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HQ

1 Shas'El fireknife
2 Shas'Vre Fireknife

Elites

3 FireKnife
3 FireKnife
3 Deathtrain

Troops
6 Fire warriors
6 Fire warriors
12 Kroot +5 Kroot Hounds
12 Kroot +5 Kroot Hounds

Fast attack

8 Pathfinders
Devilfish with Disruption pod

Heavy Support

5 Broadsides with advanced stab systems.

Knock out the individual points costs man and just leave the totals as GW copywrite blah blah

85thcommander wrote:Knock out the individual points costs man and just leave the totals as GW copywrite blah blah

Thanks man, done.

Dump all the target locks. Get targetting arrays on the HQs. You're battlesuits are illegal they have 2 weapons systems and 2 support systems they are only allowed 3 total.

No markerlights is a bad idea and I'm not going to count the MLs on the FW squads they do nothing. FW squads out of devilfish are dead.

The shaper and the armour saves are not worth it for Kroot. They are meat shields.

Your broadsides are illegal.

1 Hammerhead isn't worth it at any points level over 1000. You need 2 or none. Plus it is missing essential wargear like a DP and multitraker. Target locks and flechettes are always a good idea too.

2 Railguns isn't enough at this point level particularly with the total lack of melta in the list. Especially as you're up against 2 LRs. I'd go with at least 5 Railguns and probably some melta too. I'd put some path finders in there. I'd drop all the illegal stuff it's not helping anyway. I'd almost completely revise the list.

On top of what flightitnow said,

The 6+ save for kroot is pointless. It is by far more effective to get more kroot than buying the save. Not to mention, almost every single gun will ignore the save.


Also, you don't need to list every single battlesuit and their equipment. It is easier to list things like this:

Crisis Battlesuits (3x)
-PR/MP/MT
-Team leader w/ BK

Broadsides (2x)
-TA

It is much easier to read lists that are like that. Equipment that comes with units standard doesn't need to be listed (TL Railguns and SMS for example on the broadsides)

Thanks for the input guys. I pretty much copy and pasted my list onto here so my bad for the crappy formating. Im getting rid of the kroot cover save it truly is useless. Also the target locks are gone. Im at work so I dont have access to my codex. Could I have hard wired targeting arrays on the broadsides? Would you suggest removing the hammerhead in favor of another squad of broadsides?

Targetting arrays can't be hardwired and if they could they could only be taken on the team leader.

I just noticed you were going to play marines...

I wouldn't get rid of the ion-head. I would get rid of a unit of fire warriors, and use those points for more broadsides. Ion-heads really hurt marines, and you need more railgun for the two land-raiders. (or fusion blasters on your crisis suits... but that's suicide in general.)

Ion-heads really hurt marines,

What? on average 1.66 dead marines dropping to 0.83 dead marines in cover a turn. Sure marines are quaking in their boots...

TL-fusion and flamer suits in pairs are good suicide units for dealing with landraiders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Piranhas are good too and can road block LRs.

... maybe if you target characters...

Ion-heads are actually more suited for walker/transport hunting.

Get rid of it. Your fireknifes can take of any light armor on the board.

Lhowatt wrote:First list in a long while here it goes...

HQ-

Commander Shas'el
-Plasma Rifle
-Missile Pod
-Multi Tracker
-Target Lock
-Bonding Knife
Your commander gets to take special stuff for a reason. Give him something cool like the Airbursting Fragmentation Projector. Also the Bonding Knife isn't needed. You would have to loose both bodyguards to be below half strength and at that point he becomes an independent character.


2 XV8 Shas'Vre Bodyguards
-2X Missile Pod
-2X Plasma Rifle
-2X Multi Tracker
-2X Target Lock
Again with these guys. They can take special stuff. Also, you can hardwire the Multi-trackers to make them not illegal.

~TOTAL~ 251

Elites-
~Squad 1~
Commander Shas'ui
-Plasma Rifle
-Missile Pod
-Multi Tracker
-Target Lock
-Bonding Knife

2 XV8 Shas'ui Bodyguards
-2X Missile Pod
-2X Plasma Rifle
-2X Multi Tracker
-2X Target Lock
You should list the team leader with the XV8's. It makes it easier to read.


~Squad 2~
Commander Shas'ui
-Plasma Rifle
-Missile Pod
-Multi Tracker
-Target Lock
-Bonding Knife

2 XV8 Shas'ui Bodyguards
-2X Missile Pod
-2X Plasma Rifle
-2X Multi Tracker
-2X Target Lock

~Squad 3~
Commander Shas'ui
-Plasma Rifle
-Missile Pod
-Multi Tracker
-Target Lock
-Bonding Knife

2 XV8 Shas'ui Bodyguards
-2X Missile Pod
-2X Plasma Rifle
-2X Multi Tracker
-2X Target Lock
I know the fireknife configuration is awesome, but you shouldn't have just them. You might want some fusion blasters, or maybe deathrain (TL Missile pods, targetting array).

~TOTAL~ 633


Troops-

~SQUAD 1~
Shas'Ui
Bonding Knife
Markerlight

8X Shas'La Warriors
Don't give the Shas'ui a markerlight, there are better places to get them. Get these guys in Devilfish. They are pretty tough transports. Same for the other squad.
~SQUAD 2~]
Shas'Ui
Bonding Knife
Markerlight

8X Shas'La Warriors

~SQUAD 3~
Kroot Shaper
13X 6+ Armor save

13 Kroot
No armor saves. Get some kroot hounds. They help kroot become a lot stronger. Same for the other unit.
~SQUAD 4~
Kroot Shaper
14X 6+ Armor Save

14X Kroot

~TOTAL~ 502


Heavy Support-

~SQUAD 1~
Hammerhead Gunship
Ion Cannon
Burst Cannon
All Tau vehicles should have disruption pods. No exception. They are too awesome not to take.

~SQUAD 2~

Commander XV88 Shas'Vre
Twin Linked Railgun
Smart Missile System
Multi Tracker
Targeting Array

2X XV88 Broadsides
2X Twin Linked Railgun
2X Smart Missile System
2X Targeting Array
2X Multi Tracker
These guys are illegal. I would suggest giving them advanced stabilization system. That way they can move and still shoot. And get another unit of Broadsides. They are the most efficient railgun platform.

~TOTAL~ 380

GRAND TOTAL 1766 (1750)

At this point level, I would get at least one full size unit of pathfinders. By taking off all the illegal upgrades for your suits, you should find points for them. If you need more points, drop your bodyguards. They aren't that much better than normal XV8s, and your commander can just join one of your other squads. If you need more points, you can drop the kroot shapers as well. They don't bring enough for their points cost.

I need to take some kroot out or something.

Any advice or revisions? I will be facing an Ultramarines army tomorrow with close combat marines, 2 land raiders, 2 rhino's, and a couple tac squads. I always seem to have trouble getting away from his marines.

I could do all the math for you if you -really- want, but on top of everything everyone else said, you get 3 Kroot Carnivores for the price of 1 Shaper, and the 3 Carnivores are waaaaayyyyyyyy more efficient than the 1 shaper. Especially in the shooting phase.

People usually get shapers for the leadership... and that's all they have to offer anyways.

Thanks guys ill implement the suggested changes when I get home!

Well I mean they get extra attacks too, and potential for wargear... but I find that adding 3 models does more for avoiding the leadership check in the first place.

Cottonjaw wrote:Well I mean they get extra attacks too, and potential for wargear... but I find that adding 3 models does more for avoiding the leadership check in the first place.

exactly, not to mention you add many more attacks.

Updated my list. I was thinking adding the Kroot hounds would be good because the Kroot will probably enter assault very early on due to drop pods. I also read that people only take 12 fire warriors so that they can all be placed inside of a Devilfish that the pathfinders brought. I'm not sure what the strategy is behind this. Could someone enlighten me?

Alright buddy, as a veteran tau player I've dedicated myself to trying to guide new tau players along. First, tau isn't an easy codex. It's old. There are just some lists you will lose to (I'm looking at you Dark Eldar). Also, you have to play weird to win with tau. You have to do things that seem counter to what you would naturally want to do (like wrapping your kroot along an entire table edge to prevent outflankers from coming on the board).

Here's the list I run at 1750:

1750/1750

--HQ--

1 Shas'El 87
-Plasma Rifle
-Missile Pod
-Multi-tracker
2 Crisis Bodyguards 164
-Plasma Rifle x2
-Missile Pod x2
-Multi-tracker x2
-HW Targeting Array x2

--Troops--

6 Fire Warriors 60

10 Kroot Carnivores 118
8 Kroot Hounds

10 Kroot Carnivores 118
8 Kroot Hounds

--Elites--

3 Crisis Suits 159
-TL MP x3
-Targeting Array x3

3 Crisis Suits 159
-TL MP x3
-Targeting Array x3

3 Crisis Suits 159
-TL MP x3
-Targeting Array x3

--Heavy Support--

2 Broadside Battlesuits 170
-Targeting Array x2
-Team Leader
--Target Lock

3 Broadside Battlesuits 250
-Targeting Array x3
-Team Leader
--Target Lock

--Fast Attack--

2 Piranha Skimmers 150
-Targeting Array x2
-Disruption Pod
-Target Lock
-Fusion Blaster x2

2 Piranha Skimmers 150
-Targeting Array x2
-Disruption Pod
-Target Lock
-Fusion Blaster x2

Here's the breakdown of the tau codex: your troop choices suck because they were designed in a day and age when troops weren't important (as I understand it, in 4th edition any unit could capture an objective). Now that they're important you have to work around your sub-par troop choices.

Fire Warriors blow. They're over-priced and do nothing. If they weren't a 1+ choice I wouldn't take them; fire caste belong in XV suits, not carapace armor. Kroot are better (still not good, but better). On top of giving you a melee component (that, admittedly, you shouldn't ever have to use) they're cheap and easy to conga-line. You use them to cover your flank/backfield from outflankers. If there aren't any outflankers (or outflankers that you can stop) you use them as a meat shield for your dudes (against opposing melee threats). IF there are no threatening outflankers that you can stop by stretching your kroot along a threatened table edge AND your opponent has no credible melee threats (a combination that would probably not happen) AND you don't need to use the kroot to spread out and defend against deep striking threats (like blood angels and daemons), THEN, and only then, may you do things like infiltrate or outflank with your kroot. And yes, kroot hounds > kroot carnivores. You can use wargs from LOTR as counts-as for kroot hounds; that should cheapen the financial blow (16.75 for 6 vs. 13.75 for 2).

Now, the best tau lists, imho, are 'kroots and suits.' So after kroot, you want to maximize the number of suits you can take. Makes sense, right? You want to take the most amount of the best thing in your codex. Starting off with Broadsides, there's not much you can do. They're gonna be 80 points a piece (because you HAVE to take a support system, you should be taking either the advanced stabilisation system or the targeting array, generally the former). But your only two effective choices for the kit on the crisis suits is twin-linked missile pods + targeting array (deathrain) or plasma rifle + missile pod + multi-tracker (fireknife). I generally prefer to make my command squads fireknives because you can give them multi-trackers AND targeting arrays (the other thing about your codex—you're actually a BS4 codex, you just have to pay a premium to get it—and you should always pay that premium, except with broadsides, where the choice is optional because they're already twin-linked). But my standard crisis suits I like to run as deathrains because it's cheaper and you can make them very accurate. Also, you should almost always go for the Shas'el because he's more points efficient. He's not a melee fighter and he's going to die to any S8+ weapons and he can't give his leadership to any other troops, so the extra wounds and better stat line isn't really that important. Furthermore, all the special weapons suck. I know they call to you, but don't let them. They're over-priced and aren't as good as you would think. Trust me on this one.

Finally, your fast attack choices. You're only real choices here are between pathfinders and piranhas. It all depends on what you want to do with your list. I prefer to purchase piranhas because (1) they can control the movements of your opponent's army by serving as roadblocks and (2) they might pop some tanks. That's the other thing about tau—most of your army is going to be dedicated simply to obstructing your opponent's plans while whittling away at them with your ranged weapons. Now, pathfinders fulfill a different role in that they make the rest of your army better. I used to run them a lot, but they're expensive and they tend to die, so I started running piranhas because they're cheaper and they perform a function generally in keeping with the design of the army, namely obstructing my opponent's movement.

As for everything else in the codex, it's pretty much crap. Of the entries in the codex which I have not included in my list, there are only three that deserve a look—pathfinders, devilfish and hammerheads. I don't run pathfinders because they're more expensive than piranhas, but I won't turn my nose at people who run them. Devilfish, when geared as warfish (disruption pod, targeting array, SMART missile system, multi-tracker for a total of 120) yields a competent, if expensive, gunship. Hammerheads are, point-for-point, the best tank in the game so it might seem kind of silly not to run them. However, the problem with hammerheads is that they actually decrease the number of railguns you can field (because it takes up a heavy support slot, which could yield 3 railguns from broadsides). Therefore, even though they're pretty boss, I generally pass up the quality hammerhead for a larger quantity of broadsides.

One note concerning the kit on broadsides—you generally want to equip them with the stabilisation system because the mobility is very important. Also, make one the team leader and stick a target lock on him. You never know when you might need to reach out and touch more than two or three targets, and those target locks will let you reach out and touch between four and six targets where you normally only get 2-3.

That's my take on the tau codex. I had to play the army for four years before I figured it out, but now that I've figured it out I feel obligated to sharing my knowledge with new initiates. But now that I've de-mystified army building for Tau, it's up to you to learn how to play the army. Good luck with that. But I'd recommend playing to disrupt your opponent's plans by disrupting his movement by blocking his stuff with throw-away units (piranhas and kroot) while peppering them from range with your suits. Do that and you should win more than you lose.

Good luck buddy. For the Greater Good!

Knute do you never play 5th Ed? You tal about the importance on troops in in yet you have no unit that is likely to be able to hold an objective come turn 5. You meat shield your Kroot so they are dead and 6 FWs out of a fish are always dead.

Whilst you've got plenty of good advice it is too streamlined to your army. There are other suit configs that work well. For instance Helios (FB+PR). Or Heatwave (TLFB + Fl), both these putting fusion into the list which can make up for the lack of railguns if you're going to HH route. Though having said that taking 2 Hammerheads still enables you to take 5 Railguns which is exactly as many as you have in your list. The heatwaves are suicide units.

Targetlocks aren't great they cause as many problems as they solve. As you have to declare all targets before rolling any dice you are generally better off firing all your units railguns at the tank you most need dead otherwise that will be the tank you roll poorly on the vehcile damage table for or fail to penetrate. With only 3 guns in a unit splitting fire is rarely a good option.

Pathfinders are cheaper than Piranhas. Again you missed off vital equipement and chucked on next to useless equipement. The Disruption Pods are of marginal value to a Piranha it should be getting a cover save anyway or be within 12" of the opponent. But hey 2.5 points a model is just about worth it. But they should have flechettes when taken in squads always take flechettes! That makes them about 80 points a model 4 pathfinders is 48 points. 6 is only 72 points. know what your thinking what about the compulsory devilfish? Well you also have to take 1 unit of FWs and you have to give them a DF or you can't win objective games.

Another unit which can be effective though only in larger games (2k+) is the stealth marker team. Basically a stealth team with a team leader with marker light and all the guys having drone controllers and 2 markerdrones. Now you have mobile marker lights that can't be shot at .

Marker lights really are the backbone of the Tau army, they are a more efficient way of getting round BS3 than putting a TA everywhere. Heck even the basic FW becomes useful when MLs are arround. Try pumping 24 BS5 S5 shots into something and see what happens.

But yes Tau are difficult to use Ninja builds are often your best bet in a highly competitive world where turn 1 assaults are common place. For a casual gamer that wants to win against half decent lists, hammerheads, fireknives, and markerlights should be the back bone of your list. All your FWs need DF and Kroot with hounds are your shield.

First, to each is own. I play tau because I like the models. If Lhowatt wants to play model x, y, or z, it's up to him. If he'd like specific advice on building a list around a particular model, I'll gladly help him out.

Next, to your remarks Flingitnow

(1)I started playing tau when 5th first came out. So the answer to your first interrogatory is 'yes.'

(2)You're absolutely right that the odds of the troop choices capping objectives at the end of the game are low, especially considering how much they suck compared to troop choices in other codices. It's a fact of life for the tau player. You deal with it. You suck it up on the multiple objective missions and hope to recoup on KP missions.

(3)Yes, dismounted fire warriors will die to stiff breeze. Again, fact of the codex—you deal with. However, I'm not about to double the KP value of that awful troop choice by adding a very expensive transport to ferry them around in. You reserve the fire warriors and hope they don't come in until late. I don't think fire warrior-based tau lists are good in this day and age with huge amounts of melta weapons making the rounds in so many lists. Editorial Aside: I'm speaking from the perspective of my local metagame, which is mech- and melta-heavy. If your local meta features mostly foot lists then the fire warrior/warfish setup is better. However, since I think 5th Ed. Promotes mech lists (thereby encouraging lots of melta-heavy lists) I doubt there's going to be a great divergence from any specific area. End Editorial Aside.

(4)As long as kroot are kept at leas 50% in woods and you keep away any flamer teams, they will live a good long time by going to ground for 2+ cover saves. And they cap objectives. And they're cheap. What's not to like? Besides their lack of an armor value that is. Point is they're plenty survivable provided you keep them in woods and away from flamers.

(5)I never said other configurations of Crisis Suits don't work. Just that they don't work as well. The problem with the tau codex is that your most powerful fire power is concentrated in your elite and heavy support slots. This is in stark contrast to modern (read: 5th Ed) codices which feature lots of fire power in every slot. And given that you are a ranged army that relies on high strength weapons to get the job done, you have to maximize the amount of fire power available to you. That means taking Crisis Suits in the elite slot and Broadsides in the heavy support slot. You don't have room for stealth suits, no matter how you kit them out (btw, the stealth marker team is atrociously expensive for what it does. If you want markerlights THAT bad, just go with pathfinders [more on them in a moment]). So, because you need as much fire power as you can in the constraints of only two FOC slots, you can't afford to have suicide units in either slot. That disqualifies Heatwaves. In fact, that would generally disqualify flamers and fusion blasters on crisis suits because they require you to be so close to what you want to kill. There's a caveat for plasma rifles because they're AP2 and dish out 2 shots at 12” while still being able to lay down fire at 24” out. So, that leaves missile pods and plasma rifles and burst cannons. I only like burst cannons in sub-1000 point games because they're cheap. But at higher point levels you can afford plasma and missile pods, which is what I use in this list. I use deathrains for normal crisis suits because I like my suits BS4 and long-ranged. I make the command squads fireknives because I can make them BS4 with hard-wired targeting arrays.

(6)You should take broadsides over hammerheads because they allow you take more railguns at roughly the same price. A properly kitted out hammerhead (d-pod, burst cannons, multi-tracker, railgun) runs you 165 points. Two broadsides with targeting arrays or stabilization systems runs you 160 points. Simply put, you get two railguns for 5 points less than you can get one railgun. Sure, the hammerhead has mobility and is arguably more survivable than the broadsides, but your tau—you need greater weight of firepower to overcome your enemies. Then, if you want to take the target lock, it's 10 extra points (once you add the cost of upgrading one broadside to team leader). That puts you at 5 points over the hammerhead, but you still get two railguns that can shoot at two separate targets. You could make the argument that it's a discretionary call, but I think have two for the price of one is better. Aside: yes I know that the hammerhead can shoot the submunition round, but that's actually not as good as you think, because when you shoot the submunition round, you're not using the hammerhead for the supposed reason you brought it in the first place—shooting vehicles with your S10 72” ruin-your-day railgun. So, effective for that turn, you've actually further reduced the number of railguns to which you have access. Good job. Furthermore, though you could take two hammerheads and a team of broadsides, that's just too expensive. You'll be taking points away from other slots that you need, like fast attack (whether you run piranha or pathfinders) or elites (whatever config you run) or troops (reducing the number of kroot/fire warrior/warfish you take). Any way you slice it, you just don't have the extra 330 points to squeeze for something you could just pay 160-170 points for.

(7)As for target locks on broadsides—I don't always fire at separate targets, but I'd like the option to do so if the need arises. If you don't like it, don't run it. I like it. besides—it's only 10 points. What were you gonna spend those 10 points on otherwise? I won't do a detailed analysis, but suffice it say that I think the arguments for running target locks on broadsides are superior to those arguments for running more gun drones/fire warriors/kroot/bull crap upgrades on vehicles/etc. As for them creating problems, the solution to those 'problems' is simple—play a lot of games with them so you remember to announce shooting prior to rolling dice. Simply put: play better 40k.

(8)Your analysis of pathfinders v. piranha is flawed because (a) they fulfill different roles and (b) you failed to factor in the cost of the devilfish you have to take if you take pathfinders. First, concerning the kit on piranha. You're right that the d-pod is of marginal value to the piranha. The reasoning against it is that you are either moving over 12” (in which case you get a cover save) or you're so close to the opponent so you can fire your fusion blaster that you're not going to benefit from the cover save of the d-pod. I used to think this way too, until I started playing with the piranha more and more and I realized you do need the d-pod. The reason you need the d-pod is so you can move in close, blow something up, and then not get shot to death by anything that's further away than 12”. Sure, you might get shot by something that's already close, but that means the unit which does shoot at the piranha has to take a turn away from moving upfield toward your really important units (broadsides and crisis suits) to shoot at the piranha. That accomplishes the essential goal of the piranha—to obstruct the movement of your opponent's army (primary) and (secondarily) to hopefully blow something up in the process. If they do one of those things, they've served their purpose. If they do both, you're probably winning the game. As for flechette launchers—if your opponent charges the piranha, you should laugh and thank him because you should have moved at least 7” (you should ALWAYS move more than 6” with the piranha—there's no reason not to: because they're fast vehicles and only have one weapon, you should always move at least 7” for the following reason) so that your opponent needs 6's to hit the piranha in melee. So really your opponent is better off shooting your AV 11/10 fast skimmer than he would be by charging it. So the flechettes don't really serve a purpose because you shouldn't get charged in the first place.
But, assuming you do get charged, what do the flechettes really do? They wound half (hopefully) of what charges you, who then get an armor save. Whoop-de-do. It's not really going to counter things you want to get rid of (like marines charging with thunder hammers or power fists) and the things you would want the flechettes to kill (like masses of orks or other such nonsense) isn't going to happen because hopefully the ork player won't be stupid enough to charge fast skimmers with boyz (or, if he charges with nobz or somesuch other tomfoolery, the flechettes won't do anything anyways). And generally, I try not to bank on my opponent doing stupid things. So, the only thing flechettes will help out against would be melee units with lots of attacks that have high strength or rending. That pretty much limits it to things like charging space marines with power fists (includes things like blood angels and space wolves and such), against which flechettes won't really do anything (you might kill one or two marines, and probably won't kill any terminators), maybe dark eldar (though I'm not sure why you would charge the piranha when you could just shoot it), nids (genestealers) and I can't think of anything else. So basically your wasting 20 points (that's two flechettes—one for each piranha) to counter a threat that either (a) won't materialize or (b) will be ineffective in the first place. I'll save those points and stick target locks on my broadsides, or take some extra kroot/fire warriors. So, flechettes are certainly not essential wargear for piranhas. The way I kit them (fusion blaster/d-pod on one and fusion blaster/target lock on the other) makes them relatively cheap (75 points per) and lets them shoot at two things (though admittedly that happens infrequently). So two of them taking up one FOC slot cost 150.

Compare that pathfinders. 4 pathfinders plus a naked fish is 128. Let's upgrade to a warfish (because why wouldn't you—you want your d-fish to actually do something, right?). That makes the unit 168, 18 points higher than the two piranha. Now lets add some more pathfinders (because it quickly becomes prohibitively expensive to run several units of pathfinders). So 8 pathfinders plus a warfish is 216, 66 points more than the piranha. If I run pathfinders, I usually run one at sub-2000 point games, and will sometimes run two at 2000+ point games, though usually I only run two units of 6. So that results in a unit costing anywhere between 128 (min squad plus naked fish) to 432 (two max squads plus warfishes) with the unit you actually run usually being either a single full squad plus warfish (216) or two 5-6 man squads plus a warfish (360-384 for two units) up to a max of two max squads plus warfish (432) which is also a viable option. Or you could run four-six piranha for 300-450 points. So yes, you could say that a single squad of pathfinders + warfish is cheaper than my four piranha, that would be distorting the actual situation of you having some infantry plus a warfish or four fast skimmers. I'm not saying either is necessarily better ( I happen to THINK piranha are a wiser choice) because they fulfill different roles. But you get more piranha for the points value. Plus it has been my experience that pathfinders quickly die or become combat ineffective once your opponent realizes how good they are (and markerlights are some kinda good). That one really is at the discretion of the gamer.

(9)I've already addressed the stealth marker team, so I will only talk now in passing about it. It's atrociously expensive (three stealth suits each with only a single marker drone with the team leader upgrading to carry a markerlight himself is 370 points for 7 marker lights. Ouch!) and they take up a FOC slot that really should exclusively reserved for crisis suits because, again, you're tau—you need lots and lots of firepower and the stealth marker units just don't fulfill that role.

(10)As for markerlights in general—they're very good, and they nicely supplement the tau army, but they're certainly not essential. It's far more points efficient to put targeting arrays everywhere if you want to overcome BS3 (11 targeting arrays = 110 points, whereas a full unit of pathfinders plus even a naked fish is 176 points). Now, they do nuke cover saves, which is by far their more useful function, and yes, you can have markerlights all over the place. But simply put, they're expensive and go on fragile units. You can put them on fire warriors, but that doesn't make sense because you want fire warriors mounted in warfish so they can claim objectives. You can put them on stealth suits, but they're atrociously expensive. So that leaves pathfinders, which I've already discussed. So, because they're expensive and fragile I tend to leave them out of my lists. Since I've been doing that, I've noticed that I started winning more because my army no longer folds when I lose my pathfinders for a turn.

(11)Ninja builds are awful. Tau are not ninjas. Not until they get an upgrade from WS2. Although I probably shouldn't pass judgment yet because our definitions of 'ninja' builds are probably different. Tau are basically a gun line army that has to find its way in 5th edition, where gun lines aren't as good as they used to be. Oh, and I've never been assaulted on turn one. Ever. I admit I haven't played against blood angels or dark eldar since their new codices, but I've never been assaulted turn one. If you do get assaulted turn one, it's probably your fault for deploying poorly. Besides, that's what kroot are for—to stop your opponent from charging your important things (suits). And that's what piranha are for—physically blocking your opponent from charging even your kroot.

(12)Well, I know this is a long post, but I hope it helps.

I think 11 sums up your environment. You've never been assaulted in turn 1? You've never played against Vanilla marines? Or Raven guard? You think there is somewhere to deploy to avoid a turn 1 assault?!?! Where pray tell given the most common SM turn 1 assaulters have a 45" charge range from their point of deployment? 42" for Orks. Literally anywhere for Ravenguard.

You also seems confused on flechettes. On 2 piranhas you should cause roughly a wound on every model assaulting you. Remember it is a 4+ for each Piranha assaulted. So on 5 you annihilate anything that assaults you, man is that an expensive unit but funny if 30 Ork boys assault you and you pick up 150 dice that wound on a 4+.

By ninja builds I mean builds where you deploy nothing. In a game where turn 1 assaults are common place gunlines can't and don't work. Castling can only do so much. Ninja builds allow you to choose how and where to fight but yes they have serious draw backs. Give me 2 Landspeeder Storms and I will table any gunline Tau.

The idea that you can keep your kroot in woods (terrain specific I know lots of tables with literally no woods) and away from flamers is hopeful to say the least. Likewise those walking FWs won't get near any objectives in seize ground and even if they come on turn 5 will probably be dead by the end of it if you went first. That is why you don't factor in the DF to the pathfinders cost, because you need to take them anyway. Thus you just get a better one for the same points and you can take pathfinders as well.

Suicide suits can work and yes Stealth marker teams are points sinks but in larger games when you could well be filling out the HQ suit options they are viable. Though the team you describe is only 280 not 370 points. Still a steep cost though.

So.... much.... text....

I say, don't worry about how bad the Tau codex is.

There is only so far you can go with a bad codex list-wise. How you play the game as Tau is just as important, if not more. Stop killing my eyes lol O.O

I've been assaulted T-1 by deffkoptas. I hate them so much.

I find ninja-Tau very viable, mainly when the board is loaded with terrian. 24 gun drones and maxed out crisis suits jumping in front of and behind walls can work really well... depending.

I'm surprised at all the hate against fire-warriors. I find them more viable than kroot. There AP can negated the saves of some basic troops, and the strengths is high enough to take out light vehicles if necessary, and guarantee many wounds. Not saying they are good by any means, but they aren't as horrible as people make them out to be.

I'm also surprised that you don't like D-fish...

oh well.

1.Biker armies aren't popular in my area. There's one guy with a space marine biker army, but the advent of biker command squads might change that. But mostly the space marine armies in the area are a mix of things. There's a White Scars guy, several space wolves and blood angels lists that vary, dark eldar, etc. But bikes aren't big in the area, so no, I've never been charged turn one. There are no Ravenguard lists in the area because the local gamers play good armies.

2.I'm pretty sure that's not how flechette launchers work. It is a 4+ wound if the model charges the piranha, but I don't believe you can charge multiple vehicles with a single model, so therefore you only roll for each model charging the piranha, not for each piranha in the squad. But if the way you say it works is how it works, then they're better, but I still wouldn't run them because I don't think they'll do anything because your opponent is never going to charge the piranhas anyway. And if there is a situation where they would charge it, the piranha will probably die anyways. Either way, it does nothing. I probably wouldn't put them on warfish or hammerheads either.

3.Ok, in that definition of 'ninja' tau I don't disagree that such a deployment would be useful in certain circumstances. I've done it before with mixed results, but it's definitely not malum in se (to use a little Latin lingo I learned in law school).

4.As for two landspeeder storms tabling a tau gunline: I'd like to see that. :-p

5.Yeah, I forgot that a lot of tournaments don't use as much terrain as we do locally. But even in such a case you just default to meat shield, or you reserve them. It depends on the situation. But yes, their survivability varies a great deal. Including the fire warriors. I do what I can but I'm not a miracle worker. Luckily though, in most cases the opponent busies himself with targeting the important units (suits) so the troops usually escape unscathed. Besides, if the opponent is shooting at my troop choices, then he's playing into my plan to use them as a meat shield. So either way, I don't really care. Either he shoots my scoring units while my suits kill him or he the units killing him while I'm busy capping objectives. Seems good to me.

6.Your reasons for not factoring in the cost of the warfish don't wash—the absence of warfish from my list clearly indicates you CAN run tau without warfish, and I win plenty of games with my list. That's why add in the cost of the warfish because it's an inherent cost of the unit. If I could take pathfinders without taking a warfish I would totally take three full units of pathfinders in every list. But because they HAVE to take the warfish they're prohibitively expensive which is why I don't take them. I hope that's something they change in the next codex.

7.You're right about the points—my apologies. It's still a lot of points, especially compared to what you pay for a unit of crisis suits. However I wouldn't take them even at 2500 points because I want all three of those elite slots for crisis suits. My 'Ard Boyz list runs 24 suits (9 Crisis suits/6 Command suits/9 Broadsides).

8.As for suicide units: I don't think tau have the options available to them to run suicide units, except maybe piranha. The only unit that could function as an effective suicide unit would be crisis suits, but they're really too important to be 'just' a suicide unit because you only get a finite amount of them. I'm firmly of the opinion that the best unit in the codex is the crisis suit, and to waste one on a suicide mission that might not even work seems to me to be folly.

@The Bringer

1.You're definitely spot on with your first point. With tau, listbuilding is only half the battle (really only about 1/3 the battle because of the limited number of good choices in the codex) so the way you play the army is going to matter a great deal.

2.Sorry about the sheer amount of text. I went back and broke up my last post by paragraphs. Hope that helps.

3.I just remembered—I too have been assaulted by deffkoptas on turn one before. So my prior assertion that I hadn't been assaulted turn one was incorrect. That was the game I learned to quit taking devilfish.

4.Not really, though I like gun drones.

5.Fire warriors are over-priced for what they do (killing infantry), plain and simple. Their AP isn't low enough to be effective against MEQ's and the AP doesn't matter against GEQ's because they'll either (usually) have cover saves or they're mounted. They definitely aren't guaranteed unsaved wounds against anything other than guardsmen in the open (and if that happens you should be winning anyways). They might not be as bad I make them out to be, but only because I make them out to be pretty bad. All fire warriors are is a 60 point upgrade to a devilfish to make it a scoring unit. And I don't play devilfish. Kroot serve a different role, but even if they didn't I'd take them over fire warriors because they're cheaper.

6.I actually love devilfish (specifically warfish—SMART missile system, d-pod, targeting array, multi-tracker). I even love the model. Same thing with the hammerhead. The hammerhead was actually the model that got me to play tau. But the fact of the matter is that its not efficient. A warfish is 120 points, 180 once you factor in six useless fire warriors. An IG melta wagon is 155 points, 25 points less and much more useful. It is what it is—an overpriced gunship that can cap objectives.

1. Bikes armies aren't great at assaulting in turn 1. Scout bikers can, but they're not a great choice for it. But any decent Vanilla marine lists and most Ork lists should be assaulting you in turn 1.

2. Each model assaults the entire squadron now in 5th Ed as hits can be allocated by you through out the squad thus they are assault each vehicle within the squad. So yes that is how they work.

3. It is something you have to build the army for, in order that it can be effective.

4. Have you ever faced Landspeeder storms? Given that you haven't been assaulted in turn 1 I guarantee that is a no.

5. Then your opponents aren't very bright. With such fragile troops choices any half clued up opponent will target them and prevent you from having any chance of winning...

6. You can run them with Devilfish, you just can't win against decent players without devilfish...

7. Fair enough, I'm not going to say they are a great choice. But they are a decent choice and a viable option. Personally I too prefer to take more suits, but find the stealth marker team to be something fun to play with ever now and then.

8. Depends how you play. The crisis suit are there to do damage, and a cheap suicide unit deepstriking in can cause you opponent problems and drag him away from your main force.

Well sir, I'm thinking you and I simply have some fundamental disagreements about the tau codex so I will agree to disagree. I don't think warfish are necessary for victory with the tau codex, even against decent players. Warfish don't usually end up doing much else other than peppering some infantry and trying to cap objectives. They do serve as nice damage sponges though. I love the look on my opponents' faces when they fire three or four times at the warfish and it does nothing (because of cover saves and the like). Against vanilla marines I don't see how they should be assaulting me turn one. I mean I see it, I just don't think those lists are very good. The local marine meta features a fair mix of drop podding marines and mech marines. But I really don't see why a vanilla marine player would purposely make his list a melee list to assault me turn one, especially since the C:SM seems better as a ranged codex. If you're talking about Landspeeder Storms, though, I must apologize as the local meta plays good lists with good models, so no, I haven't encountered the Landspeeder Storm. (And I should be afraid of 5 charging Marine Scouts...why?) As for ninja tau, I've actually had a change of heart since my last post--I'm still firmly of the opinion that ninja tau is an awful idea. Tau win by shooting things. Each turn you don't have something on the table is a turn you're losing the game. I have stepped away from reserving anything in recent games, in my opinion, to my benefit. And I'm certainly not going to try and build my list around ninja'ing (I assume you're talking about the crisis commander with the Positional Relay, which is awful btw, for the above reasons I have stated in opposition to reserving anything with tau). Finally, the inherent problem with running a suicide unit (especially deepstriking) means you're either going to have to get it from your HQ or elite slot. If in your HQ slot, then it's too expensive to be of much worth is will probably only work about half the time. The same restriction applies to a unit from the elite slot, except it will be a little less expensive, but still take up an elite slot you need for three crisis suits. As for proper target priority against a tau list--that's why I like my list better than ninja lists or lists with pathfinders. In my lists there isn't any one unit that screams "kill me first!" (Except possibly the broadsides). So it can fluster an opponent, and it does sometimes. But if you run pathfinders, they're so fragile yet so destructive with markerlights that they pretty much scream 'Kill me!' I prefer to make my opponent sweat over target priority.

The discourse has been enjoyable, but I must return to my studies. @Lhowatt: keep playing and enjoy the game. Whatever list you pick, play with it a lot and learn the ins and outs of it, because that's really the only way you'll win games. And always seek out players who are better than you are--you learn more by losing than by winning.

Knute

Paragraphs! They are a useful tool!

hmm..

Earlier on it seemed as though you though warfish were not a necessary tool...

I would agree that they save your butt hands down. And once you get a devilish for your fire-warriors, a pathfinder team is right around the corner. It seems like in a previous post you didn't think they were necessary, but for 12 points a model, if you already have devilish, I would consider them necessary.

Negating cover being one of the most important reasons, of course followed by the obvious BS increase. But really, they are so cheap (if you get devilfish already) I think a player should always try and find the points for them.

I completely agree with Knute's last post.

You will probably lose for many games in a row (unless you are very tactically inclined), and so don't sweat it. Every victory you get can count as 5 moral victories

(And I should be afraid of 5 charging Marine Scouts...why?)

Are you afraid of 20 Ork boyz charging? Because 5 scouts out of a LSS will nail 20 Ork boyz in assault and will certainly nail any unit in the Tau codex. 2 flame templates 4 BP shots 16 S4 attacks hitting on a 3 and 4 S8 PF attacks hiting on a 3 will nail anything in your lists.

This sort of sums it up. LSSs are the 2nd best thing in the Vanilla codex behind Assault Terminators. We see them in most dece3nt Vanilla lists after I started using them. Same on this forum there were people that wrote them off and then they tried them and most now swear by them. Particularly against Tau but against any gunline they can win you the game on their own.

@Bringer: I just don't think they're the awesomesauce. At higher point levels I sometimes take them, but only because I take pathfinders in some of my high point lists. At 1750 I think they're too expensive. At 2000 points they're alright. I like the warfish, I just think it's not your best choice. And I think the markerlights important ability is nuking cover saves. I almost never use it to increase BS (because I take targeting arrays).

@Flingitnow: I think you just sold me on the LSS. I assume the makeup of the squad you just outlined is as follows:

1 LSS
-Heavy Flamer
4 Scouts
-BP/CCW
1 Sergeant
-Powerfist
-Combi-flamer

For a total of 170 points. That actually only clocks in at 12 S4 attacks hitting at 3's against tau, but against everything else you'll be hitting on 4's, with 3 PF attacks (the combi-flamer is a bolter, so you don't get +1 for two CCW's) hitting usually on 3's, but hitting on 4's against MEQ's and Orks. They seem decent, especially if you take a pair of them, but a little on the expensive side, situational and definitely a suicide unit. Still, I can see why you'd be inured to such a unit, especially since it's scoring. I accept your assertion. However the most it will do against me will probably be eat a unit (or two) of kroot before I kill them and the LSS. But still useful. Meh, now I'm rambling. Back to work...

Yeah thats the config I DP in Pedro myself with sternguard so they get 4 attacks each on the charge.

Situational? Perhaps but from outflank they have a 21" threat range and on the turn 1 charge it is 45". By going duel flamer they can handle horde against Tau you can potentially maul 2 units. -2 Ld on the charge helps too so you break you renemy on that charge. Then you should either sweep or chase off the board from their deployment zone they should be gone no matter what. They should nail any unit that is primarily a shooting unit and obviously wreck battle tanks like nobodies business. In general against anything except guardsmen they hit just as hard as 5 assault marines with PF in the same situation and have a better delivery system 2 flamer templates and -2 Ld on the target.

There are very few armies where they don't have good targets. Having 2 units also causes your opponent problems as he has 4 targets to deal with. It means you can gang up both squads if there are no soft targets or really ruin someone day if they have a few. Against gunline Tau they are pretty much broken.