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Hey guys,

I'm new to Guard, i'v yet to play a game with them but i want to know your thoughts on how i should arm them. For example, i have a LR Punisher and i have friends that play Orks and Tyranids so it's ideal for taking on hordes. But what should i give on it's sponsons? lascannons for taking out ocassional big monsters / vehicles that crop up? or even more anti-infantry stuff to get them job done and leave the big guns to my heavy weapon platoons? I guess what i really want to know is, should you specialise a unit completely for a certain role, or make them a more watered down mix but capable of taking on all comers?

Simpler the better and you want to have the a unit focus on one role as much as possible. In your case, you can use a heavy bolter to add more shots.

You want the big guns on another unit as you'll be firing on one target with those weapons rendering the punisher turret useless to lascannon targets.

h0r0 wrote:Simpler the better and you want to have the a unit focus on one role as much as possible. In your case, you can use a heavy bolter to add more shots.

You want the big guns on another unit as you'll be firing on one target with those weapons rendering the punisher turret useless to lascannon targets.

This. But if you want my opinion on some good units.

Hellhound Category: The Bane Wolf is the best here IMO, same points and arm with the Heavy Flamer or Multi Melta, you are flaming heavy infantry, so the Heavy Bolter is pretty useless
Artillery: Medusa or Manticore, Medusa is great against tanks and heavy infantry whilst the Manticore is immense against hordes.
LR: I go for the Eradicator, my Medusa's ruin heavy infantry so this is for stuff like Scouts in cover, menial units that are easy KP's. I also stick with Plasma Cannon sponsons and a heavy bolter.
Sentinals and Heavy Weapon Teams: always have Missile Launchers as they are so versatile.

Thanks for the tips guys, specialisation it is then. So phantom, if my Heavy Weapon Squads were out to nail tanks, would it not be best to give them lascannons?

Since Tyranids don't have vehicles it's best to give 2 shot autocannons over 1 shot lascannons. Same with Orks since much of their armor isn't above 12.

sphynx wrote:Thanks for the tips guys, specialisation it is then. So phantom, if my Heavy Weapon Squads were out to nail tanks, would it not be best to give them lascannons?

Orks and Tyranids don't have tanks. If you're worried about a Battlewagon, try to get side armor shots on it. A Vendetta in your army would give you the best lascannons in the IG list and also make it easier to get those side shots.

my opinion on the matter, I'm not a tournament player due to my crappy job, but heres my two cents.

I usually take two of the good old LR Battle cannon tanks. S8 AP3 large blast, Ordinance, 72" range, is a beautiful thing =) Throw some plasma sponsons on it and find a good spot to fire away. S and AP to kill marines and dropping three templates tends to remove a good number of horde models as well. Lumbering Behemoth for the LR means that cannon is a constant threat.

The griffon is nice for its points, it re-rolls scatter, large blast, and can ignore some cover saves. Though I like the medusa myself, but most of the players in my local group know to hate my medusa tanks, so they get shot to hell.

For heavy weapon squads, I almost always go for 3 missile launchers. Get them in range of a commander that can order "bring it down" and then there twin linked. gives you blast templates if needed.

I would only use a vendetta to fill your need of lascannons. as its only 25 points more then a heavy weapons team with 3 lascannons. it has mobility, can deep strike (so it can shoot the turn it enters play), can carry troops, has extra armor for free, and its guns are all twin linked. It can move flat out for a cover save and get in a better position to throw out some pain.

Have you considered getting Pask? He might cost a third of a regular LRBT but he can increase the chances of getting hits on with that Punisher. If you're playing against horde armies, the Demolisher might be a better choice, although it'll be high on your enemies priority list. It's cheaper, more reliable and a large blast almost guarantees a hit. Lumbering Behemoth works wonders on the Demolisher.

I'll say that Manticores are money as far as artillery is concerned. I run 2 in most of my lists and they are magical. D3 str 10 ap4 large blast? yes please! Good against hordes, good against vehicles, and even termies will flinch if you get enough direct hits to make them roll 1s.

@ A Musketeer
Isnt there some where in the rule book where if its a hit where the S is double the T they dont get a regular armor save?

Igenstilch wrote:@ A Musketeer
Isnt there some where in the rule book where if its a hit where the S is double the T they dont get a regular armor save?

No. Common mistake by new players, no offence.

If a model with more than 1 wound is hit by an attack that has a S of double their T, they will lose all their wounds at once if they fail their save. This is called the instant death rule. Certain heroic or demonic models are immune to this effect (the eternal warrior rule). Whether or not armour saves can be taken is still only determined by the weapon's AP value.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:

Igenstilch wrote:@ A Musketeer
Isnt there some where in the rule book where if its a hit where the S is double the T they dont get a regular armor save?

No. Common mistake by new players, no offence.

If a model with more than 1 wound is hit by an attack that has a S of double their T, they will lose all their wounds at once if they fail their save. This is called the instant death rule. Certain heroic or demonic models are immune to this effect (the eternal warrior rule). Whether or not armour saves can be taken is still only determined by the weapon's AP value.

kk, saw some conversation on it the other day, i had never seen it in the rule book, or in play, so i figured i would ask.

Igenstilch wrote:

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:

Igenstilch wrote:@ A Musketeer
Isnt there some where in the rule book where if its a hit where the S is double the T they dont get a regular armor save?

No. Common mistake by new players, no offence.

If a model with more than 1 wound is hit by an attack that has a S of double their T, they will lose all their wounds at once if they fail their save. This is called the instant death rule. Certain heroic or demonic models are immune to this effect (the eternal warrior rule). Whether or not armour saves can be taken is still only determined by the weapon's AP value.

kk, saw some conversation on it the other day, i had never seen it in the rule book, or in play, so i figured i would ask.

Using a weapon that has a strength that is at least double the toughness value of a target model also allows you to ignore the benefits of Feel No Pain. So a S6 or better weapon is great against Dark Eldar, especially if your weapon is AP4 or better. The only models that can shrug it off are Incubi and models with Shadow Fields.

JB wrote:
The only models that can shrug it off are Incubi and models with Shadow Fields. :

nitpicking I know, but the Talos and Cronos will still get their FNP saves unless you are using AP2 or power weapons

Exergy wrote:

JB wrote:
The only models that can shrug it off are Incubi and models with Shadow Fields. :

nitpicking I know, but the Talos and Cronos will still get their FNP saves unless you are using AP2 or power weapons

True, but I was only concerned about the infantry sized models. Dang near every large model has T4 or better.

Igenstilch wrote:@ A Musketeer
Isnt there some where in the rule book where if its a hit where the S is double the T they dont get a regular armor save?

Then again, if the strength is double regular MEQ toughness, it should have AP low enough to penetrate the armor.

The KISS- principle is the IG motto. Do not fall for the "pimp my tank" scheme. Two regular stock LR- tanks are better than one supertank with all the bells and whistles in the book. The reason is simple: that one supertank will attract all the anti-tank fire of the enemy army all by itself. But two ( or better yet three ) tanks force him to split his fire and thus greatly improves your tanks chances of survival.

Spare the points that would go into fancy upgrades ( sponsons etc. ) for more guys and more guns.

A-P wrote: The KISS- principle is the IG motto. Do not fall for the "pimp my tank" scheme. Two regular stock LR- tanks are better than one supertank with all the bells and whistles in the book. The reason is simple: that one supertank will attract all the anti-tank fire of the enemy army all by itself. But two ( or better yet three ) tanks force him to split his fire and thus greatly improves your tanks chances of survival.

Spare the points that would go into fancy upgrades ( sponsons etc. ) for more guys and more guns.

True word. Example is plasma sponsons on a leman russ tank. These are a very good upgrade, I can see the appeal. But at the end of the day, it's better to field as many units/tanks as possible, each with enough guns to be a threat, then load it all onto one tank. After all a 230 point executioner with plasma sponsons is just as easy to blow up as a 165 point demolisher.

I like my triple heavy bolter sponsons on my standard LRBT. They are fairly cheap and keeps the tank a potent threat even after losing the battlecannon. It's also an ok synergy since a LRBT is almost always used as an anti infantery vehicle.

Other than that I agree, dont spend too much on upgrades and buy more tanks instead. You can play around with pask in the punisher or try him in an exterminator and see if you think he's worth the points.

Thanks guys, more tanks than upgrades understood, money isn't an issue. I can see the appeal of missile launchers too and i do intend to get a Valkyrie. Thanks a lot guys, just as helpful as ever.

Do not get into the pitfall of getting sponsons for Valks though. Get the Multiple Rocket Pods because they're defensive weapons then scoot around at 12" firing everything.

Competitive players will say dont take sponsons. You have the choice of taking 2 leman russ with upgrades, or 3 without.

You want your tanks to be constantly moving to make hitting them in melee a nightmare, and leman russ will still be able to fire both guns if moving at combat speed.

If your gunline sit still and shoot then take sponsons, they are in fact worth it

@ Jaon. Well you sold me there, guess i wont be buying upgrades on my tanks the next few games.

phantommaster wrote:Hellhound Category: The Bane Wolf is the best here IMO, same points and arm with the Heavy Flamer or Multi Melta, you are flaming heavy infantry, so the Heavy Bolter is pretty useless

I wouldn't say the Bane Wolf is best here, since it basically gets one shot before being annihilated. The gun is brutal, but it's just too short range to be anything except a one-shot intimidation weapon.

LR: I go for the Eradicator, my Medusa's ruin heavy infantry so this is for stuff like Scouts in cover, menial units that are easy KP's. I also stick with Plasma Cannon sponsons and a heavy bolter.

The Eradicator is a waste of a heavy support slot. Guard has no shortage of stuff to deal with scouts in cover (like the heavy flamers on the hulls of almost every tank). Taking it with plasma sponsons makes it an even stupider choice, since now you're mixing all sorts of strengths and AP values and diluting what little damage you were doing in the first place. If you're going to go for a Russ, go basic with the battle tank, or the executioner if you face a lot of MCs/TEQs. Some people swear by the Demolisher as well.

Artillery: Medusa or Manticore, Medusa is great against tanks and heavy infantry whilst the Manticore is immense against hordes.

The Manticore is the gem of the artillery choices, and is way better against tanks than the Medusa (same S10 + indirect fire and multiple shots). I'm actually not a big fan of the Medusa due to having to fire directly and thus having to be in the open. My second choice for artillery after the Manticore is actually the Basilisk. Good gun and the low cost makes it easy to squadron.

Sentinals and Heavy Weapon Teams: always have Missile Launchers as they are so versatile.

Sentinels are crap. About the only use they have is as tarpits against units that can't crack AV12 reliably. As for HWTs, autocannons are the weapons of choice unless you face tons of AV13, in which case you should just skip right to lascannons (or better yet, avoid HWTs in favor of vendettas and artillery). Missile launchers aren't bad weapons, but not worth the premium over the awesome autocannon.

Specialization and redundancy are king, regardless of the units you have.

Terminus wrote:

Sentinals and Heavy Weapon Teams: always have Missile Launchers as they are so versatile.

Sentinels are crap. About the only use they have is as tarpits against units that can't crack AV12 reliably. As for HWTs, autocannons are the weapons of choice unless you face tons of AV13, in which case you should just skip right to lascannons (or better yet, avoid HWTs in favor of vendettas and artillery). Missile launchers aren't bad weapons, but not worth the premium over the awesome autocannon.

Must disagree with you there. Scout sentinels with autocannons and hunter-killers are a pretty cheap way to threaten vehicles with low side armour. Probably most useful in a force that already has some outflankers. Also scout sentinels with flamers are pretty cheap and may get a charge off against long range heavy weapons squads. If they just tie them up for a turn or two then they have dramatically lessened the fire against your forces.

HWTs are ok if you already have a lot of infantry and need to lay down some fire. I prefer hydras but if you have little other armour the hydra will just die, so hwts have their uses.

if you go the hellhound/banewolf/devil dog route, just equip with a hull flamer. that way when the main gun goes down, you have a fast flameing vehicle.

as far as russes go, just depends. i do like the bolter sponsons the most. but, multi melta sponsons on a demolisher with lascannon, gives you alot of options when a weapon is destroyed. it is still a dangerous vehicle.

Trickstick wrote:Must disagree with you there. Scout sentinels with autocannons and hunter-killers are a pretty cheap way to threaten vehicles with low side armour. Probably most useful in a force that already has some outflankers. Also scout sentinels with flamers are pretty cheap and may get a charge off against long range heavy weapons squads. If they just tie them up for a turn or two then they have dramatically lessened the fire against your forces.

Sadly, with BS3 and paper-armor, "threaten" is about all they can accomplish. With tons of flanking stuff and indirect artillery, side armor is far from inaccessible to the average guard army.

Perhaps most importantly, a crippling flaw of the Sentinel is that it uses a FA slot. We have a lot of good things in the FA slot.

Mizeran wrote:I like my triple heavy bolter sponsons on my standard LRBT. They are fairly cheap and keeps the tank a potent threat even after losing the battlecannon. It's also an ok synergy since a LRBT is almost always used as an anti infantery vehicle.

+1

For only 20 extra points, you triple the anitinfantry output of your LRBT. This is my preferred loadout. Not scary enough to draw attention, but very few things in the game can actually kill their points worth; heavy bolters do, every time.

And for the love of all that's holy, everyone should stop recommending Pask. Your opponent is going to have DSing melta, and you're just making target priority easier. He is never worth the points, because to make him worth them, you'd have to put him in a really tooled up tank, which is again even more of a waste of points. It's like the worst kind of positive feedback: to make him worth the points, spend more points!

Terminus wrote:Perhaps most importantly, a crippling flaw of the Sentinel is that it uses a FA slot. We have a lot of good things in the FA slot.

You mean the hands down best FA choice in any army? Guard doesn't need a lot of good things, only one

Whilst valkyries are good I do think that they are over emphasised as being awesome in all situations and that it is never worth considering any other choice. They do have disadvantages, such as size and lack of armour. It is not that hard to kill them unless they travel flat out all the time, and then you have a real risk of killing the occupants if you disembark.

I really do like the valks but saying that there is no point to other models because we can take them is just wrong. Things like sentinels, hellhounds and dare I say rough riders all have certain situations where they are more useful. Valkyries may be the best but they can't hold up swarms of gaunts in endless fights, they can't kill guardsmen in cover, they can't wipe out a squad of marines in one round.

Sometimes you need a variety of tools, not just one awesome one.