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I do have to disagree with you Melissa,

I'll admit that bike captains are very scary, I5 relic blades and bike troopers is a pretty solid combination

That said, they do run into the same problem as chaos lords.

I play Eldar. My Autarch is the laughing stock of close combat commanders. 5 (6 on the charge) s3 power weapon attacks just doesn't cut it, especially with t3, 3+, 4++ defenses. Compared to an Autarch a Captain is a monster in close combat, especially with a relic blade.

That said nobody takes an Autarch for their close combat ability! The only reason Autarch's see any love is for master strategist. Any close combat upgrades that the Autarch is given are to take advantage of his above average (for eldar) close combat stat-line and upgrade potential.

This is true for Bike Captains as well. their close combat abilities are there to take advantage of that potential, but the reason he is taken in the first place isn't for the relic blade on a bike but to make bikes scoring.

There is a reason you don't see many Chaos Lords on the battle field. Sure the CL is a monster in close combat- especially taking demon weapons into considerations, but thats all he brings to the table. Hes still a t4 mortal who can be ID'd by a power fist.

Sure the final nails in the coffin for Chaos Lords are the fact that Demon Princes cost about the same, and are MCs with Eternal Warrior, and that Sorcerors and Princes both get access to support powers such as the mighty lash. Nurgle Princes can act as a beat stick unit because they benefit from t6, eternal warrior, and warp time, which makes them much beatier then a Lord could hope to be.

But this also holds true to the SM codex. The Chaplain can make your assault terminators or Marines re roll all their to hits, The librarian has a ton of useful powers from null zone to gate, and even unlocks psychic defenses for your army.

This isn't a game about HQs going around devastating things, and HQs that try to do that without eternal warrior or toughness 5 or 6 will just get wasted. Even the Ork Warboss, isn't taken for his close combat capabilities. Sure his s10 klaw and t5 make him durable and mightly, but the real reason he gets brought to the table is the turn of fleet, and the ability to make a nob mob scoring. These are both powerful support abilities and it is primarily for these reasons that he is included in lists.

Pretty much every competitive HQ is taken because of the support options that they give to their army. And those that are taken to be beaty generally require eternal warrior or sufficiently high toughness to get the job done. Nurgle Warptime Princes, Abbadon, Mephiston, Draigo, all spring to mind.

I can't speak for sisters, but with the imperial guard options you gave, I think there is a reason why you don't see many lord commisars. And if they are taken, its probably not for their beatyness. Orders are a much bigger part of Imperial Guard HQs then anything else- in large part due to the support role they play.

I guess if I could sum this up, is that without support abilities, most non special character HQs are not going to be worth it, and they will generally only be taken when there are no other options, or there are good fluff reasons to back them up. If Combat Capability generally is not a main consideration for whether an HQ is good or not, then comparing Combat Ability across codexes will not tell us much of anything useful about whether something is *good* or not

The SM Captain's saving grace is his synergy with Bikers. And for that he'll see use. Poor Chaos Lord.

You could always use the Captain to unlock certain things based on the command squad.

A big boost would be, taking a Captain in Terminator Armor allows you to unlocked a Terminator Command Squad. You'd probably see more Captains.

Just pointing out.. Waagh is an armywide special rule, It isn't granted by a boss, and I don't always bring a nob squad to an army, but usually bring a Warboss, The klaw is the second best AT weapon in the codex.

Captains are pretty solid with a Storm Shiled and relic Blade, sure you only get 3 attacks but you usually hitting on a 3 or 4+ and at S6.
The only reaosn I would take a Commissar Lord is to give him a camo-cloak and chuck him in wiht a 50-man squad.

I also worked out that boarding planks and warbosses with Power Klaws and attacks squigs cna be really funny if you pull it off

This is one of those posts where I really want to feel for the OP, I mean, yeah captains are a little bland, but.... its basically the military... there are a lot of captains.. even in the SM's, so yeah they are bland.
"If it ain't broke.... don't fix it."
They are just fine the way they are, they aren't unbalanced for the points, they have some viable tactical options for their points cost. It's just in how you use one. He's cheap, and you can through him into just about any squad... i usually take a captain, and thats it for my HQ, frees up almost the entire rest of the army points to add scoring units, elites, and what not.
I've been a fan of "death star" units, and high priced HQ's are even worse, I have to take at least one HQ, i'd rather take the cheapest option, and get one or two more squads on the field instead.

This guy should have been in the Codex all along. It's also a rough sample of what I think Captains should be like.

Scout Captain: The Master of a Chapters' scout company is a man who works in the deepest shadows, whose reach knows no bounds and who can be nearly unseen at will. He generally wears Scout Carapace, to better blend with his troops.

80 Points

WS: 5 BS: 5 S: 4 T: 4 W: 3 A: 2 I: 5 Ld: 10 Sv: 4+/4++

Wargear:

Carapace Armor
Frag and Krak Grenades
Storm Bolter or Bolt Pistol
Chainsword
Camo Cloak

Rules: Independent Character, And They Shall Know No Fear, Combat Tactics, Scouts, Infiltrate, Master of The Recruits

Master of The Recruits: Each Space Marine Scout Squad in an army may take a Land Speeder Storm as a dedicated transport for the normal points cost. Scout Biker squads of 5 or more may be taken as Troops.

Upgrades

Replace Chainsword or Storm Bolter with

Combi-Weapon: +5
Plasma Pistol: +10
Power Sword or Lightning Claw: +10
Power Fist or Relic Blade: +15
Thunder Hammer: +20
Stalker Pattern Boltgun and "Eye of Vengeance" rule: +35

May take

Digital Weapons: +5
Melta Bombs: +5
Locater Beacon: +5
Hellfire Rounds: +5

May ride a Space Marine Bike: +25
Replace Space Marine Bike's twin linked bolter with Astartes Grenade Launcher: +10

Have you play tested this? Just curious, I think its a little overpowered for its points. I think if you leave him as is, but tack on... 10 or 15 points. The lets makes LS Storms transports... is..... well borderline overpowered IMHO. He is a CAPTAIN after all, and even a scout SC (Telion) costs almost as much as the squad itself. But again... just my thoughts right off the top of my head.

Not yet. Just throwing the idea out. I'll be writing up my own Captain in a bit.

Also, yes, I know the Upgrade costs are cheaper than normal. They're supposed to be.

It just seems like its too much for too few points... where is the down side to this guy? just curious.

Well, the intended downside would be not being able to take a Captain or Chapter Master as your primary HQ, since I'll be improving those guys too.

ahhh i see. i think then you should limit access to just scouts as well. or very limited other options... 1 elite, 1 fast (not scout bikers) etc. maybe we you should start your own thread?

Oscarius wrote:You take SM captains for 2 reasons, scoring bikes (awesome btw.) and command squads, both very valid reasons.

If we're talking BA ones though...THEY need the boost as both these things are taken away from them and the chappies are even better in combat...

Too right. BAs are expensive and unless i put a cap in with a reclusiarch or chap they seem useless. They mos def need the re-rolls to hit on the charge. I leave my cap out more times then not because my reclu runs around with my death company. re-roll hits and wounds, woop woop!

Put up a thread for my revisions of four of the six SM HQs.

i know it is a blood angel thing, but, how come codex marine cpts can take a bike or jump pack, but, the command squad can only take bikes? maybe they make more money off bikes than the jump pack sprues you can order.

I think they just forgot that, actually.

Melissa always makes me feel like a spoiled, Space Marine brat. : (

But anyway, remember that you can give captains hellfire rounds, and then put him on a bike. That's always pretty cool.

Well, provided you have faith points, canonesses are far from bad in assault.

You could say a captain is stronger with his higher stats but even if he is, a canoness also gives two to three faith points, which I'd say is compensation more than enough.

Cannoness dies if ONE hit from that captain goes through, unless she has the Mantle of Ophelia(I think that is the name)

I find, that if you know you list well enough you can make even the most sub-par units synergise with your army. For example,

I use a captain with a decked out command squad in a rhino as a harrasment/distraction unit for when I need to tie up someone or help out in an assualt and I've never once been dissapointed with his results.

Just my two cents!

MA.

I use a captain in pretty much every game I play with my marines. I don't see anything wrong with them really. My captain(s) have been performing well. And the one I use the most was built so that I like the way it looks and ended up with a power fist and a combi-melta. He has been a useful asset in my army.

It's just a relative thing. For the same 100 points, you can either get the nice assortment of abilities from a Librarian, the Chaplain's insane CC boost, or the Captain's somewhat better profile. Thing is, the Librarian and Chappy get a power weapon for free, while the captain has to pay for his.

Lord Magnus wrote:Cannoness dies if ONE hit from that captain goes through, unless she has the Mantle of Ophelia(I think that is the name)

A Cannoness can have a 2++ invul, right?

I'd say that she's many times stronger than a Captain just for that.


Also I'd like to say that the idea for the Scout Captain earlier was pure gold.

I'd love to use an army of Land Speeder Storms, and I don't feel it'd be underpowered because it's a lot like being Dark Eldar Cept with 4+ saves!

However maybe it'd be nice to take those Storms in squadrons, so that you can take a 10 man Scout Squad and Combat Squad them.

How many points is a well equipped succubus on average?

Update to the Scout Captain from earlier.

Master of The Recruits: Each Space Marine Scout Squad in an army may take a Land Speeder Storm as a dedicated transport for the normal points cost. Scout Biker squads of 5 or more may be taken as Troops. If a Scout Squad consists of 10 models, the squad may take two Land Speeder Storms. These may either be fielded as a squadron, or attached one per group of five via the Combat Squads rule.

Vanilla Captains seem okay to me. I like taking them every once in a while. Some power fist captains I've run have done they're job of taking some stuff down in assault. Its worth the 125 pts I think. Even without a powerfist i think the captain is pretty formidable with their statline.