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I had a buddy run two deamon princes with lash against me tonight. Which is fine I have faced lash before. However, he tried a new tactic and I argued with him for a while and told him he could not do what he was doing. I have never seen it before.

Lash of Submission is a psychic power where if you pass it you can move an non-infantry model 2d6 inches and then they are required to take a pinning test.

What he did:

Lash my unit and say he rolled a 4+3 which means he can move them 7". He moves one model up 7" and then moves every other model back 7". Making the distance between my models 14". A god awful distance between models. He had one occasion where my models where close to 24" apart due to a double lash and continuing to move them apart.
He moved one up and assaulted it while the rest of my models where so ridiculously far away that when he overkilled the model it killed off the whole unit.

IMHO: This is an illegal move and ultimately ruins the game. Doesnt lash require the person who is MOVING the model to maintain 2" unit cohesion? I have run lash before and have never seen it ran to this degree of brokeness. Please tell me he ran this wrong. In addition, can you explain why he ran it long. I was sifting through the rulebook looking for something to support my argument.

I have seen lash used a lot, but never like that...

A look under unit coherency, p.12 BRB "when moving a unit..." would support that you can't move a unit out of coherency unless a specific condition says you can.

Check the FAQ. Its one of the first answered. Basicly what he did was incorrect. When lashing, you move target unit 2d6 as per a normal move. You can spread them or bunch them, providing you don't move off the table, through impassable, within 1" of enemy or out of coherency. Otherwise anything goes, and difficult terrain is ignored. I would recommend your gaming buddy read the FAQ or have it downloaded and ready for reading yourself.

DarthSpader wrote:Check the FAQ. Its one of the first answered. Basicly what he did was incorrect. When lashing, you move target unit 2d6 as per a normal move. You can spread them or bunch them, providing you don't move off the table, through impassable, within 1" of enemy or out of coherency. Otherwise anything goes, and difficult terrain is ignored. I would recommend your gaming buddy read the FAQ or have it downloaded and ready for reading yourself.

Even better.

DarthSpader wrote:Check the FAQ. Its one of the first answered. Basicly what he did was incorrect. When lashing, you move target unit 2d6 as per a normal move. You can spread them or bunch them, providing you don't move off the table, through impassable, within 1" of enemy or out of coherency. Otherwise anything goes, and difficult terrain is ignored. I would recommend your gaming buddy read the FAQ or have it downloaded and ready for reading yourself.

Thanks, appreciate the help. I figured as much. Lash is broken but not that broken, lmao. If it was ran like that I would take lash and move heavy weapons all day. I sent the faq to my friend. I am just glad it was a friendly match and not in a tournament where people would of blown it out of proportion.

This is why as a 40k player I print and bring my faqs to all games.. I surprise myself sometimes forgetting things..

Agreed, I have the FAQ printed for all the armies that come to my table. Usually the FAQs are helpful. But sometimes..................................

Tomb King wrote:

DarthSpader wrote:Check the FAQ. Its one of the first answered. Basicly what he did was incorrect. When lashing, you move target unit 2d6 as per a normal move. You can spread them or bunch them, providing you don't move off the table, through impassable, within 1" of enemy or out of coherency. Otherwise anything goes, and difficult terrain is ignored. I would recommend your gaming buddy read the FAQ or have it downloaded and ready for reading yourself.

Thanks, appreciate the help. I figured as much. Lash is broken but not that broken, lmao. If it was ran like that I would take lash and move heavy weapons all day. I sent the faq to my friend. I am just glad it was a friendly match and not in a tournament where people would of blown it out of proportion.

Not sure why you took a cheap shot at tourny players there... But as for your question, he has to maintain coherency.

BUT if he has enough models to do so, he can move them into a gigantic circle which can have any two models very spread out so long as they are coherent

Last tourney i went to I had my Eldar opponent deploy his Farseer and Seer council in A Dire Avenger's Wave serpent and Flat out first turn. Did i mention that the set-up was Dawn of War? The TO allowed this, because the Eldar Player cried about it when i told him none of what he was doing was legal. Also He brought his Dire avengers on from table edge first turn riding in the Seer councils Wave serpent.

Some tourney players can be really whiny even when they know what they are doing is clearly against the rules.

frgsinwntr wrote:

Tomb King wrote:

DarthSpader wrote:Check the FAQ. Its one of the first answered. Basicly what he did was incorrect. When lashing, you move target unit 2d6 as per a normal move. You can spread them or bunch them, providing you don't move off the table, through impassable, within 1" of enemy or out of coherency. Otherwise anything goes, and difficult terrain is ignored. I would recommend your gaming buddy read the FAQ or have it downloaded and ready for reading yourself.

Thanks, appreciate the help. I figured as much. Lash is broken but not that broken, lmao. If it was ran like that I would take lash and move heavy weapons all day. I sent the faq to my friend. I am just glad it was a friendly match and not in a tournament where people would of blown it out of proportion.

Not sure why you took a cheap shot at tourny players there... But as for your question, he has to maintain coherency.

BUT if he has enough models to do so, he can move them into a gigantic circle which can have any two models very spread out so long as they are coherent

Was not a shot at tourney players. Just that it was a friendly game. In tournament games people are more up tight from time to time.

he needs to maintain coherency.
when I ran lash I would freqently string out units. you can move the choppy bits of the squad or attached characters to the far back of the line.

Tomb King wrote:

Was not a shot at tourney players. Just that it was a friendly game. In tournament games people are more up tight from time to time.

It's a shame that your "Friendly Game" involved someone blatantly misusing a psychic power and abusing you with it. Very friendly.

Yeah it's folks that think they can do something like that who will ruin a game... Of course you can't scatter the squad around... major balance issues for one, and you can't target an individual toop in a unit unless the rules specifically say so (Sgt Tellion)...

I'd recommend your buddy read his FAQ, or better yet ask a fellow Chaos player if that's allowed.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Last tourney i went to I had my Eldar opponent deploy his Farseer and Seer council in A Dire Avenger's Wave serpent and Flat out first turn. Did i mention that the set-up was Dawn of War? The TO allowed this, because the Eldar Player cried about it when i told him none of what he was doing was legal. Also He brought his Dire avengers on from table edge first turn riding in the Seer councils Wave serpent.

Some tourney players can be really whiny even when they know what they are doing is clearly against the rules.

That is why you have TOs that are worth a damn and know the rules

Great now I have a new question. I heard you can lash a character out of a unit. Is this true?

The rulebook states that people can not move a character out of a unit in the shooting or assault phase. In this case people also can not run a character out of a unit in those phases. Which I have seen done plenty of times without thinking about it. Though the wording targets after shooting and everything so I am unsure.

No, you target a unit, not models within a unit.

Unless the rules specifically state otherwise, you can't target individual troops in a unit with any weapon or psychic power. When this is the case, there will be no ambiguity. Sgt. Tellion for instance.

It's not about targeting specific models in the unit, it's about the fact that, as you pointed out, no character may leave a unit outside of its own movement phase.

It is a legal move to move an IC out of coherency of a unit (thus detaching it from the unit) but not in the shooting phase.

somerandomdude wrote:It's not about targeting specific models in the unit, it's about the fact that, as you pointed out, no character may leave a unit outside of its own movement phase.

It is a legal move to move an IC out of coherency of a unit (thus detaching it from the unit) but not in the shooting phase.

It is about both, but the move is less relevant.

Lash targets a unit.
An IC joined to a unit is not a unit itself, and thus cannot be targeted as one.

We're arguing about something that doesn't matter, but:

When you move the unit with Lash, you don't have to move every model. If you choose to move only the IC, it's not because you targeted only the IC, but because you chose to move one model in the unit.

If you move an IC out of coherency in the movement phase, that IC detaches.

Again, it's a pointless discussion because Lash happens in the shooting phase, which is not a phase where ICs can detach. This WOULD be a legal move, if ICs could detach in the shooting phase.

Moot debate, FTW!

Lash FAQ states that models cannot be moved out of unit coherency, so even if it were allowed in the shooting phase, Lash prohibits it.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Last tourney i went to I had my Eldar opponent deploy his Farseer and Seer council in A Dire Avenger's Wave serpent and Flat out first turn. Did i mention that the set-up was Dawn of War? The TO allowed this, because the Eldar Player cried about it when i told him none of what he was doing was legal. Also He brought his Dire avengers on from table edge first turn riding in the Seer councils Wave serpent.

Some tourney players can be really whiny even when they know what they are doing is clearly against the rules.

Sorry if I may be hijacking a bit, but I would be grateful if someone would edify me exactly what about that was illegal. (No sarcasm. I seriously want to know.)

prussia59 wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Last tourney i went to I had my Eldar opponent deploy his Farseer and Seer council in A Dire Avenger's Wave serpent and Flat out first turn. Did i mention that the set-up was Dawn of War? The TO allowed this, because the Eldar Player cried about it when i told him none of what he was doing was legal. Also He brought his Dire avengers on from table edge first turn riding in the Seer councils Wave serpent.

Some tourney players can be really whiny even when they know what they are doing is clearly against the rules.

Sorry if I may be hijacking a bit, but I would be grateful if someone would edify me exactly what about that was illegal. (No sarcasm. I seriously want to know.)

He gave both units dedicated transports and then switched which transport they were in. That is the No Go!

Additionally the Farseer and the Warlock council were 2 separate HQ units; you're only allowed to deploy 1 HQ in DOW

prussia59 wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Last tourney i went to I had my Eldar opponent deploy his Farseer and Seer council in A Dire Avenger's Wave serpent and Flat out first turn. Did i mention that the set-up was Dawn of War? The TO allowed this, because the Eldar Player cried about it when i told him none of what he was doing was legal. Also He brought his Dire avengers on from table edge first turn riding in the Seer councils Wave serpent.

Some tourney players can be really whiny even when they know what they are doing is clearly against the rules.

Sorry if I may be hijacking a bit, but I would be grateful if someone would edify me exactly what about that was illegal. (No sarcasm. I seriously want to know.)

First rule broken: You can only deploy up to 1 unit from HQ and 2 units from Troops in Dawn of War. A squad of warlocks (seer council) and Farseer are two HQ units.
Second rule broken: A unit cannot start the game deployed in another unit's Dedicated Transport (although an IC can attach to a unit embarked in its own DT if there's space). The seer council couldn't have started the game embarked in another squad's DT.
Third rule broken: Same as the second, but for the Dire Avengers in the Warlocks squad's Wave Serpent.
Extra credit: It would have been legal for the Farseer or Warlocks to start OUTSIDE the DA's serpent, and hop into it turn one (if it was deployed with the hatch within 8" of the table edge, the other HQ element could have even moved on from the edge, joined up, and jumped in together), but you can't move a Fast transport Flat Out in the same turn that a squad embarks onto or disembarks from it.

This situation honestly has little to do with tournaments. It has to do with a player who doesn't know the rules and a TO who either doesn't know them or is incapable of enforcing them, thus making him an incompetent and unqualified TO.

I have to comment on both things creep up here
First Lash is an insanly awesome skill, it really is, but it cannot be used to break coherancy, no matter what, there is no way to suck a IC out, and there is no way to Make one model be more then 2" away from his unit, let alone 24"!! The BRB and the Lash FAQ helps solve that matter clearly..


As for the farseer....When a farseer takes a Warlock council, they count as a single HQ choice, not too. where he broke the rules was deploying them in the transport of the DA, however, if he woulda just chosen it as his DT for his Council, and only deployed them he woulda been fine, but he could not deploy both the DA's and BOTH transports


(the farseer + warlocks = one unit is page60 of the eldar codex, under the Farseer Entry "for each farseer in the army you may include a squad of 3-10 warlcoks, this unit and the farseer are a single HQ choice) im not sure if this makes them a Retinue, but they do count as ONE hq unit

Nightrave wrote:I have to comment on both things creep up here
First Lash is an insanly awesome skill, it really is, but it cannot be used to break coherancy, no matter what, there is no way to suck a IC out, and there is no way to Make one model be more then 2" away from his unit, let alone 24"!! The BRB and the Lash FAQ helps solve that matter clearly..


As for the farseer....When a farseer takes a Warlock council, they count as a single HQ choice, not too. where he broke the rules was deploying them in the transport of the DA, however, if he woulda just chosen it as his DT for his Council, and only deployed them he woulda been fine, but he could not deploy both the DA's and BOTH transports


(the farseer + warlocks = one unit is page60 of the eldar codex, under the Farseer Entry "for each farseer in the army you may include a squad of 3-10 warlcoks, this unit and the farseer are a single HQ choice) im not sure if this makes them a Retinue, but they do count as ONE hq unit

I disagree with this, they count as one HQ choice, or slot, but that's not the same as one unit. For example, Marines mounted in a Rhino count as one Troops slot, they're still two distinct units.

Which actually means that you cannot really deploy two squads in Rhinos using the DoW deployment since that would be to deploy 4 units.

Can I have my Lash DP to move an enemy unit within assault range, then charge it, effectively turning lash into a "fishing rod of submission"?

ENKHANNA wrote:Can I have my Lash DP to move an enemy unit within assault range, then charge it, effectively turning lash into a "fishing rod of submission"?

You're supposed to take two Daemon Princes with fishing rods, wings, and silly hats if you do that.

Not that it is a tactic to willingly use, but an option to use if in case of need.