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Howdy Dakkites,


So me and a couple friends have created our own DIY chapter of space marines (which is non-codex) and my captain is Master of the Fleet. I had a thought to make his fleet more interesting and able to bring an impressive force to bear in space without adding the increasingly rare strike cruisers and battle barges, so at it's makeup I have added Imperial navy ships directly under his command. I have done my research and have found a couple sources indicating that Astartes have been known to have imperial navy ships in their fleets but figured i'd get some feedback from everyone. So what does the Dakka community think, is adding imperial navy ships to my fleet stepping on toes or supported enough to not be rediculous? (this question has nothing to do with BFC)


Thanks dakkites, any questions will be answered as soon as I check this again.

Seems fine to me, im guessing if an SM chapter master sees an imperial navy boss or what ever there called as a heritic or dumb then he would take over.

Yea, but here i'm going with that our chapters Homeworld and the surrounding system is completely under our control( Ultramar style) and one of the planets is a shipyard planet, which a certain number of the ships made there are used to bolster the chapter fleets. The manpower of the system is also used to raise regiments of guard that travel with the chapters fleets to attend to more protracted war efforts as well as go abroad. In short the system does not pay tithes to the imperium as they use their wealth to keep the chapter going strong, which is not uncommon.

Hmm not 100% sure on this one. But I think that one of the reasons why the Imperial Navy was created was to ensure that the Astartes didn't have control over them.

I guess it is possible though with a good explanation. I assume you would still have a Navy Officer in direct control of the vessels acting under the Master of the Fleet, who's able to voice his opinions and stuff?

Is this resource as a benefit of their homeworld, maybe they're based on a Navy Station and are it's protectors with access to whats available to them?

All good thoughts Pilau Rice, Yes the ships for the most part would have their own non-Astartes commanders.

And I pointed out the nature of the homeworld in the last post that you probably just didnt see.

I forget all the soucres i found as I did this research months ago, but an easy one is http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Fists#Noted_Elements_of_the_Imperial_Fists

If you go down to Notable elements of the Imperial fists you will see a Gothic class Cruiser (Imperial navy ship) is listed.

It would not be unreasonable for your chapter to have some amount of Imperial Navy design ships in its ranks. Just don't go overboard or the Inquisition will get antsy.

I'd have thought that the SM's would not use Imperial Navy ships and crew in any great numbers for any extended period of time. SM's are transported on IN ships and can even direct them occasionally.

However, a fleet based SM chapter would have its own ships crewed by chapter serfs. It might use IN ship designs, but to my mind would not use IN crews, etc.

What the dudes said above, and since some chapters are entirely fleet-based it makes sense that not every ship in the fleet is a antique battle barge or strike cruiser.

I guess a few ships would be ok (perhaps about 5-6),not including the ships of the company or chapter. Also, not too many or there will be many suspicious =I='s looking at you. (forgive the pun, I had to). Then again it would depend on the system and how you want to write the fluff for your chapter, perhaps every company would have Imperial ships backing them during engagements, with this maybe about 10 ships would be a good number, seeing as the Navy fleets can number in the hundreds or thousands (?).

Navy-type ships in the hands of a SM chapter? Unlikely. The SM have access to their own types of ships of the line which are specially designed to support planetary assaults and infiltrations. Strike cruisers and battle barges will be equipped with bombardment cannons to smash down planetary defenses and massive launch bays housing dozens of thunderhawks and drop pods, but they are not supposed to "pose a threat to the Imperial Navy", as stated in the Codex.
After the HH, the IoM transferred all of its battleships and cruisers to its Navy, and created new designs of ships just for the Astartes. Thus, a SM chapter is not supposed to keep any cruiser or battleship. But some legions did not really accept Guilliman's codex. Corax and Dorn, especially, did not want to dismantle what was left of their fleets. Thus, you could say that your chapter follows the teachings of these two primarch and keeps a few pre-heresy ships.

Conservationist wrote:I guess a few ships would be ok (perhaps about 5-6),not including the ships of the company or chapter. Also, not too many or there will be many suspicious =I='s looking at you. (forgive the pun, I had to). Then again it would depend on the system and how you want to write the fluff for your chapter, perhaps every company would have Imperial ships backing them during engagements, with this maybe about 10 ships would be a good number, seeing as the Navy fleets can number in the hundreds or thousands (?).

lol. No unfortunately very few imperial fleets number in hundreds. A typical navy task force will have a battleship as flagship, a couple of cruisers, one squadron of light cruisers and less than a dozen of escort squadrons, which would mean roughly 40 warships.

The SW kind of steal ships when theirs are destroyed... admittedly these are usually rebel ships but if the IoM want them back they aren't getting them. This means the SW have a couple of Imperial navy ships in their fleet.

Yeah the wolves have liberated several captured Imperial vessels from the ruinous powers/renegade fleets, these ships are then refitted for their use as they believe that capturing a vessel means it belongs to the space wolf chapter, the Imperial navy often disagree but what they gonna do?

Perhaps this new chapter the OP is creating may have descended from the Space Wolves, Raven Guard or Imperial Fist and keep a couple of battleships.

It's entirely reasonable.


Space Marines might have occasion to capture vessels belonging to a Rebel Governor or Admiral. as is Navel tradition, the winner gets to keep the spoils and a Imperial built ship is no exception.


Strike Cruisers arn't a single class of vessel, but is a broad term for a Cruiser sized ship that Space Marines use as a rapid response vessel. naturally, the ship would be retro fitted to have Drop Pod launchers and space for Thunderhawk launches.

Space Marines use all types of ships as Escorts too. all Imperial Escort ships can be found in some chapter's navy. only Battle Barges are unique to Space Marine fleets and even then, many chapters will use other capital ships as replacements for Battle Barges.



the Imperial Navy doesn't like the Astartes to have Navy ships as they view it as a possable threat to the Navy, they arn't thrilled with what space marines do have, but no one says no to a Space Marine Chapter master when he says "mine"

Conservationist wrote:Perhaps this new chapter the OP is creating may have descended from the Space Wolves, Raven Guard or Imperial Fist and keep a couple of battleships.

Imperial fists actually, which as i cited earlier have had a navy ship in their armada.

Grey Templar wrote:Space Marines might have occasion to capture vessels belonging to a Rebel Governor or Admiral. as is Navel tradition, the winner gets to keep the spoils and a Imperial built ship is no exception.


Strike Cruisers arn't a single class of vessel, but is a broad term for a Cruiser sized ship that Space Marines use as a rapid response vessel. naturally, the ship would be retro fitted to have Drop Pod launchers and space for Thunderhawk launches.

Space Marines use all types of ships as Escorts too. all Imperial Escort ships can be found in some chapter's navy. only Battle Barges are unique to Space Marine fleets and even then, many chapters will use other capital ships as replacements for Battle Barges.



the Imperial Navy doesn't like the Astartes to have Navy ships as they view it as a possable threat to the Navy, they arn't thrilled with what space marines do have, but no one says no to a Space Marine Chapter master when he says "mine"

A fair and well put together point, I'm not too intrested in going out of the norm here, I just wanted my Captain to have more to bring to bear in space.

But I was not the one that wrote that, you should adjust your quote, it was Grey Templar.

I was under the impression that crusade chapters, like the BTs, have hundreds of other non-chapter vessels with them.

vodo40k wrote:I was under the impression that crusade chapters, like the BTs, have hundreds of other non-chapter vessels with them.

Fluff wise there are very few crusading chapter like the BT, they are one of only a few with the political power and heritage to maintain massive fleets without the constant interuptions from outside organisations.

A vast number of crusader chapters are on peninent crusades so have very little of everything including ships.

Fleet based chapters however will have either one or two battlebarges or a starfort acting as a homeworld replacement, followed by few strike cruisers and lots of destroyers and frigates.

When you include navy vessels into your chapter fleet, don't try to include two or three navy battleships. Especially if you pretend they are captured renegade battleships since renegade battleships are extremely rare, extremely dangerous and always used as flagships for the biggest chaotic fleets. So your chapter would never have any chance of capturing a chaos battleship.
You could easily include a few cruiser squadrons though. They are a lot more common than battleships.

However, always keep in mind that a SM chapter would probably not use a captured ship since this ship would probably be useless to the SM. The Astartes fleets make use of fast and agile ships that require very few personnel. Their ships are made to strike fast and hard at a very precise target. Navy ships (and their renegade counterparts) are the exact contrary: they are slower and meant to annihilate entire continents with their salvoes. Navy ships would also usually not be able to carry SM drop pods and thunderhawks.
If a SM chapter ever captured an ennemy ship and kept it, it would probably keep it as a planetary defense vessel.

Laodamia wrote:When you include navy vessels into your chapter fleet, don't try to include two or three navy battleships. Especially if you pretend they are captured renegade battleships since renegade battleships are extremely rare, extremely dangerous and always used as flagships for the biggest chaotic fleets. So your chapter would never have any chance of capturing a chaos battleship.
You could easily include a few cruiser squadrons though. They are a lot more common than battleships.

However, always keep in mind that a SM chapter would probably not use a captured ship since this ship would probably be useless to the SM. The Astartes fleets make use of fast and agile ships that require very few personnel. Their ships are made to strike fast and hard at a very precise target. Navy ships (and their renegade counterparts) are the exact contrary: they are slower and meant to annihilate entire continents with their salvoes. Navy ships would also usually not be able to carry SM drop pods and thunderhawks.
If a SM chapter ever captured an ennemy ship and kept it, it would probably keep it as a planetary defense vessel.

And yet SW do it and make a tradition from it.

purplefood wrote:
And yet SW do it and make a tradition from it.

True.
I suppose this is due to the fact that SW are strictly non-codex. Maybe just after the HH, they refused to hand out their battleships and other navy-type vessels, which could explain why they are used to fight with these types of vessels as well as with battle-barges and strike cruisers. But the SW are definitely the exception in this case, not the rule.

However, I suppose a ship captured by the SW undergoes long and costly modifications to match the combat capabilities of a battle barge or a strike cruiser. For instance, installing or adapting launch bays for drop pods and thunderhawks is certainly necessary. Or automatizing most of the ships' vital functions to enable it to navigate with a limited crew.

In addition, SM battle barges are some of the most powerful ships in the galaxy. In terms of game, in a 1vs1 fight, very few ships will stand a chance against a SM battle barge. IMO, only Necron tomb-ships, space hulks and the Planet Killer would surely beat a battle barge in a duel.
An imperial battleship is clearly a lot less powerful than a battle barge. So I don't really have any explanation why SW like to use these kind of vessels.

I'm pretty sure a Battleship would wipe the space floor with a battlebarge. The battlebarge is a support vessel and although it is a formidable fighter that isn't its primary duty.
And, SW ships make use of serfs like most SM ships so they can have as large a crew as any other ship most of the time that crew is better at fighting off boarders as well.

It depends on the range.


Battlebarges have superior armor plating and short ranged gun batteries.

Battleships have superior long range weapons(sans Bombardment Cannons) and torpedos.



the Battleship has longer ranged guns and as such, if it maintains range, will win.

if the Battlebarge closes, the combined boarding attacks, Bombardment cannons, and gun batteries will rip the Battleship to shreds.


to compare BFG stats of an Appocalypse Battleship vs a Battlebarge.

Armor(6+ is best, 2+ is worst)

Battleship 5+(6+ front)
Battlebarge 6+ all around

Shields:

Battleship: 4
Battlebarge: 3

hit points:

Battleship: 12
Battlebarge: 12

Weapons:

Battleship: 6 lance batteries(port and starboard), Prow Nova Cannon, 6 Dorsal weapon batteries
Battlebarge: 12 Weapon Batteries(port and starboard), 6 Torpedos(Prow), 8 Dorsal Bombardment cannon, 3 Thunderhawk squadrons.

prow weapons can only fire forward. dorsal weapons can fire front side and rear.


granted the Battlebarge is 60 more points.

Actually i'd say use Chaos ships.
ships dating back as far as M35 were far better built then the more modern stuff you see SM's running around in.
one old chaos cruser like a modified STYX or something for planetary support and drops, it has powerful weapons and could launch assault boats and fighters. its also more in keeping with the older idea of carrier fleets over bombardment.

LordRavvage wrote: Howdy Dakkites,


So me and a couple friends have created our own DIY chapter of space marines (which is non-codex) and my captain is Master of the Fleet. I had a thought to make his fleet more interesting and able to bring an impressive force to bear in space without adding the increasingly rare strike cruisers and battle barges, so at it's makeup I have added Imperial navy ships directly under his command. I have done my research and have found a couple sources indicating that Astartes have been known to have imperial navy ships in their fleets but figured i'd get some feedback from everyone. So what does the Dakka community think, is adding imperial navy ships to my fleet stepping on toes or supported enough to not be rediculous? (this question has nothing to do with BFC)


Thanks dakkites, any questions will be answered as soon as I check this again.

In BFG standard IN escorts are not uncommon. I wouldn't see too much of an issue for cruisers/escorts, if its noted that these are crewed by marines/servitors/crew, NOT Imperial Navy personnel.

Grey Templar wrote:It depends on the range.


Battlebarges have superior armor plating and short ranged gun batteries.

Battleships have superior long range weapons(sans Bombardment Cannons) and torpedos.



the Battleship has longer ranged guns and as such, if it maintains range, will win.

if the Battlebarge closes, the combined boarding attacks, Bombardment cannons, and gun batteries will rip the Battleship to shreds.


to compare BFG stats of an Appocalypse Battleship vs a Battlebarge.

Armor(6+ is best, 2+ is worst)

Battleship 5+(6+ front)
Battlebarge 6+ all around

Shields:

Battleship: 4
Battlebarge: 3

hit points:

Battleship: 12
Battlebarge: 12

Weapons:

Battleship: 6 lance batteries(port and starboard), Prow Nova Cannon, 6 Dorsal weapon batteries
Battlebarge: 12 Weapon Batteries(port and starboard), 6 Torpedos(Prow), 8 Dorsal Bombardment cannon, 3 Thunderhawk squadrons.

prow weapons can only fire forward. dorsal weapons can fire front side and rear.


granted the Battlebarge is 60 more points.

Good analysis. I've made a couple of ships duels with a battle barge. One of which was a Battle Barge vs Retribution Class Battleship.
Basically, for two entire turns, the battleship hammered the prow of my ship while I tried to close the gap. Its weapon batteries made a mockery of my void shields but the battle barge had a strong enough armour to resist the salvoes.
During the third turn, I was close enough to launch torpedoes and use my bombardment cannon blewing up the battleships' shields and inflicting several damage points.
During the fourth turn, I was able to launch my thunderhawks, I used them as boarding crafts and crushed the battleship in two turns.

I think it summarizes the abilities of the battle barge: if you close the gap with the ennemy, you win. And the chances are you will probably close the gap sooner or later since battle barges can catch up with the fastest battleships in a few turns.

Melonfish wrote:Actually i'd say use Chaos ships.
ships dating back as far as M35 were far better built then the more modern stuff you see SM's running around in.
one old chaos cruser like a modified STYX or something for planetary support and drops, it has powerful weapons and could launch assault boats and fighters. its also more in keeping with the older idea of carrier fleets over bombardment.

A chaos ship from the heresy or even M35 by its very nature would be unusable by loyalist space marines due to the fact that it would be nearly totally corrupted.

BluntmanDC wrote:

Melonfish wrote:Actually i'd say use Chaos ships.
ships dating back as far as M35 were far better built then the more modern stuff you see SM's running around in.
one old chaos cruser like a modified STYX or something for planetary support and drops, it has powerful weapons and could launch assault boats and fighters. its also more in keeping with the older idea of carrier fleets over bombardment.

A chaos ship from the heresy or even M35 by its very nature would be unusable by loyalist space marines due to the fact that it would be nearly totally corrupted.

In addition, if the ship turned renegade it is probably because there was a malfunction in its gellar fields or warp counter-measures. So using this ship would not only be difficult but dangerous for the SM crew.

Well, why not have the Chapter fluff be something about how this Chapter specializes in boarding actions? That way, there's a reason for a Space Marine naval squadron.

BluntmanDC wrote:

Melonfish wrote:Actually i'd say use Chaos ships.
ships dating back as far as M35 were far better built then the more modern stuff you see SM's running around in.
one old chaos cruser like a modified STYX or something for planetary support and drops, it has powerful weapons and could launch assault boats and fighters. its also more in keeping with the older idea of carrier fleets over bombardment.

A chaos ship from the heresy or even M35 by its very nature would be unusable by loyalist space marines due to the fact that it would be nearly totally corrupted.

i don't think that was the point, the point i think was using the models saying they're still loyalist