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I recently got back into 40k with a friend. We have been out of the game for quite a while and don't have many models to speak of. After playing with proxies a few games to get back into it I have decided to play Tau. I know they are not Tier1 but I really enjoy the suits and the look of the models. That being said I still don't like losing 90% of the games I play and intend to play in tournaments. My FLGS runs most of it's tournaments around 1850 points so I think that will be a good number to build my first army toward. The list I intended to play is :

HQ - Shas'el w/ MP/PR, Target Array HW Multi-Tracker and 2 Shield Drones - 127 pts

1 Shas'vre Bodyguard w/ MP/PR, Target Array HW Multi-Tracker - 82 pts

Elites - Shas'ui Suit Team Leader w/ MP/PR, Target Array HW Multi-Tracker and 2 Shield Drones - 107

Shas'ui Suit w/ MP/PR, Multi-Tracker - 62 pts

(1 more 2 man suit team like above) - 169 pts

Troops - 10 Fire Warriors - 100 pts
Devilfish w/SMS, Target Array, Disruption Pods, Target Lock - 125 pts

(2 more squads like above) - 450 pts

11 Kroot Carnivores - 77 pts

Heavy - Shas'ui Broadside Team Leader w/Advanced Stabilization,HW Blacksun Filter and 1 Shield Drone - 103 pts

Shas'ui Broadside w/Advanced Stabilization - 80 pts

(2 more teams like above) - 366



Total : 1848 pts


The main idea behind this list is to stun/destroy large tanks (LR and such) with the broadsides to keep them as suppressed as possible. Crisis Suits pop transports with their MPs and PRs and jump back to avoid being fired back at. When the enemy gets close drop FWs out to lay down some fire (which is surprisingly effective) to help suits/tanks pick off the inhabitants of the transports. Use Kroot either as an objective holder or a speedbump depending on the game and every once in a while get a good outflank to take something out (I know they are bad but they are somewhat necessary). Please tell me what you think of the list. I have tried out Pathfinders a bit and really only found them very useful when also taking a Skyray. I am curious about Piranhas. They seem like they would be useful but I don't know if they pack enough firepower with being so fragile (and only 18" range). Thank you.

Okay, first things first, nix the blacksun filters on the broadsides... although very cheap, it is also very pointless.

Also, get rid of the target locks on your devilfish, the guns you are firing are exactly the same, and so why would you ever split fire???

You are spending too many points on troops. They may look shiny, but you really need those points for other parts of your army. I would do one of the following:
Take down the amount of fire warriors in each unit and get rid of the kroot
Get rid of a unit of 1 fire warriors and their devilish

With those points, I would get 2 units of 6 pathfinders (and you could just pretend that two of your fire warriors devilfish belong to them...)

I see that you don't think pathfinders work... overall though, when used correctly they can save your butt. Not only can they make your fire warriors rapid-fire incredibly nasty (for when you dump them all out), but denying cover saves is really nice. If those said landraiders were obscured, there is a good chance your AT firepower will have little effect...

I would highly suggest getting those 12 pathfinders.

With any spare points you may have leftover, I would just reinforce your crisis suit units.

Hope that helps,

The Bringer

I see your point on the Target Locks, there probably isn't any reason for them. I may well need to take some Pathfinders but with what you suggest I would have 2 units of 6 FWs with which to take objectives. Not really sure that is viable. I am aware that to min/max i would want units of 6 FWs but I have found that they are a large help against enemy troop choices instead of plinking away at 30 fearless Termigaunts with 7 shots from your Devilfish.

The thing is though, you can take objectives while in the devilfish. So, it can keep your mushy fire-warriors alive while claiming an objective.

Also, Termigaunts can't hurt your devilfish, so there is no need to dump out your fire warriors until they the termagaunts are weak enough to be guaranteed dead...

The other big point soak in your list are the shield drones. Get rid of them. Tau win games by having lots and lots of guns on the table, and you have 180 points that aren't guns. You drop those and that's a whole separate unit of Crisis Suits you can take.

Continuing in that theme, and as explained (rather thoroughly I might add) in this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/342106.page

I wouldn't default to the pathfinders. I like that you're thinking of piranha, because they are good (in the sense that they're 'good' for the tau codex, not 'good' in a general sense--Space Marine landspeeders are way better for the points). However piranha's primary use is for controlling your opponent's movements. You can 'march-block' your opponent, to use a fantasy term. By delaying and blocking the movement of your opponent, you can control the flow of battle. And because they have metlaguns you can potentially blow something up
And don't forget they have gun drones you can dismount.
As for kroot, you always want to take as many kroot hounds and as few kroot carnivores as possible. The typical unit setup is generally 10 carnivores and 6-8 hounds.
And unlike Bringer, I'm not a huge fan of devilfishes and I'm even less of a fan of fire warriors. But you can glean that from the other thread as well.
As for the suits, I like the missile pod/plasma rifle on the command squad, but for standard crisis suits, i'd just go with a twin-linked missile pod/target array build. It's 159 points for three and you get a highly mobile, highly accurate unit that spits out six S7 shots a turn. I hear that's pretty good.
Here's the list I'd go with:

1850/1850

--HQ--

1 Shas'El 87
-Plasma Rifle
-Missile Pod
-Multi-tracker
2 Crisis Bodyguards 164
-Plasma Rifle x2
-Missile Pod x2
-Multi-tracker x2
-HW Targeting Array x2

--Troops--

6 Fire Warriors 60

10 Kroot Carnivores 112
7 Kroot Hounds

10 Kroot Carnivores 112
7 Kroot Hounds

10 Kroot Carnivores 112
7 Kroot Hounds

--Elites--

3 Crisis Suits 159
-TL MP x3
-Targeting Array x3

3 Crisis Suits 159
-TL MP x3
-Targeting Array x3

3 Crisis Suits 159
-TL MP x3
-Targeting Array x3

--Heavy Support--

2 Broadside Battlesuits 170
-Targeting Array x2
-Team Leader
--Target Lock

3 Broadside Battlesuits 250
-Targeting Array x3
-Team Leader
--Target Lock

--Fast Attack--

2 Piranha Skimmers 150
-Targeting Array x2
-Disruption Pod
-Target Lock
-Fusion Blaster x2

2 Piranha Skimmers 150
-Targeting Array x2
-Disruption Pod
-Target Lock
-Fusion Blaster x2

The target locks in the list are really just a way to give you more options if you need it. However, I also think you'd be hard-pressed to find a better use of 20 points in a tau list. Finally, you've got four troop choices that can serve as a meat shield for your good units and in a pinch they cap objectives.

Hope it helps,

Knute

Thank you both for all of your input. @TheBringer - I think I do get a little trigger happy with my FW squads and see your point. @Knute - You have given me quite a few ideas on alternatives in my list. I like that you are able to significantly up the number of suits and I honestly hadn't really thought about the suit loadout you have given your regular crisis suits. They will pack a bit less firepower(and will lose AP2) but will be ridiculously accurate. It may be that I am still fairly new to the game but I am afraid of dropping to 0 shield drones on my suit teams. 1 Lascannon/ML shot would mean a dead suit(pray for no Longfangs). The 4+ invulnerable and additional body may well just be a safety net but it will take some time of them being useless before I can drop them altogether. Again, thank you both very much for the input.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I went back through my list and came up with this from some of your feedback.


HQ -
(1)Shas'el Fireknife w/Tracker - 87
(2) Shas'vre Fireknife w/Tracker - 134

Elites -

(3) Fireknife suits w/Tracker - 186

(3) Deathrain suits w/TA - 159

(3) Deathrain suits w/TA - 159

Troops -
(6) Firewarriors - 60
Devilfish w/SMS, TA, DP - 120

(6) Firewarriors - 60
Devilfish w/SMS, TA, DP - 120

(6) Firewarriors - 60
Devilfish w/SMS, TA, DP - 120

(10) Kroot w/(5) Hounds - 100

Heavy -
(2) Broadsides w/AS - 160

(2) Broadsides w/AS - 160

(2) Broadsides w/AS - 160


This list is 1846 points.

My big beef with your list is the BS3 on your bodyguard and the fireknife elite suits. Try it out if you want to, but trust me: BS3 sucks. I don't think there's any reason not to stick targeting arrays on all your command suits. That's why I take the command suits as fireknives--because you can take hard-wired targeting arrays.

Oh, and you're points value is off. The bodyguard are 144 points, which puts you 6 points over (bodyguard + plasma rifle + missile pod + multi-tracker = 72 x 2 = 144)

If you're going to run with fire warrior/devilfish (which is a mistake imho, but you'll learn by experience) then drop the kroot squad. I would also recommend dropping the broadsides for hammerheads if you're going to go for fire warrior/devilfish, because you don't have enough kroot to provide an effective shield for them. Ergo, I recommend a mech list:

--HQ--

1 Shas'El 90
-Plasma Rifle
-Missile Pod
-Multi-tracker
-Hard-Wired Blacksun Filter
2 Crisis Bodyguards 170
-Plasma Rifle x2
-Missile Pod x2
-Multi-tracker x2
-HW Targeting Array x2
-HW Blacksun Filter x2

1 Shas'El 68
-TL Missile Pod
-Targeting Array

--Elites--

3 Crisis Suits 159
-TL MP x3
-Targeting Array x3

3 Crisis Suits 159
-TL MP x3
-Targeting Array x3

3 Crisis Suits 159
-TL MP x3
-Targeting Array x3


--Troops--

6 Fire Warriors 180
-Warfish

6 Fire Warriors 180
-Warfish

6 Fire Warriors 180
-Warfish

--Heavy Support--

1 Hammerhead Gunship 165
-Disruption Pod
-Multi-tracker
-Burst Cannons x2

1 Hammerhead Gunship 165
-Disruption Pod
-Multi-tracker
-Burst Cannons x2

1 Hammerhead Gunship 165
-Disruption Pod
-Multi-tracker
-Burst Cannons x2

1850/1850

The blacksun filters are there because I had 9 points to spare. They're not 'good' per se, but if you have the points to spare, you can't really go wrong with them.

That'll give you six tanks, three scoring units and 13 Crisis Suits. You just keep the crisis suits behind cover and you'll be fine.

Hope it helps.

Knute

Yo knute...

24 S7 shots, of which 22 will hit, and 3 railguns seems a bit overkill for the armor.

I really think fireknives are more valuable...

Surely you can do more than 3 BFs with 9 spare points? ... I acutally count 19 spare points, which could get you a shield drone on your commander.


I think your last list is fine Zychz

You're right Bringer, thanks for catching my accounting error. I'll have to rethink the list a little.

But my previous comments stand valid. I think fireknives are only good on command squads and that's because you can give command squads the fireknife config AND make them BS4. And now, I don't think 24 S7 shots + 3 railguns is overkill. I frequently take more fire power than that and I keep wishing I had more.

For armor spam I have come up with a list that integrates mine and the one Knute just posted.


- HQ -

(1) Sha'el - 87
-Plasma Rifle
-Missile Pod
-Multi-Tracker
(2) Bodyguards 164
-Plasma Rifle x2
-Missile Pod x2
-Multi-Tracker x2
-HW Targeting Array x2

- Elites -


(3) Crisis Suits - 186
-Plasma Rifle x3
-Missile Pod x3
-Mutli-Tracker x3

(3) Crisis Suits - 159
-TL Missile Pod x3
-Targeting Array x3

(3) Crisis Suits - 159
-TL Missile Pod x3
-Targeting Array x3


- Troops -

(6) Fire Warriors - 60
-Devilfish w/SMS, TA, DP, M-T - 120

(6) Fire Warriors - 60
-Devilfish w/SMS, TA, DP, M-T - 120

(6) Fire Warriors - 60


- Fast -

(5) Pathfinders - 60
-Devilfish w/SMS,TA, DP, M-T - 120


- Heavy -

(1) Railhead w/DP, M-T, 2 Burst Cannons - 165

(1) Railhead w/DP, M-T, 2 Burst Cannons - 165

(1) Railhead w/DP, M-T, 2 Burst Cannons - 165


Which comes out to 1850 exactly. Now it will just be deciding between Tank spam or hella suits.

Knute wrote:The other big point soak in your list are the shield drones. Get rid of them. Tau win games by having lots and lots of guns on the table, and you have 180 points that aren't guns. You drop those and that's a whole separate unit of Crisis Suits you can take.

I wouldn't put a lot of stock in this statement. One word Lascannon. If you don't want it to die turn 1 or 2... give it shield drones. Period.

@Zyckz - Honestly, I think your first list is better. But, that's just because I don't like going Fire Warrior heavy myself. (Learned that lesson a LONG time ago.) Also, the non-Twinlinked Railguns will make you really miss your Broadsides.

Knute wrote:The other big point soak in your list are the shield drones. Get rid of them. Tau win games by having lots and lots of guns on the table, and you have 180 points that aren't guns. You drop those and that's a whole separate unit of Crisis Suits you can take.

Actually, I (+1) this quote as I think it summarizes quite well what we have to do until a new codex is created. Matter of fact, I (+1) all the messages Knute posted in his link regarding Tau warfare. With all other armies bringing stuff for cheaper, we need as much firepower as possible into our lists even if it means sacrificing some survivability.

TheBringer and Knute are probably the best people on the forum to learn Tau from so heed their words.

2001SpaceOdyssey wrote:
TheBringer and Knute are probably the best people on the forum to learn Tau from so heed their words.

Thanks... I would also include Brother Erekose in there. He has three years seniority on me in playing Tau, and is probably a much better player than me.

They like me...they really like me...