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Now before I ask this, I REALLY don;t want replies of "just don't go necrons", because thats not helpful!

Anyway, to the point of my question...

No matter how i utilise my necrons, through monolith teleportation, or using veil of darkness, I can't seem to avoid getting into combat and then suffering Sweeping advance. Typically in my lists I don't use C'tan, but I use 2 monoliths to try and keep my necrons out of combat, and as a last ditch defense physically blocking models from getting near me. In my last game I literally had to back my entire army into a corner, surrounded by my monoliths to ensure nothing could get through. It didn't result in a fun conclusion to the game, but if I hadn't done that, i'd have gotten hosed right away.

So is there any better tactics I can use? Any advice would be appreciated.

it's tough.

you really just have to keep doing what you are doing.

other then doing that, there really isn't much else.


them's the breaks of playing crons in 5th edition.

Instead of going for the monolith castle go for the destroyer wing. This list is a bit faster, and you can split your units up more without worrying about ranges so much. Speed bumb units like scarabs or tomb spiders aren't a bad idea either.

There really isn't many options for necrons, so its more about not taking inflexible ones, and using what you have to the best of your ability.

What point value are you playing at?

If I'm up around 1850 and above I like Destroyers and Monoliths. You've gotta have a C'Tan though if there's a lot of assault oriented armies in your local meta though... It sucks but it's kind of a fact. Also, the Monolith Wall works a lot better if you have a beastly monster on your side of it.

Greetings.

I play a Wraith Wing: 9x Wraiths, Destroyer Lord, Deceiver, 20x Warriors, 3x Monoliths at 2k points.

Believe it or not, my Necrons are thus far undefeated against a varying range of differing levels of competitive lists. What makes them work is having those nine wraiths and the destroyer lord working together as one unit, assaulting together, utilizing the monoliths for getting teleported out of combat, and using my Deceiver to destroy any true close combat units - a situation I wouldn't want to put my wraiths into. I'm happy to throw 9 wraiths and destroyer lord into 5-10 space marines, 20 ork boyz (even 30 depending on what's around them)....pretty much any non-deathstar unit. They do just fine at taking down transports as well with their STR6, which is good because my monoliths are teleporting/gauss fluxing as often as dropping particle whips (at least in the early game before my wraiths are able to consolidate into one unit).

There are two schools of thought on phase-out, and not getting caught in a sweeping advance fits into there. One school believes that bringing a lot of models is the way to go, the other believes that taking fewer models is the way to go.

Personally, I fall into the latter camp. My phase out number is eight, and my warriors start the game....EVERY game....in reserves. And then generally walk onto the board edge - I don't want to waste a teleportation on them in turn2-4 when I need my monoliths for particle whips / wraith movement. Read that carefully - my 20 warriors start the game in reserve. That means that it isn't even POSSIBLE to phase me out until all my units are on the table - and with the bulk of my army up in an opponent's face, there's not a whole lot they can do about my backfield where my warriors sneak on somewhere in that 72" range. If they get threatened, I teleport them through a monolith - which is also how I handle objectives - I teleport warriors onto them later in the game, and plop monoliths onto the ones I can't get to.

Warriors are among the worst units in the Necron codex, made even worse by their mandatory inclusion into every list. The best way to avoid having them get swept is to avoid having them on the table. If you're playing against a gunline army that isn't going to try assaulting your warriors.....then deploy them, provide supporting WBB and interlocking unit cohesion, but short of that, they go into reserve.

Destroyers are a niche build - there are plenty of players who use them. At the end of the day though, they're a single wound with a 3+ armour save, and it honestly isn't that hard to knock them ALL down in a single turn - no need to worry about WBBs. My Dark Eldar for example - if I go first, 11 destroyers are going to fall over - JUST FROM my splinter cannons. Before we even get into splinter rifles, blasters, or dark lances - none of which are going to get wasted on monoliths, nor wasted on warriors because I have superior range to them.

If you hide the destroyers behind the monoliths (not a perfect proposition because they're on flying bases and the monolith is a pyramid), they're either going to not shoot, or have to come out of cover - in which case they will *then* all fall over.

I like my wraith wing because while they are on 2" bases, they aren't elevated, and I can hide all of them behind monoliths, advancing them up the board safe from small arms fire. And depending on how you utilize your monoliths (and how many monoliths you have), these guys have a ridiculous 42" threat range with their assaults after all is said and done - they can get where they need to be and fast - with such high mobility, you can literally teleport them out of combat in one place where your enemy is moving into support - teleport them out 18" away to a monolith facing a different direction for an extra 6" of movement, deploy their 2" bases out 2", then move and assault a different direction half a board away. Nothing can keep up with them. I *love* blinking my wraiths around the board to assassinate parts of units, then blinking them somewhere else (almost mandatory given expected casualties and the necessity of dual WBB rolls to keep your main fighting force on the table and effective).

That's my personal style at any rate. My other army list is a destroyer lord, 20 warriors, 30 scarabs, and 9 tomb spyders - with nine of their own scarabs. Yep, I own 39 scarab swarms. =D Actually 42. Tomb spyders are BEASTLY, especially with an attached scarab, especially if the scarab is in cover, with the swarm special rule. That puts 50% of your unit in cover, and you've got a 3 wound model to absorb some hits.

General advise: If you want to avoid getting swept, don't put units that can get swept into harms way. You can't really sweep a wraith wing. At LD10, and with three models per unit, they either won combat, lost 1-2 models and are rolling LD8-9, or got wiped. They're quite potent.

Dashofpepper wrote:My Dark Eldar for example - if I go first, 11 destroyers are going to fall over - JUST FROM my splinter cannons. Before we even get into splinter rifles, blasters, or dark lances - none of which are going to get wasted on monoliths, nor wasted on warriors because I have superior range to them.

If DE were going first you'd be silly to not have your Destroyers out of LOS though(read: behind the Monoliths).

They can easily move into shooting positionon the Necrons' first turn.

___________________

In general though, I agree. Keep your Warriors safe. I keep one squad off the table usually; sometimes having one near your Monoliths makes the opponent want to try to get close.

Some useful advice from both you guys, so thanks. To give you more of an idea about what I run, here's my 1500 list:

Lord w/ orb, warscythe, veil

10 warriors
10 warriors

10 immortals

3 destroyers

2 monoliths

And at 2000....

The same, with these additions:

5 destroyers

Destroyer lord w/ scythe and orb

An extra 3 warriors.

I love the C'tan, but don't they just get owned by poison or units with rending?

Also, I like the idea of reserving warriors, but if they walk on the board edge mid game, won't they just be a target with no monolith to hide behind?

I do not think that necrons are bad.

Well, they are, but the problem as I see it is that the 3 units you want 3 of are caled scarabs, wraights and destroyers and they are all in fast attack. If you could take some of them as elite, fast attacl and heavy suport I think a lott would have loosened up for the codex.

Edit: Also dashofpepper, eather you have very bad players in your aria, or you are pulling us in the legg or you are scary good. I think it is the last one, so keep coming with these good posts here at dakkadakka. :-)

Monster Rain wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:My Dark Eldar for example - if I go first, 11 destroyers are going to fall over - JUST FROM my splinter cannons. Before we even get into splinter rifles, blasters, or dark lances - none of which are going to get wasted on monoliths, nor wasted on warriors because I have superior range to them.

If DE were going first you'd be silly to not have your Destroyers out of LOS though(read: behind the Monoliths).

They can easily move into shooting positionon the Necrons' first turn.

___________________

In general though, I agree. Keep your Warriors safe. I keep one squad off the table usually; sometimes having one near your Monoliths makes the opponent want to try to get close.

As I mentioned, there are different schools of thought on Destroyers. Monoliths simply aren't shaped in a wall fashion to block LOS to destroyers - especially from enemy skimmers, which is the example I gave here. Raiders can shoot between Monoliths all day long, and have 12" of movement to line up their shots to make sure they have visibility. I've maneuvered my Monoliths around the table in all different ways looking for the best way to screen units behind them - and the best I've come up with is a spearhead. _-_ formation.

One monolith in the front, two more monoliths to each side, slightly offset to close the gap between monoliths up to about 6" of height. It *significantly* narrows the gap inside the formation to place models, and a destroyer wing would certainly not fit...but I can fit a C'Tan, a destroyer lord, and about 5-6 out of 9 wraiths in there, with the others hiding solidly behind the bulk of one of the trailing monoliths - since I can phase through my own vehicles (or teleport to the front of them as needed), my wraiths can hide behind those monoliths all day long as they advance up the field if they need to.

@liam0404: C'Tans *can* get beat down by poison weapons. Especially those carried by Dark Eldar now. A C'tan is something that you hide until you're ready to use - either behind terrain if there's a clear line of advance open to you utilizing terrain or behind monoliths. One of the reasons I really like my army is that its themed - everything in it pretty much ignores terrain / phases through it / pretends it doesn't exist / etc. The most difficult part of using a C'tan (and the Deceiver is truly the better of the two), is GETTING them up to close combat. But once you're there, you're good to go. A Deceiver isn't to kill stuff persay, but rather to tie units up. Deceiver assaults a unit, kills a couple models, sits in combat through opponent's turn...and then at the start of the assault phase, he consolidates 2d6 in any direction you like - like towards another unit you'd like not shooting / threatening your army next turn. He'll get at least a 6" move and a 6" assault (remember, they're automatic 6" since he phases through terrain), on top of the 2d6 consolidate, giving you a potential 24" threat range per turn. But *until* you can get that God up there, its 6" + D6 per turn towards the enemy. Or if hiding behind a monolith, 6" per turn. The only time I really throw my C'tan out in the open is against Orks and other particularly assault-based armies (ones that don't have the ability to insta-kill the C'tan since he doesn't have eternal warrior).

@Niiai: The fact that my necrons are undefeated is a running joke, don't put too much stock behind it. Although I did beat Hulksmash with my Necrons. =D They're undefeated because I haven't taken them to any GTs, they've had mostly local competition (and some internet competition through Vassal). I don't believe for a minute that they'll remain undefeated. I could beat the **** out of my own Necrons with any other armylist that I play - even my Dark Eldar. And I *have* faced off against Necrons is a couple of Grand Tournaments - and while I enjoyed the games, and applaud their owners for daring to bring them to a serious competition, with their current codex, I will never be able to do more than smirk when I see them across the table from me.

But if you put together a great Necron army, and learn how to wield it skillfully, I daresay that you'll be more than most folks can handle.

Dashofpepper wrote:As I mentioned, there are different schools of thought on Destroyers.

Sure. I'm curious how the Wraiths do against things that aren't afraid of Close Combat or have a decent armor save, or particularly shooty Mech Armies. You should really do some batreps against some competitive Marine lists so I can see this strategy in action.

Dashofpepper wrote:Monoliths simply aren't shaped in a wall fashion to block LOS to destroyers - especially from enemy skimmers, which is the example I gave here. Raiders can shoot between Monoliths all day long, and have 12" of movement to line up their shots to make sure they have visibility.

Sure they might not stop everything but if they can cut down the amount of Destroyers that can be seen it's all helpful. Oh, and the Spearhead is a perfectly valid formation for them. When I field 3 I like to do the same thing you describe only with the Nightbringer and Pariahs instead of the Deceiver and wraiths.

you get +1 internet just for using Pariahs

Grey Templar wrote:you get +1 internet just for using Pariahs

Thanks buddy. They're not all bad, honestly. Four of them are easy enough to keep hidden and that 12 inch soulless bubble can really harsh someone's buzz. Terminators also vehemently disagree with being charged by them. I'm not saying that they're a great unit, but if you have a solid plan for them they can be pretty wonderful.

They were pretty awesome in this battle that I did a report for here.

my main gripe is that they only have 1 attack so they need to get the charge.

Yeah, 2 attacks base and maybe FNP or something and they'd be incredible.

The S5, T5 is nice but you're right; the 1 attack just kills them.

I love my pariahs, but in this age of FC and power weapons, tgey just never get to attack.

They need to be necrons ideally.

Yeah, the reason I bring them is for the Soulless ability.

Potentially boning Mephiston or a seer council for a turn is worth 144 points to me.

Pariah, I feel, are one of the most dangerous hit-or-miss units in the whole game. They take up a large number of points and don't get WBB, but have the ability to ignore all saves in CC, with a decent gun on them to. They can be very useful, but often get killed long before they get into CC as they provide a large target for many opponents. One of my more favorite things to with them is try to run them beside another hard hitting unit, such as a Lord with Lightning Field in a group of scarabs, so that both targets are getting shot at and neither suffers to many casualties. Tossing them behind a 'Lith might be better protection, but I find the fact that they can't get phased through it a problem.

Azure wrote:Tossing them behind a 'Lith might be better protection, but I find the fact that they can't get phased through it a problem.

That's exactly what I do.

They're safe and sound and out of LOS making everyone's units that get close very uncomfortable.

They're also the closest thing Necrons have to Psychic Defense, which is no small thing in this day and age.

Monster Rain wrote:

Azure wrote:Tossing them behind a 'Lith might be better protection, but I find the fact that they can't get phased through it a problem.

That's exactly what I do.

They're safe and sound and out of LOS making everyone's units that get close very uncomfortable.

They're also the closest thing Necrons have to Psychic Defense, which is no small thing in this day and age.

What do you do to get the into CC then? Or are they just psychic defense? Sure you can move a Monolith but then the whole bunch of stuff behind it gets exposed to fire and you've created a gap in the lines.

Most of the time the opponent is trying to get into CC with you, so they usually get a chance to get stuck in.

At least in my experience. YMMV.

Also, other than in extreme cases like the DE list that dash described Necrons are pretty resilient to shooting.

Ah, haven't fought against the DE yet, though I've fought with them plenty of times. Most players I'm up against are using alot of Mech heavy lists, so I try to get scarabs to pop the land raiders early on so I have something to shoot at and something to get into CC with, though it usually doesn't work out to well.

TriForce! No need to back into a corner just hide 2 squads in between 3 monoliths

I thought that you *had* to start with a minimum of 2 Warriors on the board, and only excess squads can arrive via reserve.

nothing says you have to have warriors on the board.

nothing says you have to have ANYTHING on the board. Reserving everything is a valid tactic allowed by the rules.

Hi,

I take 9 scarab swarms and just turtle behind them.

Also my two warrior squads have Lords with some debuffs on them like the one that takes away the attack for charging.

Also Another thing is to get chewed up by a DS unit and have everybody get killed so they get the WBB roll

Good luck with your crons

Grey Templar wrote:nothing says you have to have warriors on the board.

nothing says you have to have ANYTHING on the board. Reserving everything is a valid tactic allowed by the rules.

You just need to say if they are using the monolith or not, if they are using a monolith and you have none left the unit is destroyed so be careful

Gibbsey is correct.

I for one never specify that they're coming in from the Monolith Portal. I hate not being able to shoot the Particle Whip if I want to. You can always move them on the next turn if need be. Just keep your Monoliths within 24 inches of the table edge if this might be an issue.

Gibbsey wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:nothing says you have to have warriors on the board.

nothing says you have to have ANYTHING on the board. Reserving everything is a valid tactic allowed by the rules.

You just need to say if they are using the monolith or not, if they are using a monolith and you have none left the unit is destroyed so be careful

I've actually never brought my warriors in through a monolith. My warriors are a necessary evil to the game, only there because I'm required to have them. They occassionally play a role as fire support once they're in, if there's an opportunity for me to exploit that won't leave them overexposed to enemy reactions. But with a wraith wing, I either want to be particle whipping things, or teleporting wraiths through my monoliths, since they're doing much of the heavy lifting of my army - and I'm almost never leaving my wraiths in close combat with something for multiple turns because I *need* them to stay up - which generally means having to use the second WBB that I get from a monolith.

*EDIT*

Here's a fun statistic: When wraiths charge a unit of ork boyz, it takes an average of 72 attacks to bring down and keep down a single wraith.

The thought of a Wraith-wing really appeals to me.

@ Dashofpepper. You said you run a D-lord with them. I'm thiking you run him with a warscythe and resorb?


if ony necron models were't so frikkin expensive. I can't afford to buy anythign decent (Wraiths/immortals) until they come out in plastic multi kits. So for now i have to stick with my poxy 3 wraith unit.

I can't speak for Dash, but when I run a D-Lord I like to give him a Warscythe, resorb and a Phase Shifter.

It usually works out pretty well.