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My questions are right in the title. I am planning on starting IG but the variant options have also peaked my interests. I am currently leaning towards kreig but I am definitely open to suggestions as this is only my 2nd army (1400 points of tau which I have grown very sick and tired of.) You opinion really does matter to me and if you can't answer the 2nd question then answer the first. I would also request that on the 2nd question you make sure to back up your answer on reasons why you think so. Thank you and cheers

if i could use any forgeworld model i would go with the vulture with the punisher cannons. it just looks great and mean. but, thats just me.

Yeah go 4 it.

Death Korps are a awesome looking and fun army to use.

Remeber though that it cost alot more then standared GW items.

And you will need specific IA books to use the troops, vehicles, Doctrines, etc.

I went for ELysian Drop Troops because I didnt want a generic IG army.

And they are awesome to use due to thier diffrent playing style to normal IG and thier unique models and rules.

FW use is always fine with me. Most players that have an issue generally either had a bad experience with stuff played incorrectly, or are too obsessed with "zomg not codex won't play!" or just don't really have an accurate concept of what FW stuff actually is. Though three newer units for SM's do kinda tend to break good feelings towards FW (the Lucius drop pod, the Caestus and the Achilles)

As for which which variant is best, the core IG rules are probably the most competitive. the FW lists are fun, but not as good. The Kreig list is probably the least competitive, but isn't terrible either. The FW IG lists generally lack critical units from the basic codex, such as Chimeras & Vets other units for the DKoK, or can't take as many guns in units as codex equivalents can like in the Elysian list for command squads. Most people will generally find the FW lists more forgiving to play against.

I would never let my opponent use Forge World rules unless they brought the FW models to the table.

Want to run the IA Kreig list? Bring an army of Kreig models. Elyssian? Same goes.

Count-as Caestus Assault Ram? Hell no.

Why on earth would stuff like the common infantry matter? Certainly other worlds field Siege regiments, there are many GW examples of such armies, FW just used Krieg as their archetype of a Siege Regiment. I can sorta maybe see requiring the actual FW model for the actual FW unit, but you wouldn't let an opponent use Cadians or Steel Legion or Valhallans or any other infantry for basic Guardsmen in a Siege regiment list?

shealyr wrote:I would never let my opponent use Forge World rules unless they brought the FW models to the table.

Want to run the IA Kreig list? Bring an army of Kreig models. Elyssian? Same goes.

Count-as Caestus Assault Ram? Hell no.

While I get where you're coming from (ie this Landspeeder is really an assault ram), the Krieg list is also a great alternative for a seige guard army, same with Elysians being a great alternative for running an airborn list. They're hardly overpowered, so as long as enough effort has gone into the army, I really don't see why you'd stop people using those lists with non-FW models.

It's like stopping people using the Space Wolves codex unless they're running the only recorded Space Wolf foundings - Space Wolves and Wolf Brothers. Get creative, not restrictive, with the hobby.

Well then they would at least need to be modeled as such.

If someone brings an army of Cadians with Power Fists and Medics in every unit and calls them Kreig, I probably wouldn't play them. If there's no other game available, then I guess, but I wouldn't want an opponent using IA rules simply because they think that they are good.

Now, I don't think this is any worse, mind you, than bringing a 3x Long Fang, Razorspam list with wound-allocation TWC. It's all being TFG, if you ask me.

shealyr wrote:
If someone brings an army of Cadians with Power Fists and Medics in every unit and calls them Kreig, I probably wouldn't play them.

Probably good because you can't do that in a Krieg army either.

If there's no other game available, then I guess, but I wouldn't want an opponent using IA rules simply because they think that they are good.

That's a different matter altogether (and playing the basic codex will get you a much more competitive army anyway) than simply wanting to play to a theme. Certainly the Cadians, masters of the fortress world of Cadia, field Siege regiments as well?

Thier was a guy who made a custom krieg army by coverting standared IG squads and stell legion in Australia.

His army was showcased by whitedwarf in 2006 so I cant say GW mind if people use converted IG armies for FW armies

If your conversions are good enough most people would feel honored to just play you, regardless of your rules. However those tend to be armies that costs more than FW items and are close to GD quality for the majority of their models.

For Forge World rules I would personally need to see the rules before I build my army (not the specific army list the guy will be using, but I want a general idea of what I'm facing). This largely stems from the fact that the first time I've ever faced FW items, the guy told me "it's ok. It costs 200 points and only has 10 armor on all sides". He neglected to tell me it was a flyer that took off 12 inches off all of the ranged weapons I had, as well as some rule that made it stupidfyingly hard to hit in close combat (I think it had to go into VTOL mode or something, or I cant even try CC with it). I brought Berserkers with pistols. Not fun.

I would have no problems, you can always use the minis with the standard Ig codex/rules if there are issues.

Elysians are too cool to be ignored, they have a good look some cool vehicle variants and nice fluff supporting them which is a bit different to the dirty old kriegers that everyone uses or wants to use.
I do have to ask a question though:

You opinion really does matter to me

why do you need our (dakkas) opinion when its your gaming buddies/store/gaming group that you really need to check with - with view to allowing FW rules.

Wow guys I had no idea that so many people would actually agree to this (so far I've only asked 2 guys before this, 1 said yes cause he uses elysians and the other one said no way.

I also have another question considering the fact that kreig units can take some super heavy detachments which gives them their full strength. if I was using a kreig army would you let me take the super heavy detachments listed in their codex update?

btw the link to their updated rules is here right from the forge world website not pirated or stolen.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/k/kreig.pdf

need adobe reader to view since this is pdf. Detachments are at the very end


Thanks guys!

Superheavy detachments should really only be taken if your opponent has one as well, or at least a realistic chance of countering it. It's not fair otherwise.

I have no problem with the IA rules myself.

Current Guard lists:
Codex - lots of great options, very flexible. If you take the extra vehicle upgrade options from IA1Update then a couple of units get a boost - most notably the Vanquisher which gets the option of a coax weapon.
Kreig - very stationary list. Has good firepower options in Elite, Fast Attack and Heavy Support. Lots of shooting but seems a bit boring to me.
Renegades and Heretic - a little weak but very fluffy. Mobile or horde guard with minimal armour but with chaos marine support. Interesting.
Drop Guard - Interesting list, hard to pack in the firepower but doable. By far the most different to a codex list.
Armoured Company - Nearly brilliant but with only two troop choices (regular infantry squads in chimeras and non-scoring Russes) it's hurt badly. If only it had vet squads or scoring russes....

Don't forget, you can use whichever guard models you like for whichever list - if you want to make a Drop Guard list using Kreig models or a codex list using Elysian models then go for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Dreadnote wrote:Superheavy detachments should really only be taken if your opponent has one as well, or at least a realistic chance of countering it. It's not fair otherwise.

A super heavy detachment fills an entire force org. So, if he takes a baneblade or two with his army then he's using two force org charts. So you get to use two force orgs. With six Elite, FA and HS slots to use it isn't hard to massacre super heavies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yshabash wrote:Wow guys I had no idea that so many people would actually agree to this (so far I've only asked 2 guys before this, 1 said yes cause he uses elysians and the other one said no way.

I also have another question considering the fact that kreig units can take some super heavy detachments which gives them their full strength. if I was using a kreig army would you let me take the super heavy detachments listed in their codex update?

Most people have never seen the IA rules. Let them see the list or rules that you're looking to use and see what they say.

Re the super heavies, remember that a detachment uses a whole force org. That means your opponent get's two force orgs as well. Some armies benefit from that enormously, some are hurt by it, especially at low points (it hits armies like Tau which have expensive but weak troop choices worst as they must now buy twice as many troops). Either way, your opponent will need to make a list especially and may need more models to make the list legal. (e.g. if he only has less than four troop units then he cannot make a legal two-detachment army)

I tend to find that including superheavies in 40K makes the game pretty dull as so much is focused onto one or two models. It's okay for a change if your opponent has enough models to build a decent two-detachment army. I wouldn't recommend doing it regularly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

shealyr wrote:but I wouldn't want an opponent using IA rules simply because they think that they are good.

None of the FW guard lists are anywhere near as good as the codex. They're just more fluffy.

shealyr wrote:I would never let my opponent use Forge World rules unless they brought the FW models to the table.

Want to run the IA Kreig list? Bring an army of Kreig models. Elyssian? Same goes.

Count-as Caestus Assault Ram? Hell no.

I would have to agree with this, the IA regiment lists can get some silly things (like the feel no pain quartermaster powerblobs with powerfists) but are generally designed around the forgeworld infantry models (i.e. krieg watchmasters may take a lasgun instead of pistol/ccw simply because in the advancing/firing squads there is no sergeant model! or the grenadier centaur MUST take extra armour because it's modelled that way). If someone has bothered to take the time to convert cadians, catachans or whatever model to represent a siege/drop/renegade company, then fine. But if someone takes random cadians and calls them krieg? Probably not.

Also the FW lists are incredibly inferior to the IG codex, you get a few nice boosts in some areas such as superior infantry with the Elysian/Krieg, but they're more expensive, and you lose out on a lot of decent options to go with them (most notably veterans, all chimera chassis based untis, vendettas etc.) and with the elysians you lose pretty much all heavy armour leaving you very behind on firepower and lasting power (I don't care if you say you can buy a vulture, it's still very lacking compared to a leman russ or artillery). Renegades suffer heavily from random leadership and lack of squadrons.

If you do decide to use any of the IA rules, I highly suggest investing in the models or at least converting them to actually represent that particular style of warfare, however, make sure you actually like playing that style, since I don't think many people would like me proxying my death korps as elysians, and my elysians as death korps!

The IG codex is also far more versatile then all the IA lists, if you want to change playstyles quickly, just go for the IG codex. The IA lists can be very unforgiving due to the very rigid structuring, and limited choices, so I'd actually recommend playing the IG codex first, then deciding what you want to do from there.


Also, Krieg gunline play is pretty poor, Krieg assault is where it's at, especially since all infantry squads can swap their lasgun for a CCW/laspistol, are WS4, stubborn in combat only and that all sergeants and commissars can take powerfists. (did I mention that the quartermaster can make multiple squads have feel no pain?) Only downside is you can't take priests.

Nope no IA rules on my table unless both players have access to FW stuff etc.

Personally I think FW armies are a bad idea you could end shelling out a huge amount of cash just for folks to "vetto" your army for tournaments etc

Jubear wrote:

Personally I think FW armies are a bad idea you could end shelling out a huge amount of cash just for folks to "vetto" your army for tournaments etc

Probably because of this rather unproductive mindset...

Nope no IA rules on my table unless both players have access to FW stuff etc.

Oh I am sorry here roll me with your stupid overpowered IA stuff I mean I really didnt even want a chance of winning anyway.....

I dont mean super heavies etc I mean stuff like the assault ram and that stupid LR variant and the fact xenos gets very little love from IA I mean how many more advantages do you IoM weenies need..

DKoK and Elysians are actually WORSE than standard Guard, so i don't know where you're coming from with this ZOMG FW = OP!!!11one!! thing.

To be honest, I'd be honored to sit across from someone who has invested the time and money to build/convert and paint a Krieg or Elysian army. I don't care if I get my ass kicked left and right, it'll be a fun game against awesome models.

ChrisWWII wrote:DKoK and Elysians are actually WORSE than standard Guard, so i don't know where you're coming from with this ZOMG FW = OP!!!11one!! thing.

To be honest, I'd be honored to sit across from someone who has invested the time and money to build/convert and paint a Krieg or Elysian army. I don't care if I get my ass kicked left and right, it'll be a fun game against awesome models.

I think honored is a bit strong but I have zero problem playing against an army of krieg or Elysian just aslong as they use the IG codex...

I cant remember of the top of my head but I think krieg get access to FnP power blobs and thats just fething scary. I think the problem is that folk that have shelled out for FW stuff think that gives them the right to bring it into normal games and I disagree with this.

Do I feel bad that they have wasted money on a FW kit that they can rarely use? Not really its there own stupid fault for buying a model that only has non official rules...

Jubear wrote:Oh I am sorry here roll me with your stupid overpowered IA stuff I mean I really didnt even want a chance of winning anyway.....

I dont mean super heavies etc I mean stuff like the assault ram and that stupid LR variant and the fact xenos gets very little love from IA I mean how many more advantages do you IoM weenies need..

First of all, Calm down, chill out, and get over it.

Second, the overwhelmingly vast majority of FW stuff is merely ok, you can count the OP stuff on one hand (Lucius & Deathwind Drop Pods, Caestus, Achilles, *maybe* the Hades?), and its almost all SM stuff. It's not going to "roll you" like you think it is, especially if its Xenos/IG stuff.

Third, most of this stuff is available on the FW site for free to download. Take a look at the rules for the stuff before flipping out. You will find that the Krieg and Elysian lists are far less abuseable than the standard IG codex. FNP is available only through a secondary HQ unit that doesn't attach, and thus can be picked out and killed fairly easily, and S6 powerfists aren't all *that* scary, and are hugely expensive and are in squads that can't take Heavy Weapons.

Finally, In addition to my IG, I've also got CSM's, Eldar, Tau, and Tyranids. I know whats up with the scorecard believe me. Eldar have been getting lots of love lately and Tau have a great variety of FW stuff, especially as two of the units in their current codex were FW first.

Do I feel bad that they have wasted money on a FW kit that they can rarely use? Not really its there own stupid fault for buying a model that only has non official rules...

So, it has nothing to do with the fact that you won't give it a chance? It's just their fault they bought a cool official Citadel model with rules that are offiically Copyright GW and you just pull a "chicken little"?

I would have to disagree with some of the people who say that kreig are less competitive than vanilla guard. Though we do lose a considerable amount of advantages engineers are awesome, artillery is better (increased AV), death riders and so on. I do not however think they are any stronger than reg guard either I simply think they provide a different version of the army for people who want it. Yes we almost never run away cause we have frikin commissar spam and yes we are fearless when we have commisars so no executions (yay) as well as the +1 to WS but all this comes a pints cost. We cost as much as %^&* space marines in some places. I think these guys are a more elite and more apoc and cities of death based version of reg guard but that's just my opinion. I don't think they are better or worse just different. Though I do have to admit I think that the elysians could use a little points decrease or something simply because after they deep strike is where almost all their advantages end (I could use fliers, oh wait its not apoc so people are going to be noobs and not let me.) They also have to basically try to somehow survive after they have captured objectives which in their case isn't very easy unless you air power is so strong you manage to hold the attackers at bay. The fliers are very hard to kill but in my opinion do the same damage as a tank at only 3x the points cost XD

Yeah I am sorry for wanting to play the game with the official rules and not some 3rd party crap. I also wont play custom units or count as armies so I guess that makes me a monster along with with every tournament organiser in the history of the game.

If its just a game between friends then I have no problem with IA aslong as both players can access the stuff they want without proxying some god awfull "scratch built" IA unit

The only artillery in the list is AV10 and AV11 stuff that dies on a glance with T3 5+sv Ld7 crewmemebers, no AV12 vehicle arty, and Commissars do NOT make units fearless and they WILL execute models in a DKoK list. The +1WS is also mostly a waste sadly, lots of empty points, and 20% more expensive basic infantry that cant take heavy weapons.

Yeah I am sorry for wanting to play the game with the official rules and not some 3rd party crap.

You mean the rules with an "Official Warhammer 40,000 product" stamp on them, marked as "Official Citadel" models, from an in-house division (that isn't even a separate entity) that is located in the same building as the primary GW design studio? First it's "ZOMG ITS ALL OVERPOWERED AND I WILL LOSE!" now its "ITS 3rd PARTY UNOFFICIAL CRAP"

Keep in mind that there is nothing in the rulebook about what is or is not legal for "normal" play. There isn't a single rule that states that "codex+BRB only" is the standard for normal play.


Methinks one should look up the definition of 3rd party.

I also wont play custom units or count as armies so I guess that makes me a monster along with with every tournament organiser in the history of the game.

Tourney's cut FW out for simplicity, and because many stores don't sell it so it doesn't generate sales for stores. It has nothing to do with balance. Tournaments also have absolutely nothing to do with what is allowed for normal play (nor is there any universal tournament standard to play tournaments by).

Vaktathi wrote:The only artillery in the list is AV10 and AV11 stuff that dies on a glance with T3 5+sv Ld7 crewmemebers, no AV12 vehicle arty, and Commissars do NOT make units fearless and they WILL execute models in a DKoK list. The +1WS is also mostly a waste sadly, lots of empty points, and 20% more expensive basic infantry that cant take heavy weapons.

Yeah I am sorry for wanting to play the game with the official rules and not some 3rd party crap.

You mean the rules with an "Official Warhammer 40,000 product" stamp on them, marked as "Official Citadel" models, from an in-house division (that isn't even a separate entity) that is located in the same building as the primary GW design studio? First it's "ZOMG ITS ALL OVERPOWERED AND I WILL LOSE!" now its "ITS 3rd PARTY UNOFFICIAL CRAP"

Keep in mind that there is nothing in the rulebook about what is or is not legal for "normal" play. There isn't a single rule that states that "codex+BRB only" is the standard for normal play.


Methinks one should look up the definition of 3rd party.

I also wont play custom units or count as armies so I guess that makes me a monster along with with every tournament organiser in the history of the game.

Tourney's cut FW out for simplicity, and because many stores don't sell it so it doesn't generate sales for stores. It has nothing to do with balance. Tournaments also have absolutely nothing to do with what is allowed for normal play.

Look you can argue what you want all day but at the end of the day if FW stuff was offical it would be in the main codexs and not a supplement.

I am sorry you have bought a ton of models you cant use but thats not my fault and for the record tournaments dont allow IA because its not balanced (in both ways some stuff is overcosted and some under costed)

Again, Tournaments not allow IA has nothing to do with balance, and Tournament allowance has no bearing on anything outside of any particular Tournament, why is that so hard to understand? It's completely irrelevant.

And once more, the overwhelmingly vast majority of FW units aren't unbalanced, far less so than what you get in the normal codecies.

I don't have any problems using my FW stuff. Never have. I'm just sorry when I see opinions like yours expressed, because it means that players in your group obviously do have such problems, that show how much you just don't know about FW either as an organization, their relationship to the game, or their actual rules and units despite most being free downloads from their website.

Look through the rulebook. Get back to me if you find a rule that defines what is "official" or not, besides a blurb about being Citadel models, which Forgeworld models very much are.

Jubear wrote:Oh I am sorry here roll me with your stupid overpowered IA stuff I mean I really didnt even want a chance of winning anyway.....

I dont mean super heavies etc I mean stuff like the assault ram and that stupid LR variant and the fact xenos gets very little love from IA I mean how many more advantages do you IoM weenies need..

Please tone down the rhetoric a little and try to be a little friendlier with your fellow Dakkanauts, thanks!

Many players have not read the rules for FW units and army lists and are understandably skeptical about them, especially if they have in the past known people who only brought out the (small minority of) overpowered or underpriced units. But these units are the exception, not the rule. Most FW units are really not overpowered; quite a lot of the are actually overpriced and not as good as codex units, though they may look awesome and be very fluffy.

I'd have agreed with your points if you said something more like, say:

hypothetical person raising their concerns about facing FW units wrote:SOME FW items I've encountered in the past seemed overpowered. I would prefer not to play against FW stuff unless I get a chance to read up on it before the game; springing it on me just before game time after I've built my list would be annoying to me. I encourage players who build an army using a list from FW to also build the army in such a way that it can use the regular codex rules, so they get maximum utility and can play it in events where FW's not permitted.

Vaktathi wrote:FW use is always fine with me. Most players that have an issue generally either had a bad experience with stuff played incorrectly, or are too obsessed with "zomg not codex won't play!" or just don't really have an accurate concept of what FW stuff actually is.

Openers like this aren't entirely friendly either, though. While IME a lot of folks ARE ignorant about FW units, it's better to avoid negative charactizations like "obsessed with 'zomg not codex won't play!'"

Jubear wrote:Yeah I am sorry for wanting to play the game with the official rules and not some 3rd party crap. I also wont play custom units or count as armies so I guess that makes me a monster along with with every tournament organiser in the history of the game.

You are aware that Forge World is owned by GW, right? The rules they publish are an expansion to the 40k main system, and can be used. No one ever said you're a monster...we jsut think it's a bit unfair. I mean, I put a whole lot of effort into my codex IG force, and the DKoK player no doubt put a lot of effort into his. Flat out refusing to play seems to be just as bad as saying, 'Oh you're playing SPACE WOLVES. Well, I don't like playing that OP crap.'

If its just a game between friends then I have no problem with IA aslong as both players can access the stuff they want without proxying some god awfull "scratch built" IA unit

As has been pointed out many, MANY times in this thread, very few things from FW are OP. DKoK seem awesome on paper, but they're not as good as they seem. I fail to see why you hate forge world so much. I really can't see why.

Jubear wrote:Yeah I am sorry for wanting to play the game with the official rules and not some 3rd party crap. I also wont play custom units or count as armies so I guess that makes me a monster along with with every tournament organiser in the history of the game.

If its just a game between friends then I have no problem with IA aslong as both players can access the stuff they want without proxying some god awfull "scratch built" IA unit

There's a difference between official and tournament legal.

Tournament organizers have the right to veto anything they want. Forgeworld units are mainly veto'd because they aren't sold in a GW retail store. It's done for simplicity.

Forgeworld as an entity is part of Games Workshop. They do specialist models for the game, so they are completely official, and not third party in any way. Their books are extensions to 40k in the same way as a codex, and don't even require opponents permission any more than another codex, unless it's an experimental rule PDF from their website. These are also very clearly marked as experimental.

Now, whether you want to play against Forgeworld models is completely up to you, and I'm not going to get into an argument over it. However, just let me ask you this - you're playing Apocalypse. Someone plonks down a super heavy unit that's not in the Apocalypse rulebook. You'd not play against them? They're mentioned in the Apocalypse rulebook as suitable models for the game. I'd be annoyed if I brought a Harridan and got told I couldn't use it because it's only got rules in Imperial Armour, when it's perfectly suited to the game.