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Exactly what title says. What can we do to improve SM captains? No one ever takes them except for fluffy games.

I think one thing that could work is giving them Rites of Battle.

Maybe some form of reserve roll modifiers as they are the Captain of company.


What do you guys think?

Any new ideas?

Thats not true. Captains are not so bad what you think. They are 25pts cheaper than Chapter Masters but dont have OB. I think Captains are better than Chapter Masters cause they can move free while Chapter Master must stay still for one turn to pay for those 25pts. But if Im playing some SM special characters I play Chapter Master or I play Captain and Chapter Master.

I actually like captains for unlocking CMD squads. The main issue is that they are not very competitive when compared to Libby's or even Chaplains (depending on your list). I myself am not a WAAC player who has to play the most competitive list. But it would be nice to put together a decent list with a captain that actually does something.

You take SM captains for 2 reasons, scoring bikes (awesome btw.) and command squads, both very valid reasons.

If we're talking BA ones though...THEY need the boost as both these things are taken away from them and the chappies are even better in combat...

@Oscarius: I don't think people would take a regular captain just to take a command squad... There are loads of SCs that are much much better and are still captains. I only ever really see vanilla captains being taken in

1) under competitive lists
2) Biker armies.

I think that a Captain should have something to balance him out with the other SC's. But really the only thing that would be effective and make sense would be to make him and his options much cheaper, as giving him Rites of battle makes Sicarius even worse, and would make people wonder why the other SC captains didn't have this upgrade.


So something like this:

Captain: 75 points

Storm bolter and bolter remain the same

Combi-stuff- 5 points
Storm shield, Power weapon, Lightning Claw, Plasma Pistol - 10 points
Power fist - 15 points
Relic blade or thunder hammer- 20 points

Replace Power armor with artificer armor- 15 points
Melta bombs, and digital weapons the same
Take Helfire rounds: 5 points
Take auxiliary grenade launcher: 10 points
Replace power aromour and stuff with terminator armor and stuff- 25 points (losing your grenades really does suck... and when you already have a 4++...)
Replace term bolter with:
combi stuff- free
Lightning Claw- 10 points
Thunder hammer 15 points

Replace power sword with:
lightning claw: Free (they cost the same everywhere else... why not here?)
Power fist or storm shield- 10 points
Thunder hammer or chainfist- 15 points

If terminator armour is not chosen, you can take:
Jump pack- 25 points
Bike- 60 points (because frankly, a biker captain is already pretty great and gives a good army wide boost.)

75 point Captains? Then wouldn't the Chapter Masters have to be even cheaper if they were to stay as they are?


In my opinion Captains are fine as they are...

grayspark wrote:75 point Captains? Then wouldn't the Chapter Masters have to be even cheaper if they were to stay as they are?

Yeah they would, sorry I forgot to mention that.

But captains are hardly ever fielded, because there are so many things that are much much better than them.

Geus they could use an inspiring aura rule;

'Inspiring aura' : A space Marine captain greatly inspires his fellow brothers, as he is the example of the ways of the marines. All marine units within 6" of him receive +1 to their Ld. (to a maximum of 10)

geuss that would make a captain way better without making it too overpowered

I think they need 1 or 2 more attacks and a few more wounds. Maybe an Invun save

RutgerMan wrote:Geus they could use an inspiring aura rule;

'Inspiring aura' : A space Marine captain greatly inspires his fellow brothers, as he is the example of the ways of the marines. All marine units within 6" of him receive +1 to their Ld. (to a maximum of 10)

geuss that would make a captain way better without making it too overpowered

I think this seems like a reasonable suggestion.

DrownedRat117 wrote:I think they need 1 or 2 more attacks and a few more wounds. Maybe an Invun save

I think 4A base would be good. Invuln save is fine. They come with a 4++. The Inspiring Aura is a good idea.

I think captains are good as is. Black Templar captains(Marshals) confer Ld10 to the entire army. That's powerful enough I think!

But vanilla captains are not very good.

Gonna necro this thread back as it is my own.

So I have an idea that could make captains interesting. What if you could purchase a "company designation" for the captain that made certain units score, similar to how Pedro makes sternguard score (not troops).

Ex.

9th company Captain could make Devestators score.

1st company Captain could make terminators/assault terminators score.

8th company captain would make assault marines score.

This would be something flavorful, and could potentially make a captain something of a utility. Points cost for these "upgrades" would be something to work out.

DrownedRat117 wrote:I think they need 1 or 2 more attacks and a few more wounds. Maybe an Invun save

Captains have the Iron Halo. 4+ Invul.

The thing above is a good idea. Making one unit type scoring to expand on the Mounted Assault rule.

I agree as well, but as an upgrade option that adds to the base value of the captain. Have him start at 75 points base and add a specific unit to become scoring for 25 points, 1 unit type maximum.

Also, the Captain of 5th Company allows bikes to score whether captain is on bike or not, due to the training that all 5th company members get on bikes...?

pdawg517 wrote:But vanilla captains are not very good.

What, the four WS6 attacks at S6 I5 protected by 3+/4++, T4, 3 wounds, and WS6 for a MERE 130 points isn't good enough for you?

Ugh. Compared to what you get in Sisters or Guard, captains are UNDERpriced, not over.

Melissia wrote:

pdawg517 wrote:But vanilla captains are not very good.

What, the four WS6 attacks at S6 I5 protected by 3+/4++, T4, 3 wounds, and WS6 for a MERE 130 points isn't good enough for you?

Ugh. Compared to what you get in Sisters or Guard, captains are UNDERpriced, not over.

You're thinking of Chapter Masters, not Captains.

He's right - they're not great. They're better than Sisters and Guard because they're supposed to be but have little utility overall compared to the less hitty Librarians and Chaplains... Sisters and Guard have great army-wide utilities and surely this is a factor in their points cost.

... no, I was looking at the stats for a captain, not a chapter master.

The difference that I can see between the two is that the chapter master gets an orbital bombardment and unlocks Honor Guard.

Answer me this then? What does a captain really add to the army then other than powerfist bait. The only real use of captains currently is to unlock bikes as troops. I think my new suggestions could add utility and flavor to this underused HQ selection.

pdawg517 wrote:What does a captain really add to the army

A cheap, durable, melee powerhouse.

These upgrades should replace combat tactics for the entire army. A sacrifice made to specialize your army.

pdawg517 wrote:Answer me this then? What does a captain really add to the army then other than powerfist bait. The only real use of captains currently is to unlock bikes as troops. I think my new suggestions could add utility and flavor to this underused HQ selection.

Plenty of people use him.
It's just that the Librarian is a better support choice becuse he is primarily a support character.
If you gave the captain options for changing combat tactics then he would be more widely used.

Captains are fine, their only issue is that SM are limited to 2 HQ choices. If they had double (like Space Wolves) then they'd see a lot more use I imagine.

Why change captains at all? They are good as they are

They're kind of overpriced compared to Chaplains or Librarians, who get a free power weapon.

Gavin Thorne wrote:I agree as well, but as an upgrade option that adds to the base value of the captain. Have him start at 75 points base and add a specific unit to become scoring for 25 points, 1 unit type maximum.

I like this Idea of being able to make 1 unit a scoring unit, would it go to far to make that 1 unit count towards your troop requirment aswell? A unit of Assault Terminatora as troops in a 500 point game... nice

No to them becoming troops. It would read similar to Pedro Kantor's rule. The said unit would score but not be troops.

Melissia wrote:A cheap, durable, melee powerhouse.

These upgrades should replace combat tactics for the entire army. A sacrifice made to specialize your army.

If you call S4 and T4 for the cost of a utility character a cheap, durable, melee powerhouse then sure. :/

My big issue is that even if I don't play super competitively, captains are completely underwhelming. They are supposed to be a hero of mankind. Instead he kills 3 models and eats a powerfist from a no named Sgt. while doing absolutely nothing for your army. I think the new rules that I have come up along with an inspiring aura would make the captain somewhat of a utility character that is different than the libby and chappy.

The other alternative is to just start them really cheap and make some upgrades cheaper.

pdawg517 wrote:No to them becoming troops. It would read similar to Pedro Kantor's rule. The said unit would score but not be troops.

Melissia wrote:A cheap, durable, melee powerhouse.

These upgrades should replace combat tactics for the entire army. A sacrifice made to specialize your army.

If you call S4 and T4 for the cost of a utility character a cheap, durable, melee powerhouse then sure. :/

Try 4 WS6 S6 I5 attacks on the charge, and WS6, T4, 3 wounds, and 2+/3++ defensively for a mere 160 points. Less if you're okay with 4++.

A Canoness only get 4 WS4 S5 I4 attacks on the charge at best (or S6 I1 if you want that), and has WS4, T3, 3 wounds, and 2+/4++ defensively, for 140 points. A Lord Commissar has 5 WS5 S6 I1 attacks on the charge, and WS5, T3, 3 wounds, and 4+/5++ defensively, for 110 points. Believe me, just the stats alone are worth the 20 and 50 point differences as far as combat effectiveness. T4 over T3 by itself makes the Marine FAR more durable, especially given none of them have eternal warrior-- when was the last time your captain was instakilled by a guard powerfist or a multilaser?

The captain IS a powerful melee unit. Just got to get out of the "everything is marine" mindset.

Melissia is right, captains make a VERY effective combat unit for a cheap price. Take a relic blade and storm shield and I believe WS6 ALWAYS hits on 4+ or better on anyone it the game, In addition that sisters or guard hero will be instant killed by a failed invul versus your captain, which hits on 3s and wounds on 2s.. Captains have a good statline, but marines have alot of cheap better special characters..

Right. I wasn't comparing the captain ot other SM choices, but to non-SM codices. Where it becomes obvious that SM characters are nasty as hell in close combat, all of them.