move 12" and still fire them, negating the utility of the nightshield.

Beyond that, the variety of anti-infantry weapons that also work against raiders/ravagers (heavy bolters, pulse rifles, bolters for the former) aren't worth the wargear upgrade.

The governing philosophy of Dark Eldar is that they are a glass cannon. The best defense is a good offense. The best way to defend the Dark Eldar is to pack in as much killing potential as possible and savage the enemy so brutally so that they can't respond adequately enough to be threatening. Every point that goes into defensive wargear or ablative wounds is a point that could have been spent on adding killing power and making the Dark Eldar more lethal.

Flickerfields are a different story; they're a literal force multiplier. With a 5+ cover save, its like having a free venom/raider for every three you take. Running 9 raiders is like actually having 12 on the table.

The list could work but don't count on the trueborn surviving long. They are excellent at busting one tank over their own points value but are downed quickly after. I also feel my 1250 pts DE pack more of a punch than your 2000pts DE. You might want to give each unit of wyches a heamonculus, for it allows them to strike harder.

I am a bit put out by the raiders.

I only have 2 game under my belt, I had 3 raiders and 2 ravagers, and they got shot down in turn 1 (raiders) and turn 2 (ravagers) and I was stuck with an army of wracks and 5 helions + baron (my trueborn+haermonuli ran of the board after a failed LD save.)

My voidraven bomber came in from suport and killed a tanks before he was blown away.

I did manadge a draw because of the baron and the helions, beastmasters are amazing. And the fact that his 16 missile launchers/3 lascannons/2 twin linked placmagun/4 twin linked assault cannon could not shoot wracks out of cover.

My regular oponent ONLY fields SM ranged spam in all forms and fasions. Raiders and Ravagers do not do anything against him, so even though I bought 5 boats all in all I think webway portals are the way to go. I am thinking of a 20 man warrior squad + haemonculy and a 6 grotesque + haemonoly and baron (baron detaches when the helions/beastmasters come from reserve.)

If your vehicles got shot down that fast, then your melee should have been free to finish his armor. You wasted points on a Voidraven that wasn't out on the first turn. You missed the idea of bringing overwhelming firepower on turn 1. You need to make your opponent's decision of destroying your vehicles or weakening your melee assault extremely difficult. This is one of the principle reasons the Voidraven is bad. Consider grisly trophies for the LD save. I would try and make your force work before you give up and switch the strategy completely. Every wasted point is hurting you more than anything.

Interesting... I'm loving all this feedback it really is very helpful for me. Alright, night shields are out. Even if they are actually useful in certain situations I don't think I would have the experience to make them worth the extra cost. A real shame about Lelith, I love her model, artwork etc. Alright my modified prototype list is as follows:

HQ- Lady Malys- 130

HQ- Baron Sathonyx- 105

Troops- 10 Wyches in raider w flickerfield- 240
Haywire grenades, 2x razorflails, hexatrix w agonizer


Troops- 10 Wyches in raider w flickerfield- 240
Haywire grenades, 2x razorflails, hexatrix w agonizer


Troops- 9 Wyches in raider w flickerfield- 188
Haywire grenades, Shardnet + impaler

Elites- 5 Kabalite Trueborn- 200
Blasters, Venom w 2x splinter cannons

Elites- 5 Kabalite Trueborn- 200
Blasters, Venom w 2x splinter cannons

Fast Attack- 4 Beastmasters- 168
4x razorwings, 5x kymerae

Heavy Support- 3 Ravagers w darklances + flickerfields- 345

Total- 1816

So the trueborn now ALL carry blasters to melt down enemy armor and alternatively MEQ's if the occasion demands it. Wyches were all given haywires, nightshields are gone and I've added a pack of beasts like you suggested. I now have 184 unspent points to use for further force adjustments. Any ideas? I was thinking either more beasts or a small unit of incubi in a venom.

Might want to double check the codex (mine is packed away in my battlefoam at the moment) but I think you can only take 4 blasters per unit of trueborn - which is why my trueborn are only 4x strong.

Yeah, you can only take four blasters per squad.

Blasters and Splinter Cannons? Multi-role? Fail.

The splinter cannons are obviously on the venoms.

The unit wasn't legal so I was thrown off by the point cost

They are correct, only 4x blasters per trueborn squad, so you net another 30 points for the blasters and another 24 if you choose to drop the 5th trueborn, soooo 214, or 238 points available. Also, your beastmaster squad, you have one more beastmaster than you actually need to field the beasts you have, if you wanted to drop one.

Ah yes. I see you are indeed right, only 4 blasters per unit of trueborn.
What is your opionions on harlequins? Or the talos? I know a lot of people compare them to incubi and say they are an inferior choice, but they do have a higher initiative + leadership 9 and more attacks, as well as the ability to hit and run and ignore difficult terrain. I can see a decent sized unit coming out of a webway portal to be very nasty. The talos is slow, but if i bring a couple of them out of a webway portal they won't have to worry about being shot so much while they creep up the battlefield. And once they get in range they make a horrible mess of whatever you sick them on.