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As has been stated in other threads, various sources hint that the Blood Ravens space marines from Dawn of War were founded using geneseed from a traitor legion, specifically the Thousand Sons, due to their high numbers of psykers, etc. How common is this? Does it happen at all? Are there any other examples from the fluff of loyal chapters rumored to be founded using geneseed from a traitor legion? I haven't heard of a single chapter that was founded this way.

No. The Blood Ravens are an exception because they were created fo Relic to use on DoW.
There is no reason to use the traitor gene-seed. The IoM has perfectly good stocks of loyalist stuff.
It isn't common and really shouldn't happen.
However, there is the whole 13th and 21st foundng that went down the shi**er so to speak. The records from this are dodgy so it's feasible that the IoM was messing about with gene-seed and used traitor stuff as a base.

Also hints that some of the original Grey Knights were loyalists from Traitor legions so its possible that they used combined Geneseed to create the chapter genestocks

Ugly Green Trog wrote:Also hints that some of the original Grey Knights were loyalists from Traitor legions so its possible that they used combined Geneseed to create the chapter genestocks

The Grey Knights are rumoured to be using anything from gene-seed created from the Emperor's DNA, to traitor gene-seed.

Yeah I heard about the Emperor DNA thing but that would make em too simillar to the Custodes in my mind as aren't they created from the Emperor in the same way as regular marines are created from the Primarchs?

Ugly Green Trog wrote:Yeah I heard about the Emperor DNA thing but that would make em too simillar to the Custodes in my mind as aren't they created from the Emperor in the same way as regular marines are created from the Primarchs?

Custodes are created in a completly different manner from SM. No egen-seed and such. Not sure what they do have but i'm sure it's kick ass.

Aren't the Deathwatch made from remnants of traitors?
I know they recruit from other chapters but they may still use traitor geneseed; a possibility

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Flight_of_the_Eisenstein_%28Novel%29

No.
Deathwatch don't make their own recruits.
They are a chapter of volunteers used by the Ordo Xenos(Usually in squads) for elite operations. They have marines from many chapters. But they don't make their own marines. Their ranks have everyhting from Tactical marines to Dreadnoughts and terminators. They do have captains and librarians and chaplians but i'm not sure whether they have a chapter master though i am fairly sure they don't.

purplefood wrote:No. The Blood Ravens are an exception because they were created fo Relic to use on DoW.
There is no reason to use the traitor gene-seed. The IoM has perfectly good stocks of loyalist stuff.
It isn't common and really shouldn't happen.
However, there is the whole 13th and 21st foundng that went down the shi**er so to speak. The records from this are dodgy so it's feasible that the IoM was messing about with gene-seed and used traitor stuff as a base.

Pretty much this, really. I doubt the Imperials, not long after the Heresy would've decided: "Say, why don't we use the gene-seed of the guys who just betrayed us all ?" "WHAT A GREAT IDEA, LET'S DO IT!" To be honest, the whole Thousand Sons links and borrowed Blood Angels iconography kinda made the whole "Gee, who are we decended from?" stuff feel like a cheap cop-out to give the Blood Ravens some Mysterious PastTM. EDIT: Oh, this is my first post lol. Dunno why I chose this particular topic for it, guess that's what happens when you lurk for a while.

Blokeman wrote:

purplefood wrote:No. The Blood Ravens are an exception because they were created fo Relic to use on DoW.
There is no reason to use the traitor gene-seed. The IoM has perfectly good stocks of loyalist stuff.
It isn't common and really shouldn't happen.
However, there is the whole 13th and 21st foundng that went down the shi**er so to speak. The records from this are dodgy so it's feasible that the IoM was messing about with gene-seed and used traitor stuff as a base.

Pretty much this, really. I doubt the Imperials, not long after the Heresy would've decided: "Say, why don't we use the gene-seed of the guys who just betrayed us all ?" "WHAT A GREAT IDEA, LET'S DO IT!" To be honest, the whole Thousand Sons links and borrowed Blood Angels iconography kinda made the whole "Gee, who are we decended from?" stuff feel like a cheap cop-out to give the Blood Ravens some Mysterious PastTM. EDIT: Oh, this is my first post lol. Dunno why I chose this particular topic for it, guess that's what happens when you lurk for a while.

Welcome to Dakka, have a nice stay.

purplefood wrote:

Blokeman wrote:

purplefood wrote:No. The Blood Ravens are an exception because they were created fo Relic to use on DoW.
There is no reason to use the traitor gene-seed. The IoM has perfectly good stocks of loyalist stuff.
It isn't common and really shouldn't happen.
However, there is the whole 13th and 21st foundng that went down the shi**er so to speak. The records from this are dodgy so it's feasible that the IoM was messing about with gene-seed and used traitor stuff as a base.

Pretty much this, really. I doubt the Imperials, not long after the Heresy would've decided: "Say, why don't we use the gene-seed of the guys who just betrayed us all ?" "WHAT A GREAT IDEA, LET'S DO IT!" To be honest, the whole Thousand Sons links and borrowed Blood Angels iconography kinda made the whole "Gee, who are we decended from?" stuff feel like a cheap cop-out to give the Blood Ravens some Mysterious PastTM. EDIT: Oh, this is my first post lol. Dunno why I chose this particular topic for it, guess that's what happens when you lurk for a while.

Welcome to Dakka, have a nice stay.

Ta very much.

The fact that the IoM refuses to use Traitor Geneseed is also why almost all of the SM successors come from the Ultramarines, as they're one of the few original legions left that doesn't have some genetic defect and that behaives relatively "normal".

Guildsman wrote: As has been stated in other threads, various sources hint that the Blood Ravens space marines from Dawn of War were founded using geneseed from a traitor legion, specifically the Thousand Sons, due to their high numbers of psykers, etc. How common is this? Does it happen at all? Are there any other examples from the fluff of loyal chapters rumored to be founded using geneseed from a traitor legion? I haven't heard of a single chapter that was founded this way.

The Blood Ravens are the only official Chapter to hint at using the gene-seed of the Fallen Legions to the best of my knowledge. It's not a common thing, as it's extremely hard to justify the Imperium using the stocks they still have instead of the large stocks they have of loyalist gene-seed.

It may have happened, as a part of the Dark Founding (13th), or Cursed Founding (21st), but it's unlikely. Those two foundings seem to be set on what the Adeptus Mechanicus was attempting to do. The 13th seems that it was a change in training methods, leading to the birth of the Exorcists, and the 21st was the Mechanicus attempting to modify the gene-seed, leading to rampant mutation and plain bad luck.

purplefood wrote: No.
Deathwatch don't make their own recruits.
They are a chapter of volunteers used by the Ordo Xenos(Usually in squads) for elite operations. They have marines from many chapters. But they don't make their own marines. Their ranks have everyhting from Tactical marines to Dreadnoughts and terminators. They do have captains and librarians and chaplians but i'm not sure whether they have a chapter master though i am fairly sure they don't.

There is nothing to suggest they have a Chapter Master, as they aren't actually a Chapter, but rather an organisation within the ranks of the Ordo Xenos of the Inquisiton. The decisions on where and when they shall take the field are made by Inquisitors, not actually the Space Marines themselves (Although the Deathwatch Captain appears to have seniority in the field to an extent).

They also aren't truly volunteers. Certain marines from any chapter may be called to serve by the Ordo Xenos in the Deathwatch, and to my knowledge, none ever turns them down (If they even can).

MechaEmperor7000 wrote: The fact that the IoM refuses to use Traitor Geneseed is also why almost all of the SM successors come from the Ultramarines, as they're one of the few original legions left that doesn't have some genetic defect and that behaives relatively "normal".

Someone did the napkin math in another thread, and came up to 65% or so of the Chapters with known gene-seed are Ultramarine successors. The genetic defects aren't truly that pronounced in most, either a change in or the lack of a single organ or two in most cases, and not ones that are particularly important (Rogal Dorns geneseed is lacking in the Betcher's Gland and Sus-an membrane, and the malenocrome gland is malfunctioning in that of the Sons of Vulkan. Certainly not enough to pass the gene-seed over). The only founding legions that have big issues are the Space Wolves, and the Blood Angels.

I believe the gene-seed of Jaghatai Khan, Ferrus Manus and the Lion are all in perfect working condition.

purplefood wrote:No.
Deathwatch don't make their own recruits.
They are a chapter of volunteers used by the Ordo Xenos(Usually in squads) for elite operations. They have marines from many chapters. But they don't make their own marines. Their ranks have everyhting from Tactical marines to Dreadnoughts and terminators. They do have captains and librarians and chaplians but i'm not sure whether they have a chapter master though i am fairly sure they don't.

So, if a Marine in service of the Deathwatch dies... what happens to their geneseed? It would seem very valuable to waste?

Are there deathwatch apothecaries to harvest the valuable geneseed?

If so, would they have recovered the geneseed of Iacton Qruze (Lunar Wolves), Saul Tarvitz (Emperor's Children), Nathaniel Garro (Death Guard)?

THey probably have a few apothecaries on hand who send the geneseed back to the chapter...in a jiffy bag, via royal mail.

I thought all the traitor stock was under stasis on Terra.

whatwhat wrote:THey probably have a few apothecaries on hand who send the geneseed back to the chapter...in a jiffy bag, via royal mail.

Ziplocked and vacuum sealed obviously. I wonder if the loyalist marines from the traitor legions get their jiffy geneseed bags sent to the Eye of Terror.




It's a hole in the lore. But it stands to reason that if you are seconded and serving in the Deathwatch, they would have a process to preserve the geneseed.

severedblue wrote:

purplefood wrote:No.
Deathwatch don't make their own recruits.
They are a chapter of volunteers used by the Ordo Xenos(Usually in squads) for elite operations. They have marines from many chapters. But they don't make their own marines. Their ranks have everyhting from Tactical marines to Dreadnoughts and terminators. They do have captains and librarians and chaplians but i'm not sure whether they have a chapter master though i am fairly sure they don't.

So, if a Marine in service of the Deathwatch dies... what happens to their geneseed? It would seem very valuable to waste?

Are there deathwatch apothecaries to harvest the valuable geneseed?

If so, would they have recovered the geneseed of Iacton Qruze (Lunar Wolves), Saul Tarvitz (Emperor's Children), Nathaniel Garro (Death Guard)?

While I don't know about Deathwatch Apothecaries, it would make sense for them to have some on hand (Although, various chapters have varying rites when they remove the gene-seed).

In 'Warriors Brood' by Goto, it's written that the bodies of Astartes killed in service of the Deathwatch are sent back to their Chapter.

According to FFG, the geneseed is harvested when there is an apothecary present (and there frequently isn't, since the Deathwatch often works in small independent teams without the usual support net) and sent back to the original chapter. No sense in pointlessly antagonizing the organizations that are supplying the Deathwatch with personnel, after all.