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2011/02/10 18:21:28
Subject: Miss. license plate proposed to honor KKK leader
JACKSON, Miss. – A fight is brewing in Mississippi over a proposal to issue specialty license plates honoring Confederate Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest, who was an early leader of the Ku Klux Klan.
The Mississippi Division of Sons of Confederate Veterans wants to sponsor a series of state-issued license plates to mark the 150th anniversary of the Civil War, which it calls the "War Between the States." The group proposes a different design each year between now and 2015, with Forrest slated for 2014.
"Seriously?" state NAACP president Derrick Johnson said when he was told about the Forrest plate. "Wow."
Forrest, a Tennessee native, is revered by some as a military genius and reviled by others for leading an 1864 massacre of black Union troops at Fort Pillow, Tenn. Forrest was a Klan grand wizard in Tennessee after the war.
Sons of Confederate Veterans member Greg Stewart said he believes Forrest distanced himself from the Klan later in life. It's a point many historians agree upon, though some believe it was too little, too late, because the Klan had already turned violent before Forrest left.
"If Christian redemption means anything — and we all want redemption, I think — he redeemed himself in his own time, in his own actions, in his own words," Stewart said. "We should respect that."
State Department of Revenue spokeswoman Kathy Waterbury said legislators would have to approve a series of Civil War license plates. She said if every group that has a specialty license plate wanted a redesign every year, it would take an inordinate amount of time from Department of Revenue employees who have other duties.
SCV has not decided what the Forrest license plate would look like, Stewart said. Opponents are using their imagination.
A Facebook group called "Mississippians Against The Commemoration Of Grand Wizard Nathan Forrest" features a drawing of a hooded klansman in the center of a regular Mississippi car tag.
Robert McElvaine, director of the history department at the private Millsaps College in Jackson, joined the Facebook group. McElvaine said Forrest's role at Fort Pillow and involvement in the Klan make him unworthy of being honored.
"The idea of celebrating such a person, whatever his accomplishments in other areas may have been, seems like a very poor idea," McElvaine told The Associated Press.
Mississippi lawmakers have shown a decidedly laissez-faire attitude toward allowing a wide variety of groups to have speciality license plates, which usually sell for an extra $30 to $50 a year. The state sells more than 100 specialty plates for everything from wildlife conservation to breast cancer awareness. One design says "God Bless America," another depicts Elvis Presley. Among the biggest sellers are NASCAR designs and one with the slogan "Choose Life."
The Mississippi Division of the Sons of Confederate Veterans has had a state-issued specialty license plate since 2003 to raise money for restoration of Civil War-era flags. From 2003 through 2010, the design featured a small Confederate battle flag.
The Department of Revenue allowed the group to revise the license plate this year for the first of the Civil War sesquicentennial designs. The 2011 plate, now on sale, depicts the Beauvoir mansion in Biloxi, Miss., the final home of Jefferson Davis, the Confederate president.
SCV wants license plates to feature Civil War battles that took place in Mississippi. It proposes a Battle of Corinth design for 2012 and Siege of Vicksburg design for 2013. Stewart said the 2015 plate would be a tribute to Confederate veterans.
Johnson, with the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, said he's not bothered by Civil War commemorative license plates generally. But he said Mississippi shouldn't honor Forrest, who was an early leader of what he calls "a terrorist group."
"He should be viewed in the same light that we view Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden," Johnson said of Forrest. "The state of Mississippi should deny any vanity tags which would highlight racial hatred in this state."
Democratic Rep. Willie Bailey, who handles license plate requests in the House, said he has no problem with SCV seeking any design it wants.
"If they want a tag commemorating veterans of the Confederacy, I don't have a problem with it," said Bailey, who is black. "They have that right. We'll look at it. As long as it's not offensive to anybody, then they have the same rights as anybody else has."
So either they support a traitor or just a good ole home brewed terrorist.
And whilst you're pointing and shouting at the boogeyman in the corner, you're missing the burglar coming in through the window.
Well, Duh! Because they had a giant Mining ship. If you had a giant mining ship you would drill holes in everything too, before you'd destory it with a black hole
2011/02/10 18:23:10
Subject: Miss. license plate proposed to honor KKK leader
Forrest was a brilliant cavalry guy who was looked to by Rommel and others for insight.
However:
1. He was a traitor so ^&^*% him;
2. He did help found the KKK so make him thrice damned.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2011/02/10 19:07:04
Subject: Miss. license plate proposed to honor KKK leader
Agreed, Crap like this is what fuels tension in the south, and that in turn fuels radio shock joks and the NAACP. So everybody loses.
And whilst you're pointing and shouting at the boogeyman in the corner, you're missing the burglar coming in through the window.
Well, Duh! Because they had a giant Mining ship. If you had a giant mining ship you would drill holes in everything too, before you'd destory it with a black hole
2011/02/10 19:20:56
Subject: Miss. license plate proposed to honor KKK leader
Frazzled wrote:Forrest was a brilliant cavalry guy who was looked to by Rommel and others for insight.
However:
1. He was a traitor so ^&^*% him;
2. He did help found the KKK so make him thrice damned.
I agree with point 1 to some extent. But for point 2, didn't he leave the KKK when he saw how out of control it was getting and actually helped disband it, before it rose again under different leadership? He even spoke out about racial reconciliation towards the end of his life. I'm a layman at best when it comes to Civil War/Post-bellum history, most of my civil war knowledge comes from what a textbook says and multiple viewings of Ken Burns Civil War miniseries, so correct me if I'm wrong.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, a cursory study of such a complex man would probably reveal more about the man to admire then revile. But thats the crazy thing about our Civil War, most of the military genius was on the losing side and history generally forgets/disregards the losers.
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
2011/02/10 19:23:24
Subject: Re:Miss. license plate proposed to honor KKK leader
He was on the wrong side of the right cause.
Twice.
him and all who support him or his name in any way.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2011/02/10 19:29:10
Subject: Miss. license plate proposed to honor KKK leader
SilverMK2 wrote:Why don't they just use Forrest Gump?
(Forrest Gump, at the bus stop, before realizing Frazzled weiner dog scouts have just snuck up and stolen his box of chocolates)
"Life is like a box HEY GET BACK HERE YOU LITTLE ERS!"
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2011/02/10 19:32:55
Subject: Re:Miss. license plate proposed to honor KKK leader
Frazzled wrote:He was on the wrong side of the right cause.
Twice.
him and all who support him or his name in any way.
That made me laugh for real.
Generally I'd post something similiar to troll the "Its called the WAR OF NORTHERN AGGRESSION and it wasn't about slavery!!!!" people, but I find myself pretty sympathetic to Nathan B. Forrest. I genuinely think he got dealt a poor hand in terms of historic legacy. At least as far as what I know about him.
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
2011/02/10 19:36:46
Subject: Miss. license plate proposed to honor KKK leader
You're sympathetic to one of the founders of the KKK? You sir, have issues.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2011/02/10 19:42:54
Subject: Miss. license plate proposed to honor KKK leader
dogma wrote:The guy fought for his beliefs and lost. If someone wants to honor him for other contribution, then who cares.
I mean lets be honest, its not like Abraham Lincoln was a beacon of racial tolerance by any contemporary standard.
I care.
Godwin alert!!!
Hitler and the Nazis fought for their beliefs too, which were not especially dissimilar. Do you have a problem with them being honored?
Plus, not only did he fight in The War of Northern Aggression he was a major player with the Klan. You don't get a pass on that. Thats a self selected trip right to hell, or worse the DMV.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2011/02/10 19:58:02
Subject: Miss. license plate proposed to honor KKK leader
dogma wrote:I mean lets be honest, its not like Abraham Lincoln was a beacon of racial tolerance by any contemporary standard.
Lincoln was also the president of the United states and one that was assassinated after successfully re-uniting the country, and was also NOT a member of the KKK. Rather different from a racist who got nervous once his racist group of racists started showing their true feelings through violence.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2011/02/10 20:16:30
Subject: Miss. license plate proposed to honor KKK leader
It's generally accepted that the Emancipation Proclamation was much more an act of political manuvering than anything else. The fact that it only freed slaves in the Confederacy kinda makes it clear....
In all honesty, I think Forrest is a bad choice just because of the controversey. He just has too much weight on his shoulders. I mean, commerating Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson and other great Confederates would probably be fine....Forresst is just, too close to the line. I usually don't give a damn about political correctness, but I'd say that this may be going a little too far. Now, if a PRIVATE organization made some kind of bumper sticker commemorating Forrest? THat I'd say let it be...it's the fact that it's the state making this that concerns me.
Edit: Spelling
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/10 20:23:06
"If everything on Earth were rational, nothing would ever happen."
~Fyodor Dostoevsky
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
~Hanlon's Razor
Kilkrazy wrote:Has anyone said why Nathan Forrest should be honoured?
1. Brilliant cavalry commander -- for the rebels.
2. Massacred black troops.
3. Helped start the KKK but left it later.
It is because Mississippi hasn't got anyone better they could used as a symbol?
Sure they do, but cracker rednecks with few teeth pushing this kind of thing don't help.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2011/02/10 21:02:51
Subject: Miss. license plate proposed to honor KKK leader
Frazzled wrote:You're sympathetic to one of the founders of the KKK? You sir, have issues.
I guess sympathetic was a poor choice of wording. Ambivalent is more accurate in how I feel about N.B. Forrest. His wartime strategies and heroics were pretty admirable, but alas, he was a rebel fighting for slavery. His post-bellum antics (KKK) were reprehensible, but later helping disband the organization and speaking out on racial reconciliation with black organizations and his reportedly extreme progessive views (of that time) was kind of redemptive. I'm not trying to say he was a saint or anything, just that he was a complex dude.
With that said, he's a poor choice to honor on a license plate because of the controversy. Like KK said, are there really no other people from Mississippi to showcase?
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
2011/02/10 21:31:29
Subject: Re:Miss. license plate proposed to honor KKK leader
We can all recognize humanity's inner desire to connect to something larger. We all want our existence and way of life grounded in history. Everyone wants to be proud of their roots, their heritage, and where they came from. We want to be able to look back on those who came before with pride and admiration. They made us who we are and secured what we have.
However, your history has plenty of villains. It is marred by acts of selfishness, bigotry, and pure evil. But, don't let that bother you too much. Every culture has its own monsters, its own deep shame.
Most peoples are ashamed of the worst parts of their heritage. They apologize for it, are embarrassed about it, and do their best to politely keep it hidden away.
You, however, seem to be either too stubborn to accept that your forefathers made serious blunders, too ignorant to understand the fact that you should be ashamed, or, worse, actually still a bunch of horrid monsters.
We've tolerated this behavior for over a century now, but we can no longer stand for it. We have the following demands:
1) Recognize the fact that slavery is bad. Publicly apologize for slavery.
2) Never again try to make excuses such as "Not all masters mistreated their slaves." They still held people in slavery. That is mistreatment!
3) You lost the Civil War. Get over it. Remove all symbols relating to your rebellion from all flags, trucks, courthouses, colleges, and anything else.
4) The Civil War is called "The Civil War". It is not "The War of Northern Aggression", nor is it "The War Between the States".
5) Stop honoring people who are famous solely for racial discrimination! Washington and Jefferson owned slaves, but they weren't proud about it and they accomplished so much more that we can ignore those facets of their life. No one is perfect. But, they never advocating slaughtering people in order to keep slavery around.
If you do not meet our demands within the next 90 days, we will be forced to cancel NASCAR.
Thank you for your co-operation,
The civilized people of the world
We can all recognize humanity's inner desire to connect to something larger. We all want our existence and way of life grounded in history. Everyone wants to be proud of their roots, their heritage, and where they came from. We want to be able to look back on those who came before with pride and admiration. They made us who we are and secured what we have.
However, your history has plenty of villains. It is marred by acts of selfishness, bigotry, and pure evil. But, don't let that bother you too much. Every culture has its own monsters, its own deep shame.
Most peoples are ashamed of the worst parts of their heritage. They apologize for it, are embarrassed about it, and do their best to politely keep it hidden away.
You, however, seem to be either too stubborn to accept that your forefathers made serious blunders, too ignorant to understand the fact that you should be ashamed, or, worse, actually still a bunch of horrid monsters.
We've tolerated this behavior for over a century now, but we can no longer stand for it. We have the following demands:
1) Recognize the fact that slavery is bad. Publicly apologize for slavery.
2) Never again try to make excuses such as "Not all masters mistreated their slaves." They still held people in slavery. That is mistreatment!
3) You lost the Civil War. Get over it. Remove all symbols relating to your rebellion from all flags, trucks, courthouses, colleges, and anything else.
4) The Civil War is called "The Civil War". It is not "The War of Northern Aggression", nor is it "The War Between the States".
5) Stop honoring people who are famous solely for racial discrimination! Washington and Jefferson owned slaves, but they weren't proud about it and they accomplished so much more that we can ignore those facets of their life. No one is perfect. But, they never advocating slaughtering people in order to keep slavery around.
If you do not meet our demands within the next 90 days, we will be forced to cancel NASCAR.
Thank you for your co-operation,
The civilized people of the world
Corrected your typo.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2011/02/10 21:38:36
Subject: Re:Miss. license plate proposed to honor KKK leader
Grakmar wrote:If you do not meet our demands within the next 90 days, we will be forced to cancel NASCAR.
Damn. The world's playing hard ball
Sometimes I think the south gets a bad rep from a few select organizations that won't let go of the past. I attended high school in North Carolina, and I never heard anyone call it the War of Northern Aggression. It was the Civil War, those chapters of the text book were oddly short compared to the others. Ar there crazy people in the south? Damn straight there are. But there are crazy people everywhere. I'm not really convinced the South has more or less than anywhere else.
We could always gather a sample and test for significance
With that said. The General IS the most badass vehicle ever devised:
I even made my own version in Chromehounds. Damn did I catch flak for that one XD
Grakmar wrote:Dear people of the deep south,.....
....We've tolerated this behavior for over a century now, but we can no longer stand for it. We have the following demands:
1) Recognize the fact that slavery is bad. Publicly apologize for slavery.
2) Never again try to make excuses such as "Not all masters mistreated their slaves." They still held people in slavery. That is mistreatment!
3) You lost the Civil War. Get over it. Remove all symbols relating to your rebellion from all flags, trucks, courthouses, colleges, and anything else.
4) The Civil War is called "The Civil War". It is not "The War of Northern Aggression", nor is it "The War Between the States".
5) Stop honoring people who are famous solely for racial discrimination! Washington and Jefferson owned slaves, but they weren't proud about it and they accomplished so much more that we can ignore those facets of their life. No one is perfect. But, they never advocating slaughtering people in order to keep slavery around.
If you do not meet our demands within the next 90 days, we will be forced to cancel NASCAR.
Thank you for your co-operation,
The civilized people of the world
Oh dear.... sonny, sit down on the porch, drink some iced-tea and prepare for a "southern rebuttal".
Grakmar wrote:"We've tolerated this behavior for over a century now, but we can no longer stand for it"
What behavior is that? Taking/Raping a continent that previously belonged to red-skinned savages?
1. Slavery is bad. Had I owned any; I would apologise (whilst counting my mis-gotten money) However; unless youre a recent import, a forigner (in either case you should butt out) or a decendent of said slaves, you should ALSO apologise.
2. There are no excuses. Whippin Toby is Whippin Toby.
3. Yes, the south lost the war... this idea you prepose... would it include getting rid of Vietnam/Korean war vets, their Pow/Mia flags and bumper stickers as well? Good luck with that!
4. It is "the War of Northern Aggression." there was nothing "Civil" about it. The south wanted to break off and the north wouldnt have it.
5.If we stopped "honoring" people that had done bad things in their lives, there would be noone left to honor. "Hail to the Chief, of Chicago politics"
I will NOT meet your demands in the solem hope that somehow you CAN cancel NASCAR. Apparently stereotyping personalities dont only exist in the south.
And "civilized people of the world?" ...... Indeed.
"If you are not naughty you get a cookie. If you are naked, you get a cookie." - Insaniak, Dakka Mod
2011/02/10 22:15:17
Subject: Miss. license plate proposed to honor KKK leader
Let's see...I'm part "Native American",so in theory...I can be offended by ANY imagery of ANY "European/American Hero" couldn't I?
I could.again in theory,be as offended by the American Flag as many African Americans are by the Confederate Flag,after all...the American Flag flew as the banner over the armies that oppressed and killed MY people...right?
But...I don't...one would be hard pressed to find a culture anywhere that at some point in History hasn't suffered under the misdeeds of another....and the allowance or non allowance of the image of some dead Southern General on a States licence tag won't affect the contents of peoples hearts...people will hate others or people will accept them...period.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/10 22:32:49
I am both selfish and chaotic. I value self-gratification and control; I want to have things my way, preferably now. At best, I'm entertaining and surprising; at worst, I'm hedonistic and violent.
2011/02/10 22:38:05
Subject: Re:Miss. license plate proposed to honor KKK leader
gregor_xenos wrote:Oh dear.... sonny, sit down on the porch, drink some iced-tea and prepare for a "southern rebuttal".
Manchu wrote:- Someone in Mississippi had a poor idea.
- Now everyone stop with the stereotypes.
Good point all three. I was attempting to be a bit humorous and over-generalized. Not all people of the south are rednecks. And, every group has it's jackholes that you can single out to make the group look bad.
I meant no offense to anyone that is civilized and has respect for his or her fellow human beings. If you were offended, my apologies.
Manchu wrote:I'd just rather not start another Civil War here on Dakka. Two many foreigners about, anyway, for a proper airing of grievances.
I'm inclined to agree with you Manchu,my point is simply that banning/prohibiting "Offensive" images really does little in the way of "Improving relationships"...IMO it's sort of like sweeping the dirt under the rug...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Batman wrote:
FITZZ wrote: Let's see...I'm part "Native American"
Aren't well all? I don't think I have ever met an American that wasn't.
I get what your saying...but by " Part" I mean my Fathers Grand Father was from a reservation in Oklahoma.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/10 22:51:37
I am both selfish and chaotic. I value self-gratification and control; I want to have things my way, preferably now. At best, I'm entertaining and surprising; at worst, I'm hedonistic and violent.
2011/02/10 22:55:01
Subject: Miss. license plate proposed to honor KKK leader
FITZZ wrote: Let's see...I'm part "Native American"
Aren't well all? I don't think I have ever met an American that wasn't.
I'm not. I can track my lineage, no Native American in there.
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
2011/02/10 22:57:36
Subject: Miss. license plate proposed to honor KKK leader
I am both selfish and chaotic. I value self-gratification and control; I want to have things my way, preferably now. At best, I'm entertaining and surprising; at worst, I'm hedonistic and violent.
him and all who support him or his name in any way.
he was a major player with the Klan. You don't get a pass on that. Thats a self selected trip right to hell, or worse the DMV.
707th Lubyan Aquila Banner Motor Rifle Regiment (6000 pts)
Battlefleet Tomania (2500 pts)
Had I owned any; I would apologise (whilst counting my mis-gotten money) However; unless youre a recent import, a forigner (in either case you should butt out) or a decendent of said slaves, you should ALSO apologise.
The south wanted to break off and the north wouldnt have it.
...... Indeed.
