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Obviously there are a lot of complaints about the Chaos Codex. However, rather than simply complaining, I was hoping we could do something a bit more constructive...

... hence, I'm wondering, what would people like to see in the next Chaos Codex?

Comments such as "bring it back to 3.5" or whatnot doesn't help IMHO; Games Workshops got a different and much more simplified method of Codex writing these days and IMHO 3.5 would not fit with that. So I'd like to know what the (largely) dissatisfied Chaos Players would like in their Codex...

So, what would players like to see in the next Chaos Space Marine Codex?

Also, for me, having created this Chaos Space Marine (fan)Codex of my own - here on Dakka - I'm wondering whether I've hit the mark or missed it completely in making a satisfactory Codex. Please have a look! [/cheap plug]

Chaos units cost too much. Make them better for their cost, and legion specific rules would be awesome.
Also, the "simplification" of the codex really bothered me. There should me more special rules and unique characteristics about the codex.

If they're not going to include actual rules for Bloodletters, Plague Bearers, etc. being able to mark daemons would be nice. Also don't have a unit lose its mark just because the guy carrying a flag died.

Deathclaw Drop pods, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD. If nothing else gets changed, let us at least have something we already have.

oh and some kind of warsmith techmarine equivalent, those demon tanks don't just fix themselves, they're not that posessed.

Legion specific builds/god specific daemons...

I for example want the capability to create an army the reflects my Death Guard moreso than simply having a gak load of Plague Marines and a DP with MoN.
I'd like to be able to field "Plague terminators,Plague Lords,actual Plaguebearers and Nurglings,vehicles oozing disease all merrily capering forward under a cloud of filth and flies."

If that entails being denied acces to certian units/troops choices/etc ...then I'd fully accept that.

FITZZ wrote: Legion specific builds/god specific daemons...

I for example want the capability to create an army the reflects my Death Guard moreso than simply having a gak load of Plague Marines and a DP with MoN.
I'd like to be able to field "Plague terminators,Plague Lords,actual Plaguebearers and Nurglings,vehicles oozing disease all merrily capering forward under a cloud of filth and flies."

If that entails being denied acces to certian units/troops choices/etc ...then I'd fully accept that.

good call, like old Iron Warriors not being able to take cult troops/demons.

FITZZ wrote: Legion specific builds/god specific daemons...

1. This!

2. Plastic kits. Dreadnoughts, chiefly. I love the plastic demon prince that came out last year.

3. Traitor Guard rules.

Brother Heinrich wrote:Deathclaw Drop pods, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD. If nothing else gets changed, let us at least have something we already have.

oh and some kind of warsmith techmarine equivalent, those demon tanks don't just fix themselves, they're not that posessed.

They used to.... i miss paracitic possession

I want the old Word Bearers and Alpha Legion back.

I don't really have any other requests.

I'd like to see a return to a Legion specific focus, or at least not try and tie in "renegades" who really should be using C:SM lists with Chaos Icons, and a refocus of the CSM's as venerable ancient warriors, veterans of ten thousand years of unholy war, roused only to war when the greatest prospects for slaughter are at hand. Lots of Veteran Skills, USR's, rerolls, etc with relatively low model counts. Make the CSM's very scary individually. A World Eater Terminator should be something truly fearsome (thinking 42pts before any upgrades with just Powerweapon & TL Bolter, WS5, Furious Charge, Counterattack, Fearless, A3 base). Give us a return to the concept and feel of the 3.5 codex, even if not the actual execution.

Vaktathi wrote:I'd like to see a return to a Legion specific focus, or at least not try and tie in "renegades" who really should be using C:SM lists with Chaos Icons, and a refocus of the CSM's as venerable ancient warriors, veterans of ten thousand years of unholy war, roused only to war when the greatest prospects for slaughter are at hand. Lots of Veteran Skills, USR's, rerolls, etc with relatively low model counts. Make the CSM's very scary individually. A World Eater Terminator should be something truly fearsome (thinking 42pts before any upgrades with just Powerweapon & TL Bolter, WS5, Furious Charge, Counterattack, Fearless, A3 base). Give us a return to the concept and feel of the 3.5 codex, even if not the actual execution.

Agreed wholeheartedly, chaos is the greatest enemy mankind faces, so the rules their minions who have been fighting the Imperium of man for almost as long as it existed should reflect that.

Mostly I'd like to see things that either make sub-par units worth taking, or distinguish Chaos Marine units from their throne-slave counterparts.

Possessed that are either cheaper or worth their cost- or at least count as having assault grenades!; sonic blasters standard AND free on Noise Marines; bring back some of the unusual wargear like the Kai gun or the Needle of Desire, and maybe special wargear for Cult champions; fix bikers so that special weapons go back to replacing the bike's TL bolter; give Raptors Hit and Run and Daemonic Visage back; CULTISTS I want to run a Lost and the Damned style list so much argh

*ahem* rules for Doombreed, Doomrider, and Cypher would also be extra spiffy

where to begin...

1)Chosen as a CSM unit (CSM, termies raptors, bikes , havoks), which gives WS and BS 5 and a USR for free ( from the following: Furious charge, infiltrate, Hit and Run, counter attack), they have acess to all the armoury except rare items like deamon weapons, this uses one elite slot. Unless you take abaddon, they are 0-1.


2)CSM squads, as above, can pay to have one USR, champions come free if the squad is marked and the size is the gods number. The champion can choose the same weapons the chosen can.

3)Lesser deamons are summoned according with the HQ mark, if he doesn't have a mark, no deamons, if undivided, well here i have doubts, furies or any deamon they like ?

4) Greater deamons are always marked and can only enter by a champion with the same mark.

5)Noise marines come with sonic weapons.

6)Dreads get the old rules back, double the attacks or first shoot a enemy if there isn't one, they shoot you. You can pay so it isn't crazy.

7)Oblits go back to T5.

8)TS bolters ignore cover or a -1 penalty to the cover save.

9)More vehicle upgrades and you can mark them, deamon armour(+1 to all facings), tentacles of doom(CC attacks), a deamonic version of the POTMS, new weapons according to the mark, pus cannon nurgle, sonic cannon slanesh.

10)Psychic protection, especially with Khorne units, more psychic powers.

11)Lost and the Damned as allies.

12)DreadClaw drop pods with the current rules but you can charge from them.

13)and of course.....LEGIONS

A more worked on codex... I mean the layout.. the CSM codex is really a mess.

Redo most of the figurines... drop the half plastic half-metal kits.. they suck and are sooooo fragile..

Do something better with the Possesed SM... I never seen a so unreliable unit anywhere...

Be intelligent... I mean some of the things I saw make no sense in some codex...

ex: Eldar Ranger have fleet of foot... WHO WOULD WANT TO ASSAULT WITH THOSE...
and then assault centric unit like the Khorne Berserker dont have fleet of foot.. damn it they only have pistols.. let them assault after running they aren't good at anything else than assaulting..

btw: Scorpions and banshees dont have fleet of foot either... but DE wyches do... lack of consistency..

Deamon Prince are deamon prince... give them some love... they dont have any options beside having one psychic powers and wings...

Redo the obliterator Mini.. I'm gluing one and its a mess...

I'd drop the chaos deamon codec and unify them together... chaos and deamons go so well hand in hand :-)

Since the CSM are renegade SM.. they should have acces to ALL the same equipment as the SM.. drop pods.. all range of vindicators, predators and land raiders.

Oh and why not do minis for the chosens ?!

Im probably forgetting something but... thats enough for now.

Lazypete wrote:
ex: Eldar Ranger have fleet of foot... WHO WOULD WANT TO ASSAULT WITH THOSE...

Keep in mind that the current Eldar book was written in 4th edition, when there was no universal Run move, Fleet of Foot was the only way to get that extra Shooting Phase movement. It wasn't about assaulting, it was just about having more mobility in general.

Vaktathi wrote:I'd like to see a return to a Legion specific focus, or at least not try and tie in "renegades" who really should be using C:SM lists with Chaos Icons, and a refocus of the CSM's as venerable ancient warriors, veterans of ten thousand years of unholy war, roused only to war when the greatest prospects for slaughter are at hand. Lots of Veteran Skills, USR's, rerolls, etc with relatively low model counts. Make the CSM's very scary individually. A World Eater Terminator should be something truly fearsome (thinking 42pts before any upgrades with just Powerweapon & TL Bolter, WS5, Furious Charge, Counterattack, Fearless, A3 base). Give us a return to the concept and feel of the 3.5 codex, even if not the actual execution.

god, well said, i wish I could take a hypodermic needle and inject this statement into the minds leading GW.

Vaktathi wrote:

Lazypete wrote:
ex: Eldar Ranger have fleet of foot... WHO WOULD WANT TO ASSAULT WITH THOSE...

Keep in mind that the current Eldar book was written in 4th edition, when there was no universal Run move, Fleet of Foot was the only way to get that extra Shooting Phase movement. It wasn't about assaulting, it was just about having more mobility in general.

Thanx for the info.. it makes more sense... please GW redo Eldar quickly !! lol

- Chosen and Terminators which are comparable to Wolfguard
- Dreadnoughts which aren't useless
- Spawn which aren't useless
- ability to create cultterminators
- 1k Sons which aren't useless
- Raptors which aren't useless
- Daemonweapons which aren't useless ( yes, i too want to hit myself and do notthing for the rest of the turn 1/3 of the time, thanks Khorn, your weapons are truly the best...)
- more powerfull and expensive princes, they should become a truly powerful alternative to Lords and Sorcerers but not the automatical hq choice
- Posessed which aren't useless, random powers are crap unless every single possible power is worth the cost
- Bikes which aren't deeply meh
- Havocs which aren't deeply meh
- Raptors which aren't deeply meh
- Landraiders which are at least comparable to their loyalist version
- AV 13 for the Defiler, atm it is far too vulnerable for it's size
- All chaos special characters but Kharn suck, this needs to change

Add Codex Chaos Daemon army list.

Reduce cost of Possessed, Raptors, Bikes, and Havoc heavy weapons.

Make no other changes.

DarknessEternal wrote:Add Codex Chaos Daemon army list.

Reduce cost of Possessed, Raptors, Bikes, and Havoc heavy weapons.

Make no other changes.

And your reasoning for no other changes would be ?

Well it's already been mentioned a few million times but... LEGION SPECIFIC RULES

They don't have to have unique units but just something to make them different to play. Another thing already mentioned a lot is more ways to customize your army to suit one of the Chaos Gods, and more plastic kits are a given.

FITZZ wrote:
And your reasoning for no other changes would be ?

They're unnecessary. Chaos Space Marine is already an almost perfect codex.

The cost reduction I mentioned are the only real changes it needs.

The daemons are for fluff.

DarknessEternal wrote:

FITZZ wrote:
And your reasoning for no other changes would be ?

They're unnecessary. Chaos Space Marine is already an almost perfect codex.

The cost reduction I mentioned are the only real changes it needs.

The daemons are for fluff.

I disagree, the Codex is quite weak these days, even with cost reductions.

Add back legion-specific rules, to give CSM more character. Then, reduce costs for specific units (i.e., Havocs, etc.)

Also, being able to give marks to vehicles could be cool.

Unfortunately, GW seems to think CSM means Space Marines with ZANY RANDOM tables. I agree that Renegades are better as a paint scheme than a concept- C:CSM should focus on Legions. Otherwise, why wouldn't they be bringing the assault cannons, Redeemers, etc. when they turned?

Greater customization, especially in Elite and HQ units would be a good start. It seems off that Chaos, who reject the rigidity of Imperial doctrine would be less flexible than loyalists! And quit overpricing terrible options!

Cultists,Chaos beasts (warhounds, etc.), Spawn, and daemons (bother lesser and greater) should all be options. Marks should relate to the god's specific role and unlock upgrades. So the mark of Khorne might allow you to purchase +1 STR, +1 WS, Frenzy, 5+ save v, psyker powers, etc. for the model or unit while Slaanesh might give options of +1 init, +1 attack, fleet, or rending cc attacks, for example.

Dreadclaws universally. Even Nids get Mycetic Spores (which are basically MC versions of Drop Pods). Legion Rules, Traitor Guard and mutants (or cultists, at the very least). God Specific Daemons, but it should be limited to the Troop and FA choices. Bloodcrushers, Flamers, Fiends and GDs of any kind would be seriously overpowered in a Marine Dex, especially ones who can competently use an Icon.

One addition I would love to see since the days of the Daemonhunter codex: Customizable Daemons. It wouldnt be that hard. Use the normal Lesser Daemon as a base (with decreased cost, but also decreased toughness and strength) and have upgrades, like Fleet, Rending, +1 Strength, +1 attack, etc.... Nothing like Power Weapons, Feel No Pain, extra wounds or stronger invul saves. Rending and Fleet are already treadding on Slaanesh's toes (but are rather necessary so that they're not completely useless). Same goes for a Greater Daemon and would be an acceptable alternative to not having God-specific GDs.

Also, everything everyone else said.

Troop costs need to be rebalanced (A 5 man CSM squad has the exact same cost as a 5 man SM tac squad (after upgrading to include the sergeant that the SM get for free), but *none* of the special rules, or any other special rule to make up for that. Between that and not getting the free weapon upgrade in 10 man squads, there's a really blatant cost/benefit difference in CSM units, and this is really just the most obvious one.

Upgrade CSM equipment to be the same as the counterpart SM equipment, there's no reason for Chaos Rhinos to have less abilities or crappier weapons than SM Rhinos.

A cavalry unit (two really), to go with the mount options for the HQ units.

My two beefs with the codex:

WHY doesn't any of the special, named characters whom are CHOSEN by the chaos god(s) not have EW? I mean abbadon has it, whoopee, but a run of the mill space wolf fool can get it, but say, typhus doesn't?

Also, cultists. This satisfies the need to release a new kit for GW, so make it happen.

KingDeath wrote:
- 1k Sons which aren't useless
- Raptors which aren't useless
- Daemonweapons which aren't useless ( yes, i too want to hit myself and do notthing for the rest of the turn 1/3 of the time, thanks Khorn, your weapons are truly the best...)
- Posessed which aren't useless, random powers are crap unless every single possible power is worth the cost
- Bikes which aren't deeply meh
- Havocs which aren't deeply meh
- Raptors which aren't deeply meh
- Landraiders which are at least comparable to their loyalist version
- AV 13 for the Defiler, atm it is far too vulnerable for it's size
- All chaos special characters but Kharn suck, this needs to change

Quoted for Truth. I am relatively new to 40k, but after looking through some of my brothers old codex's (and some of his newer ones), the 5th ed CSM codex seems to fall remarkably flat. Out psychic abilities suck, lack of psychic hood or equivalent is horrendous, no feasible fast attack options, and horrible IC's. Our strength comes in our troop choices, which are real point heavy for what they can actually accomplish without paying extra points for Rhino or some sort of armor. I love my CSM and think they have a lot of potential, but I do think the codex needs some serious work.

On the subject of Daemon Weapons, why dont Daemon Princes have them? While it might kill them, a Bloodreaver would be so much more useful on a S6 MC rather than a S4 Termie lord.

As well, return of T6 Daemon Princes. I mean, even Mephiston and Casius have higher toughnesses, and they're still human! Hell Ogryn have the same toughness, and they're just mildly mutated humanoids. Daemon Princes, Chaos Warriors who have ascended through a millenia of servitude, should at least be a little tougher than a dimwit born with gigantism.