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I recently (Dec 18) won an ebay auction. The delivery date was up to Jan5. It never arrived, and I filed a complaint with ebay. It turns out the seller informed me that security on packages from Europe was being heavily scrutinized and I should be patient. After another two weeks the package was still listed in the same place. I told ebay I wanted my money back, which was credited to my account within 48 hours.
I finally got to delete about 30 emails between me, ebay, and seller and then I got this email:

Hello:
I recived a update from the post office today
telling us the post service started to work
normally with usa this monday.
I know you recive the refund this week but i hope
you will pay us again when you already recive the
item
Please contact me when it arrives.

Am i responsible to accept the item? Am I obligated to mail it back? Can I refuse package totally and return to sender?

Another problem is now this is not protected by ebay purchases.

What would you do?

RB

When the package arrives, keep it and resend the payment.

But that's me.

I am assuming that if you bought it off ebay, it's something you need/want. It may have taken a little longer to arrive, but you still got what you wanted.

Blue Orphen wrote:When the package arrives, keep it and resend the payment.

But that's me.

I am assuming that if you bought it off ebay, it's something you need/want. It may have taken a little longer to arrive, but you still got what you wanted.

Agreed

Yep, what they said.

Yeah, if it showed up, you are obligated to pay for it. That or return it to them. I do not see any reason you should keep it and keep a refund.

i'd pay it. there is no way he can force you to as you've already gotten the refund but it is the right thing to do and certainly fair (you judged the item to be worth that same price earlier).

RB wrote:I recently (Dec 18) won an ebay auction. The delivery date was up to Jan5. It never arrived, and I filed a complaint with ebay. It turns out the seller informed me that security on packages from Europe was being heavily scrutinized and I should be patient. After another two weeks the package was still listed in the same place. I told ebay I wanted my money back, which was credited to my account within 48 hours.
I finally got to delete about 30 emails between me, ebay, and seller and then I got this email:

Hello:
I recived a update from the post office today
telling us the post service started to work
normally with usa this monday.
I know you recive the refund this week but i hope
you will pay us again when you already recive the
item
Please contact me when it arrives.

Am i responsible to accept the item? Am I obligated to mail it back? Can I refuse package totally and return to sender?

Another problem is now this is not protected by ebay purchases.

What would you do?

RB

You are under no obligation to the seller.

if you still need the items in question you can pay for them.

I'm a suspicious basket though, check the post marks to see when your items were actually posted/hit the US.

I would pay it again, assuming it survives the shipping experience and you get what you bought.

-P

If you want it, resend the payment once the product arrives.
If you don't want it, communicate this or mark the package as return to sender, which might be expensive if it's from Europe.

Mr. Burning wrote:

RB wrote:I recently (Dec 18) won an ebay auction. The delivery date was up to Jan5. It never arrived, and I filed a complaint with ebay. It turns out the seller informed me that security on packages from Europe was being heavily scrutinized and I should be patient. After another two weeks the package was still listed in the same place. I told ebay I wanted my money back, which was credited to my account within 48 hours.
I finally got to delete about 30 emails between me, ebay, and seller and then I got this email:

Hello:
I recived a update from the post office today
telling us the post service started to work
normally with usa this monday.
I know you recive the refund this week but i hope
you will pay us again when you already recive the
item
Please contact me when it arrives.

Am i responsible to accept the item? Am I obligated to mail it back? Can I refuse package totally and return to sender?

Another problem is now this is not protected by ebay purchases.

What would you do?

RB

You are under no obligation to the seller.

if you still need the items in question you can pay for them.

I'm a suspicious basket though, check the post marks to see when your items were actually posted/hit the US.

^^ This.

Despite what Chapterhouse said, you are not obliged to pay the sender because the contract to do so failed when it did not arrive by the stated delivery date.

Under UK law, if a package is sent unsolicited, the receiver is not obliged to inform the sender and the goods become his after six months if not requested back by the sender.

If the package was unsolicited, and you inform the sender, and he doesn't retrieve them, they become yours after three months. In effect they are treated as a gift.

In this case, the package is effectively unsolicited because the sender knows the contact is void. He can ask for it back and he has to pay you the postage.

If he wants to ask you to pay anyway, that is fine, but you are not obliged to.

On the whole though, if the goods are what you wanted and are in good condition, I should simply pay and keep them. I think the sender was just badly organised for sending parcels around Christmas.

Mr. Burning wrote:I'm a suspicious basket though, check the post marks to see when your items were actually posted/hit the US.

Never ordered anything from the UK though, but I get packages on a regular basis from my grandparents in Germany. There are often times where a package arrives 6-7 weeks after it was send, with no indication about what caused the holdup.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:Despite what Chapterhouse said, you are not obliged to pay the sender because the contract to do so failed when it did not arrive by the stated delivery date.

Under UK law, if a package is sent unsolicited, the receiver is not obliged to inform the sender and the goods become his after six months if not requested back by the sender.

If the package was unsolicited, and you inform the sender, and he doesn't retrieve them, they become yours after three months. In effect they are treated as a gift.

In this case, the package is effectively unsolicited because the sender knows the contact is void. He can ask for it back and he has to pay you the postage.

If he wants to ask you to pay anyway, that is fine, but you are not obliged to.

I think this could potentially be some very bad advice. If the package was postmarked prior to you canceling the deal through eBay, then the package was solicited. You cannot un-solicit a package halfway through transit and then keep what you ordered without paying for it. If that was the case we would all be ordering stuff from Forgeworld all the time, then contest the charge on our credit cards, and then keep the "unsolicited packages" without paying.

Now if the package was postmarked after you canceled the order the quoted point is valid.

On the whole though, if the goods are what you wanted and are in good condition, I should simply pay and keep them. I think the sender was just badly organised for sending parcels around Christmas.

What the heck

The sender was badly organized for sending a parcel around Christmas? Why is he badly organized for sending an item that was ordered around Christmas? If nothing else I think it should be a lesson to everyone to not order anything time sensitive via international mail during the busiest time for postal services around the world.

Post goes to hell over xmas. I had several customers not receive orders posted in second half of December.

Delays are to be expected that time of year.

A bit off topic, but was it supposed to be a white dwarf subscription model?

I have a friend who sold one before christmas and the problems he's had are very similar to what you describe!

I would check the shipment to ensure it has everything it is supposed to, and it in the condition the seller stated in the auction. Because thats what you agreed to. I can see doing somehing a little different if it was time sensitive and seller knew this, but thats something very delicate that you would have to negotiate with seller. Other than that, if the stuff is cool pay up. Pay it forward, dude.

It's pretty simple - if the seller actually shipped on time, and the delay actually was out of his control, you pay him.

I had something similar happen a while back. I ordered some boyz off of Ebay, and got a mail the next day saying they were mailed (from within the US, so should only be a week).

3 weeks later, the clock is ticking for a dispute. I send him an email 3 times that week, no response. I open a dispute, and he ignores it. A week with no answer, the dispute is resolved in my favor, and I get refunded.

The next day he says he's sorry that he is so late in sending them (apparently he lied when he said he sent them the first time), but he sent them this morning, and when they arrive, will he pay me again? I tell him that we have no business with each other and not to contact me again, which he did not.

About 2 weeks later, the Boyz arrived. I did not re-pay him, nor return them, nor feel bad about it. We had agreed to a transaction within a set timeframe. I paid in a prompt manner, and he did not fulfill his end of the contract, this voiding it. I didn't feel in the wrong in keeping them because legally, at this point they were an unsolicited gift and morally, I felt I had no onus to send them back at my own expense.

If this was an overseas seller, then I'd have a different perspective, as I fully expect a month for anything to arrive from China or Poland, but if live 3 states away and you take my money and can't get my product to me in the initial 5 weeks, nor did you feel like responding to me, then I'm not going to feel bad if it didn't work out for you. If that makes me a scammer, then I'm a scammer, I guess.

I agree with the first few responses.

Check the ship date. If it was shipped on time, and it was just help up by the post office, then you should pay for the items. He technically fulfilled his obligation to ship the items to you, but through unforeseen circumstances it was delayed. The fault is with the shipping organization, not the seller.

In short, pay for the items or ship them back. Either way you have to shell out some money, might as well be for something you wanted in the first place.

Cheers

I thank you all for your input, though quite a mishmash on how this should be concluded.
For the record I am not paying despite the the ship date. Reasoning is, even Ebay thinks I was in the right to demand repayment.
I will not pay pay for shipping back to seller because now they mean nothing to me. So I guess that means refusing delivery.

Thanks for all the comments, RB

RB wrote: For the record I am not paying despite the the ship date. Reasoning is, even Ebay thinks I was in the right to demand repayment.
I will not pay pay for shipping back to seller because now they mean nothing to me.

So I guess that means refusing delivery.

Note to self, don't ever deal with RB...

Yeah, refusing delivery / return to sender - that's about only moral / ethical answer here.

RB wrote:I thank you all for your input, though quite a mishmash on how this should be concluded.
For the record I am not paying despite the the ship date. Reasoning is, even Ebay thinks I was in the right to demand repayment.
I will not pay pay for shipping back to seller because now they mean nothing to me. So I guess that means refusing delivery.

Thanks for all the comments, RB

Yeah, if I was the seller I would add a negative rating for you on eBay then.

International shipping is hell anyway, goes even more to hell around the holidays, and if you watched any news at all you probably would have realized that during that time there was a major snow storm that shut down the airports in the UK, meaning the postal service went even more to hell.

Sounds like he lived up on his end of the deal, delivery was delayed by circumstances clearly out of his control, and you received what you initially paid for.

Just because eBay thought you were right, that does not mean that the seller was wrong. It probably just means that he did not have a receipt for the original ship date. Without a receipt (I have zero receipts for shipping stuff) he could not prove to eBay that he did live up on his end of the deal. It does not mean he was wrong, it just means he could not prove that he wasn't wrong.

Make sure the item is OK and pay again. Seems fair to me.

d-usa wrote:

RB wrote:I thank you all for your input, though quite a mishmash on how this should be concluded.
For the record I am not paying despite the the ship date. Reasoning is, even Ebay thinks I was in the right to demand repayment.
I will not pay pay for shipping back to seller because now they mean nothing to me. So I guess that means refusing delivery.

Thanks for all the comments, RB

Yeah, if I was the seller I would add a negative rating for you on eBay then.

International shipping is hell anyway, goes even more to hell around the holidays, and if you watched any news at all you probably would have realized that during that time there was a major snow storm that shut down the airports in the UK, meaning the postal service went even more to hell.

Sounds like he lived up on his end of the deal, delivery was delayed by circumstances clearly out of his control, and you received what you initially paid for.

Just because eBay thought you were right, that does not mean that the seller was wrong. It probably just means that he did not have a receipt for the original ship date. Without a receipt (I have zero receipts for shipping stuff) he could not prove to eBay that he did live up on his end of the deal. It does not mean he was wrong, it just means he could not prove that he wasn't wrong.

ebay doesn't care about the ship date, only about proof of delivery. for international packages, this is very expensive usually and most sellers don't use it. in addition, sellers can NOT leave buyers bad feedback for the past two years due to a ridiculous change in policy by ebay; you could literally scam a dozen sellers and your ebay rating would show nothing. the overwhelming response in this thread is that the moral/right thing to do is to pay the seller if the delay is not his fault; RB has chosen NOT to do this and (like Hwang) i'm putting him on my personal blacklist for swap shop transactions. Ebay is very ANTI-seller as evidenced by the above; using their ridiculous processes to justify keeping something that you didn't pay for and was possibly shipped in full faith and effort is stealing in my book. the situation ouze describes is different, however. if the seller clearly lies about shipping it then he hasn't fulfilled his end of the bargain and you could keep it despite a refund after the allotted time.

warboss wrote:ebay doesn't care about the ship date, only about proof of delivery. for international packages, this is very expensive usually and most sellers don't use it. in addition, sellers can NOT leave buyers bad feedback for the past two years due to a ridiculous change in policy by ebay; you could literally scam a dozen sellers and your ebay rating would show nothing. the overwhelming response in this thread is that the moral/right thing to do is to pay the seller if the delay is not his fault; RB has chosen NOT to do this and (like Hwang) i'm putting him on my personal blacklist for swap shop transactions. Ebay is very ANTI-seller as evidenced by the above; using their ridiculous processes to justify keeping something that you didn't pay for and was possibly shipped in full faith and effort is stealing in my book. the situation ouze describes is different, however. if the seller clearly lies about shipping it then he hasn't fulfilled his end of the bargain and you could keep it despite a refund after the allotted time.

That is nuts,

I have not sold anything for a long time on eBay, I used to sell MtG cards in 2000-2002, I think we were able to leave ratings on buyers at that time...

JohnHwangDD wrote:

RB wrote: For the record I am not paying despite the the ship date. Reasoning is, even Ebay thinks I was in the right to demand repayment.
I will not pay pay for shipping back to seller because now they mean nothing to me.

So I guess that means refusing delivery.

Note to self, don't ever deal with RB...

Yeah, refusing delivery / return to sender - that's about only moral / ethical answer here.

I feel cut to the bone. JohnHwangDD won't deal with me. I have been dealing on Bartertown and Ebay since 1998 with hundreds of deals. Never a bad, never a neutral rating. I have been given high ratings for all my sales, buys, and trades. I have made a decision on how to deal with one out of hundreds and it bothers me that the reaction is so negative. Well don't worry JohnHwangDD I won't be dealing with you or warboss either.

RB

Refuse delivery / Return to sender seems fair to me. The only action I would frown upon is keeping it and not paying.

RB wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

RB wrote: For the record I am not paying despite the the ship date. Reasoning is, even Ebay thinks I was in the right to demand repayment.
I will not pay pay for shipping back to seller because now they mean nothing to me.

So I guess that means refusing delivery.

Note to self, don't ever deal with RB...

Yeah, refusing delivery / return to sender - that's about only moral / ethical answer here.

I feel cut to the bone. JohnHwangDD won't deal with me. I have been dealing on Bartertown and Ebay since 1998 with hundreds of deals. Never a bad, never a neutral rating. I have been given high ratings for all my sales, buys, and trades. I have made a decision on how to deal with one out of hundreds and it bothers me that the reaction is so negative. Well don't worry JohnHwangDD I won't be dealing with you or warboss either.

RB

The reason it's so negative is that you're taking something without paying for it.

To most of us, that's STEALING.

And hiding around some eBay ruling - that's just lawyer-ball. Weaksauce.

How about you be a man, step up, and pay for what you get?

First off I don't need you yelling. Second I'm stating a fact of what Ebay thought and did. Lastly I never stated I would keep this item, I stated:

I will not pay pay for shipping back to seller because now they mean nothing to me. So I guess that means refusing delivery.


Will a moderator please lock this down for it will only get worse.

Thank you, RB

Personally I think you are under no obligation to do anything. You made a contract to have products on or by a certain date. Contract was breached by not getting said product in a timely fashion.
That means you could just keep the product. Really it is way past any acceptable time for a delivery.

Karma can be a beast though!

However, if you like the product you may want to pay for them out of good will as it appears that they did make a good faith effort to get the product to you.

You might also pay for the product, but refuse to pay shipping. That's probably what I would do if i still wanted the stuff.

I'm sure you could also call the shipping company and tell them you are refusing the shipment in advance, if you didn't want it at all.

It's your life handle it the way you want to.

As far as ebay, I wouldn't sweat it. The company failed and ebay agreed. If the seller gives you negative feedback ebay will probably remove it for you with a phone call.

You do have full rights to give the seller poor feedback, but if you keep the product, don't pay and give them bad feedback.....well again you are within your rights, but Karma can be a beast.

Chapterhouse has enough problems right now....I'd avoid kicking them while they are down. I wouldn't blame you for anything though.

I'm with you in the sense that somethings are time sensitive and a contract is a contract, a product delivered late is not delivered properly.

I've had similar problems not through ebay, but direct orders. I needed a laptop by a certain date as I was traveling and mine broke. Company A fell behind on shipping from warehouse and did not ship on time, failed to inform me. I called them up told them to have it here by a certain date or forget it. In the meantime, the day before my flight! I had to order another laptop off of ebay and pay expedited next day shipping to where I was having my business meeting. Received the one from ebay (exact same computer by the way). Company A's computer showed up a week later,(4 weeks after due date). I canceled the payment on my credit card, told them that I would ship it back to them if they paid for shipping and my expedited shipping ($60). They wouldn't do it. Haven't heard form them since. Now I have 2 new laptops and no regrets. I gave them plenty of chances to do their job right and they dropped the ball every time.

For me this was a real hassle, I will never do business with company A again. Without a computer my entire business trip would have been ruined, it was hard enough getting it configured and loaded with everything on time. This cost me hours of time that I feel they were responsible for.

Put the other on ebay and got more than I paid for it. Lesson: don't do business if you can't do it right.

d-usa wrote:That is nuts,

I have not sold anything for a long time on eBay, I used to sell MtG cards in 2000-2002, I think we were able to leave ratings on buyers at that time...

you used to be able to but they changed that to supposedly weed out the bad sellers because they said buyers were afraid to leave neg or neutral feedback because they'd get the same in return.... but they make no effort to weed out bad buyers. another important change is that you as the the seller are responsible for the arrival of the item regardless of what you actually write in your auction and whether it is your fault or not. sellers used to be able to separately offer insurance for $$ and state in the auction that items lost in the mail are not their responsibility; now ebay doesn't allow you to bill separately for insurance and AUTOMATICALLY adds a line that is not removable stating that the seller is responsible for the item's arrival. it's not seller friendly at all and the reason i've switched mainly to trading sites (like the swap shop here).

I had never even thought of doing a return to sender: I've never done that before. In retrospect, that would have been the best way to handle it in my situation, I think, and I wish I had done that instead.

Oh well the more you know /shootingstar