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I played a 1500 point tournament yesterday and the mission was MP deployment wad spear head. I believe myself a very good player but was outright massacred. Which brings me to ask can dark eldar be competitive against that build in that mission. He just castled and destroyed me.

I can post list later

Lists would help, as would not having typos in the mission/deployment type.

I assume you mean it was Victory Points with Spear Head deployment. You can probably outshoot your opponent and if it is Vulkan marines that means a lot of Melta and some TH/SS terminators. Melta has a 12" range so you should be able to hop that gap to assault. I probably would have just sat back and darklanced the heck out of him to make him move out. If you can wreck the LR and then hide you win by 200 or so VP.

For a standard Lance working backward you need 3 Pens to wreck, 3 hits to pen and 3/2 a shot to hit. That means 13.5 Lance shots to take down the LR on average (let alone immobilizing it which is slightly better odds). Three Ravagers gives you 9 of those shots, 4 Raiders gives you 13 Lance shots which should wreck the LR.

Depends on your list. A vulkan list should be able to be out ranged. It should be cake when you get up close. Give your list and his

Without seeing lists, all I can say is the major weakness of a Vulkan list is it's short range. He's going to need to get right up in your face in order to use his Flamers, Meltas, and Multi-meltas.

He, of course, expected that you would rush right at him, which you probably did. I don't know, because you skimped out on anything resembling detail. At any rate, when he castles, expecting you to make a bee-line into his guns, don't. Castle yourself. Counter castle. Make him break his castle and come to you. Once he's done this, and hoping terrain has forced him to split his forces up a little, you can move in for the strike.

If Vulkan is boosting their Multi-Meltas then Night Shields may be a good idea for your armour, as they 6" range reduction could take them out of the 2D6 penetration range.

The vulcan lists I meet usualy have a lott of dreadnoughts with melta/flamer in drop pods and landspeeders with melta/flamer.

The dreadnought is bad news seing it will mess up things in close combat. Also the landspeeders are good vs us since we don't reay care that it is av 10 as we ignore AV moast of the time. You just need to make shure you bring enough guns to get the job done! Or you can do some crazy close combat shenanigan but I have no idea how you put together a list like that.

Vulcan list:
HQ:
Vulcan

Elite:
Dreadnought w/ Assault cannon and HF
5 Hammer and Storm Shield terminators w/ land raider with MM attached
Troops:
5 man squad in rhino with combi flamer
5 man squad in razorback with combi melta
fast:
1 Land Speeder with MM/HF
1 Land Speeder with MM/HF
Heavy:
Autocannon predator with Las
TL Las with las

This is roughly the list I faced. Nearly everything was twin linked and he had plenty of range to support his flamers and melta's.

My list:

HQ:
Archon w/ incubi
Combat drugs; Agonizer; shadowfield; phantasm grenade launcher
Duke Silicus w/ warriors

Elite:
6 Incubi w/ raider that has a shock prow
Klaivex; demiklaives and onslaught

Troop:
10 wyches w/ raider
Hekatrix w/ agoniser
9 wyches w/ raider
Hekatrix w/ agoniser
10 warriors
splinter rack

Fast:
5 scourges
2 haywire blasters

Heavy:
Ravager
Ravager
Talos Pain engine
TL liquifer gun
TL haywire blaster

Believe it or not the best unit all game were the dam scourges.

I went first and moved up. His turn 1 he popped every vehicle but 1 raider with wyches. He castled in the spearhead mission hiding back and just shooting away from me. I think the whole game saw 0 combat. I was shot literally to death. I would of got one combat but incubi vs dreadnought leaves no victory possible.

I was using the duke to help secure a 6 on the combat drugs so every unit could start the game with FnP. Unfortunately, I didnt know roll it and then everything went dont hill from there.

The list would of been built a little better but should not have got slaughteredl

1 kp for me
8 kp for him when i conceded

I would have still sat back and shot, the only thing he can really hurt you with is the predators, that means shoot until they are shaken and then start smashing land speeders/Rhinos for the soft kill points. If he is in his opposite corner there is no way he has anything that can hit you in the other far corner and he is going to have to break his castle. Even a suicide deepstrike that takes down a vehicle would net you the win in this, he simply needs to close range with you so make him do it.

Your list is a major problem to start. You've got a lot of points tied up in your HQ, especially for 1500 points. Your list isn't super clear (does the warrior squad have a raider?), but it looks like 10 lances and a few haywire blasters.

Get more vehicles, smaller squads, flickerfields and sit back and shoot at him for a few turns. You've got better movement and range, so you should easily pick him apart. The preds are the biggest threat, followed by the landraider and speeders.

At 1500, I would drop the archon and incubi...that's a lot of points, and probably overkill as many armies won't have anything that warrants such a beatstick unit. Something like:

Duke
5 wyches, 1 hekatrix with venom, all haywire
raider with flickerfield
5 wyches, 1 hekatrix with venom, all haywire
raider with flickerfield
5 wyches, 1 hekatrix with venom, all haywire
raider with flickerfield
9 warriors
raider with splinter racks, flickerfield
ravager with flickerfield
ravager with flickerfield
ravager with flickerfield

That comes to 1127 points...you could add your scourges in if you want, or some more small wych squads. I've actually found some use in a small warrior squad or two with 4 warriors, one with blaster, and a sybarite with blast pistol, venom blade (in a raider). If dreadnaught drop in, they can fly behind, hop out and shoot rear armor.

Some trueborn could help, too. Maybe 3 guys, 2 with dark lances, in a raider? Or 3-4 with blasters in a raider? Seriously increases your firepower output.

In the end, I think DE should have the upper hand in this matchup.

I went first and moved one wyches squad flat out. Everything else in my army fired all lances. To little or no effect. I have thought the incubi might be too expensive. They handle the heavier units that I have trouble taking down. Although I might try smaller units and more darklances for lower point games.

I dont see how I out range all that las? 48" las and 48" auto cannon. Range was not my friend in this game. I was not shot dead by the melta in the game. It was the Assault Cannon and the 48" range weapons.

Well, assault cannons are 24" so if he was shooting you with those, he was playing wrong. I see three vehicles with 48" weapons, that can fire at a maximum of 4 targets. Surely you can get enough vehicles behind cover to negate that?

Your list is all over the place. Wanting to play like marines but DE are not marines. At 1500 points you only have 10 Dark Lance equiv.

The scourges aren't a bad option for extra firepower but reavers do it much better. A single talos without a webway portal is just a free KP honestly. The phantasm launcher on the Archon is unnecessary as he already comes with Assault grenades, and at 25 points for defensive grenades, it's not worth it.

I would suggest a list like this:

Archon - Soul trap, huskblade, combat drugs, shadow field
Duke

9 Wyches + Hekatrix w/ Agoniser - Raider w/ Flickerfield
8 Wyches + Hekatrix w/ Agoniser - Raider w/ Flickerfield (+ Archon)

4 Trueborn w/ 2 Splinter Cannon + 2 Shardcarbine - Venom w/ 2 Splinter Cannon (+Duke)
5 Trueborn w/ 4 Blasters - Venom

5 Scourges w/ 2 Blasters (If you want to drop the Blasters for Haywire Launchers that's your call..If you do, I suggest giving the Raiders Aethersails to get to the fight quicker)

Ravager - 3 DL w/ Flickerfield
Ravager - 3 DL w/ Flickerfield
Ravager - 3 DL w/ Flickerfield

This gives you a lot more tank hunting potential and great lots of shots on infantry with 6 Splinter cannons, 4 of them vehicle mount and 2 wounding on 3s. Archon (even at Strength 3) is a big threat, and with combat drugs..if you roll a 6 your unit of Wyches that's accompanying him gets 2 pain tokens. So before a fight even happens they are already Furious charge AND Feel no pain. BIG!

One more thing. DON'T USE ALL YOUR LANCES TO KILL 1 VEHICLE. Shaken is all you really need. Shake something then move on, if they can't shoot, then the majority of your paper airplanes are safe for another turn!

lonekthx wrote:One more thing. DON'T USE ALL YOUR LANCES TO KILL 1 VEHICLE. Shaken is all you really need. Shake something then move on, if they can't shoot, then the majority of your paper airplanes are safe for another turn!

This is the most important thing to learn, Tomb. He's got 4 lascannon units? (I assume the LR and Razorback have it, but you didn't specify). This means if you're sitting back, that's the most he can hit you with. If you Stun/Shake those vehicles (not too difficult with a lot of lances, and ridiculously easy with Haywire Blaster Scourges) then you don't have to worry about them, and as you said that's what killed you. Flickerfields/Cover make it where the few shots that do hit you don't necessarily do damage. After so many shots with him, you will start to whittle him down.

The problem is you ran straight for him, so he was able to castle. I've never seen a Vulkan list castle up and shoot from their deployment zone. Vulkan specializes in short/mid-range combat. Make him come to you, and if you get some key damage results, he'll come to you piecemeal, or not at all (either way is a win for you).

Tomb King wrote:Vulcan list:
Klaivex; demiklaives and onslaught

wasting some points there. A lot of points actually.

Otherwise your list has what 5 vehicles? Downside the incubi squad and put them in a venom. Your archon can ride with some wyches. 10 warriors without any upgrades is not very useful. Better to take 2 5 man squads with a blaster each in venoms.
The talos is a little slow for a fast army, I would swap it out for a ravager.

Night shields would be great against melta and bolters. Flickerfields should help you as well against his AT. Then you have to deploy right. Remember if he wrecks one of your vehicles it doesnt get removed it stays on the table with some cotton ball smoke blocking LOS to the things behind it.

He's taking the archon with the phantasm so the incubi can assault into cover without getting beat up. That's the correct call for incubi most of the time, but I rarely find myself wishing I had a squad of incubi in my list. More mobile shooty is always good, and that can take care of any troublesome units the incubi would deal with PLUS will take out armor as well. Multipurpose units are especially important at these lower point levels. If you go to 2000 or so, then you can afford to specialize with an assault beatstick like incubi.

Tomb King wrote:Vulcan list:
HQ:
Vulcan

Elite:
Dreadnought w/ Assault cannon and HF
5 Hammer and Storm Shield terminators w/ land raider with MM attached
Troops:
5 man squad in rhino with combi flamer
5 man squad in razorback with combi melta
fast:
1 Land Speeder with MM/HF
1 Land Speeder with MM/HF
Heavy:
Autocannon predator with Las
TL Las with las

This is roughly the list I faced. Nearly everything was twin linked and he had plenty of range to support his flamers and melta's.

My list:

HQ:
Archon w/ incubi
Combat drugs; Agonizer; shadowfield; phantasm grenade launcher
Duke Silicus w/ warriors

Elite:
6 Incubi w/ raider that has a shock prow
Klaivex; demiklaives and onslaught

Troop:
10 wyches w/ raider
Hekatrix w/ agoniser
9 wyches w/ raider
Hekatrix w/ agoniser
10 warriors
splinter rack

Fast:
5 scourges
2 haywire blasters

Heavy:
Ravager
Ravager
Talos Pain engine
TL liquifer gun
TL haywire blaster

Okay, great!

As a Master Dark Eldar player, I can tell you that by just looking at these lists, you should have won the game with this mission/deployment configuration.

You out range him, so all you have to do is fire at his vehicles, get a KP or two, then YOU castle and force him to come to you.

I went first and moved up. His turn 1 he popped every vehicle but 1 raider with wyches.

Wrong. This is where you lost the game.

Why did you go to him? Do you have a death wish? Just because you have a few CC units does not mean you have to CC to win the game.

To win the game, you need more kill points. You get those with your Dark Lances. Turn one you move within Dark Lance range ONLY. Pop a tank or two, then on your second turn you go back to your corner and win the game. Done.

I was using the duke to help secure a 6 on the combat drugs so every unit could start the game with FnP. Unfortunately, I didnt know roll it and then everything went dont hill from there.

No, everything went down hill when you decided to engage the enemy on HIS terms.

The list would of been built a little better but should not have got slaughteredl

Lists don't win games (unless you are playing top tier opponents), players do. Your list was fine. It was your strategy that killed you.

BuFFo wrote:

Tomb King wrote:Vulcan list:
HQ:
Vulcan

Elite:
Dreadnought w/ Assault cannon and HF
5 Hammer and Storm Shield terminators w/ land raider with MM attached
Troops:
5 man squad in rhino with combi flamer
5 man squad in razorback with combi melta
fast:
1 Land Speeder with MM/HF
1 Land Speeder with MM/HF
Heavy:
Autocannon predator with Las
TL Las with las

This is roughly the list I faced. Nearly everything was twin linked and he had plenty of range to support his flamers and melta's.

My list:

HQ:
Archon w/ incubi
Combat drugs; Agonizer; shadowfield; phantasm grenade launcher
Duke Silicus w/ warriors

Elite:
6 Incubi w/ raider that has a shock prow
Klaivex; demiklaives and onslaught

Troop:
10 wyches w/ raider
Hekatrix w/ agoniser
9 wyches w/ raider
Hekatrix w/ agoniser
10 warriors
splinter rack

Fast:
5 scourges
2 haywire blasters

Heavy:
Ravager
Ravager
Talos Pain engine
TL liquifer gun
TL haywire blaster

Okay, great!

As a Master Dark Eldar player, I can tell you that by just looking at these lists, you should have won the game with this mission/deployment configuration.

You out range him, so all you have to do is fire at his vehicles, get a KP or two, then YOU castle and force him to come to you.

I went first and moved up. His turn 1 he popped every vehicle but 1 raider with wyches.

Wrong. This is where you lost the game.

Why did you go to him? Do you have a death wish? Just because you have a few CC units does not mean you have to CC to win the game.

To win the game, you need more kill points. You get those with your Dark Lances. Turn one you move within Dark Lance range ONLY. Pop a tank or two, then on your second turn you go back to your corner and win the game. Done.

I was using the duke to help secure a 6 on the combat drugs so every unit could start the game with FnP. Unfortunately, I didnt know roll it and then everything went dont hill from there.

No, everything went down hill when you decided to engage the enemy on HIS terms.

The list would of been built a little better but should not have got slaughteredl

Lists don't win games (unless you are playing top tier opponents), players do. Your list was fine. It was your strategy that killed you.

Okay! So for the like the 6th time. I DID NOT HAVE RANGE OVER HIM! Last time I checked Dark Lance is 36" range. Las Cannons Beat that and autocannons beat that.
He had
3 TL las cannons
4 regular las cannons
1 auto cannon

Secondly:
ALL of my raiders except 1 fired on turn one. I did not bum rush him. I moved one flat out as a fail safe and to draw fire off of the other raiders. Unfortunately, it failed its cover save and was blown up the first time it was shot.

I can understand the concept of popping a few vehicles and running back, but that is only possible if your 3+ weapon hits and then rolls a 5+ to pin on his predators or landraider or even the dreadnought.

All i achieved from all my fire was immobolizing one rhino which was proving cover for the predators and removing the autocannon of of one of the predators.

None of the strategies you all have listed above would have worked unless I had good rolling and he bad rolling. He had range on me and the ability to TL some of his weapons that mind you will almost auto penetrate my vehicles and then get a +1 for open topped. Take into account I was facing a very good player. I saw no chance for victory after turn one. It was effectively over. Felt like I was playing against leafblower.

I would have reserved your army and Deep struck your entire Raider/ Ravager portion of your army on his doorstep by placing them on the side nearest to your table edge. The rest moves on from your long table edge shortening the distance to get to him and your skimmers provide cover to your advancing units. You took the Duke and opted out of using one of his best deployment options. Deepstriking in allows you to box him in, get side shots where ever possible AND delivers your CC units immediately within assault range for the following turn. He basically has a turn to stop it all or he's going to be locked down in his own deployment zone. IMHO, you lost this game based on poor deployment decisions. Your list is pretty deficient in shooting for 1500pts. However, you have a chance if you can take out his transports. In the beginning, your target priority order should be: Dread, Landraider, Razorback, Rhino. Killing the dreadnought saves your incubi, and popping the transports allows you to get your CC units at his infantry. The predators at this point are units you shoot later as you've already used the deepstrike to safely deliver your units to his doorstep. However, you'd still want to put the Raiders between the predators and the ravagers so the ravagers at least have cover from shooting. Does that offer some insight?

CaptKaruthors wrote:I would have reserved your army and Deep struck your entire Raider/ Ravager portion of your army on his doorstep by placing them on the side nearest to your table edge. The rest moves on from your long table edge shortening the distance to get to him and your skimmers provide cover to your advancing units. You took the Duke and opted out of using one of his best deployment options. Deepstriking in allows you to box him in, get side shots where ever possible AND delivers your CC units immediately within assault range for the following turn. He basically has a turn to stop it all or he's going to be locked down in his own deployment zone. IMHO, you lost this game based on poor deployment decisions. Your list is pretty deficient in shooting for 1500pts. However, you have a chance if you can take out his transports. In the beginning, your target priority order should be: Dread, Landraider, Razorback, Rhino. Killing the dreadnought saves your incubi, and popping the transports allows you to get your CC units at his infantry. The predators at this point are units you shoot later as you've already used the deepstrike to safely deliver your units to his doorstep. However, you'd still want to put the Raiders between the predators and the ravagers so the ravagers at least have cover from shooting. Does that offer some insight?

Yes thanks for the insight. I actually thought about deep striking in my entire army but since I rolled to go first I just deployed them as far up as I could and was going to just move them from there. I believe the best way to fight his tactic should of been to rush all raiders up moving them flat out. They would of got 4+ cover saves and he would of had to decide to shoot ravagers or the raiders. I didnt like his 12" move speeders with HF though and it through me off of my game.

Yeah, when your opponent outshoots you like that you are better off taking second turn most times. You really want to minimize the number of rounds he has to shoot at you - going off what you said he had - if you didn't have anything at all show up until bottom 2 he would have had:

6 fewer TL las cannons
8 fewer regular las cannons
4 fewer auto cannon shots

and, taking that forward, if the game ends on turn 5 you have robbed him of almost half of the total shooting that you suffered in your game!

And your stuff would have been in range for an early assault like Capt K was suggesting. Just because you can go first and deploy on the board doesn't mean you should - especially with a fluid army like the dark eldar.

Commander Endova wrote:Without seeing lists, all I can say is the major weakness of a Vulkan list is it's short range. He's going to need to get right up in your face in order to use his Flamers, Meltas, and Multi-meltas.

Isn't there an item you can put on your vehicles to lower the range by 6"? Reducing the range of a melta-gun to 6" really is a kick in the pants.

Isn't there an item you can put on your vehicles to lower the range by 6"? Reducing the range of a melta-gun to 6" really is a kick in the pants.

yes there is, but when you add it to many vehicles, it's cost prohibitive. In this instance it wasn't the melta weapons that was killing him, but he lascannons and autocannons...which laugh at nightshields.

blast the Land Raiders with Lances, then engage them in close combat. You'll get your hits in a lot earlier that Initiative 1.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:blast the Land Raiders with Lances, then engage them in close combat. You'll get your hits in a lot earlier that Initiative 1.

Or even better, blast the land raider with lances, and then blast the terminators with more lances. You won't get hit back at all :-)

Here is the quick tip for dark eldar. If it is good at fighting, shoot it. If it is good at shooting, fight it.

I would find away to fit haywire grenades on your wyches. This lets you assault and kill his dreads if you have to or tintercept them. You will shake and stun him and then take a 4+ for his attacks.

Tomb King wrote:Okay! So for the like the 6th time. I DID NOT HAVE RANGE OVER HIM! Last time I checked Dark Lance is 36" range. Las Cannons Beat that and autocannons beat that.

He had
3 TL las cannons
4 regular las cannons
1 auto cannon

Okay... You have more anti tank than he does at that range. He has 8 anti tank, and you have something like 12+. You can easily out shoot him. All you need to do was fire at his vehicles until they can't fire for a turn, then move onto the next target.

Secondly:
ALL of my raiders except 1 fired on turn one. I did not bum rush him. I moved one flat out as a fail safe and to draw fire off of the other raiders. Unfortunately, it failed its cover save and was blown up the first time it was shot.

There is no need to flat out anything as bait. Your entire army is easy to kill. Dark Eldar mech lists don't have much bait. You need every single anti-tank weapon you have able to fire.

I can understand the concept of popping a few vehicles and running back, but that is only possible if your 3+ weapon hits and then rolls a 5+ to pin on his predators or landraider or even the dreadnought.

Crappy rolls. It happens. Doesn't mean you did anything wrong. It just means that you were unlucky. Also, you are glancing all enemy vehicles on 4+. The second you glance, you stop him from shooting for one turn at the very least. Ignore that tank and shoot at an unmolested tank.

All i achieved from all my fire was immobolizing one rhino which was proving cover for the predators and removing the autocannon of of one of the predators.

Why were you even firing at the Rhino? That is your main mistake. So it gives his tanks a cover save, so what? Shoot at his anti-tank regardless.

None of the strategies you all have listed above would have worked unless I had good rolling and he bad rolling.

You need to check out my blog where i record my games for new players like you. You had one bad game, it happens, the world didn't end, move on.

He had range on me

Range does not equal win. You had more anti tank than him at that range. You just did a piss poor job at trying to bust a rhino you had no business firing at.

and the ability to TL some of his weapons that mind you will almost auto penetrate my vehicles and then get a +1 for open topped.

Which is why as Dark eldar, you aren't playing to pop tanks. You are playing to shot them from shoting and then getting into better shooting/assaulting positions. Don't dump all your fire into a Rhino that doesn't threaten you in any way possible.

Take into account I was facing a very good player. I saw no chance for victory after turn one. It was effectively over. Felt like I was playing against leafblower.

Check out my blog and see the games I play in. You may learn a thing or 50.

http://awesomesaucestudio.blogspot.com/

BuFFo wrote:You need to check out my blog where i record my games for new players like you. You had one bad game, it happens, the world didn't end, move on.

Yea, I just thought Ide come up with other peoples ideas on this match up as it is my first loss with my new dark eldar army and it was a tough one to take in as it was a major one. I don't think I mentioned I was an accomplished veteran player I am only new to DE recently.

I had approximately:
9 dark lances
They had a 66% chance of hitting and a 50% chance of glancing with a 33% chance of pinning. Making my odds for glancing 33% and my odds of penetrating around 22% per shot. Giving them a cover save will cut those numbers in half. Then on top of that I have to do a result that hurts them. I unfortunately rolled an immobilize and a weapon destroy. Still leaving them all firing. Glancing a 22% chance of them not shooting. Penetrating is roughly 13% chance of them not shooting or destroyed/wrecked.

Those percentages are nowhere near accurate. You have an 11% chance to glance, which has a 66% chance to stop them from shooting, a 16% chance to destroy a weapon, and a 16% chance to immobilize. You have a 22% chance to pen, which has a 33% chance to stop them from shooting, the same 16% chances to remove a weapon or immobilize, and a 33% chance to kill it. You should have had the mobility to angle past any cover he tried to get, and disabled or crippled most or everything that could reach you. You made the mistake of shooting at a rhino instead. You also didn't have flickerfields on the Raiders or Ravagers. 33% more survivability for 16% more points (less when you factor in the unit riding inside). That is an automatic buy. Night shields are also quite nice, even if slightly less so than the amazing flickerfield.