Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Without going into specifics, I've managed to sample the new Grey Knights codex. Now I understand that these guys are elite daemon hunters (and granted I don't know what most of the wargear does), but the amount of anti daemon stuff is.... frightning. Heck,even against other MEQ, the new codex seems fearsome.

Assuming the stuff in the leak is legit, can anyone see a way for Chaos Daemons to defeat any list this codex can produce?

As a Daemon player, i'm massively concerned - not that it will stop me trying!

meh,

Chaos Daemons were never really competitive anyway. If you're a hard-core WAAC player who wants to win every single game then I reccommed Space Wolves or Blood Angels.

I'm starting a pure Tzeentch Daemon Army for the fluff and the fun. I'm not a WAAC player though, you might be different.

Was there ever really a beginning?

Oh generally i'm a fun player - but I suspect that it won't even be fun to pit my Daemons against the GK now.

My Chaos Daemons army is the biggest army I have. We're not competitive in the SLIGHTEST. I would say it's a kick when we're down, except there was no moment when daemons were standing. We're more "kicked in exactly the same position we've always been".

Really, Daemons are ALL about the fluff and the models.

I like that the old Daemonhunters book had that bit of extra rules to make the game fair against daemons - having Without Number of sorts for lesser daemons was a nice balancing mechanic. I can only hope that such a rule is floating around somewhere in the parts of the codex that aren't online.

Brother SRM wrote:I like that the old Daemonhunters book had that bit of extra rules to make the game fair against daemons - having Without Number of sorts for lesser daemons was a nice balancing mechanic. I can only hope that such a rule is floating around somewhere in the parts of the codex that aren't online.

If they do, then GK vs CD is a perfect set-up for the all round defence mission from the BM book, and would most likely be a game i'd love to watch.
If there isn't any such rule, and there ends up being that much anti-daemon kit/rules... then most GK vs CD match-ups will be sickening to watch.
Theres little fun in watching a puppy get repeatedly kicked in the face by a grey/silver power-armoured boot with a large =I= stencilled on the toecap.
(yes i'm referring to daemons as puppies)

I really didn't mind the codex creep until this. I'm a player who sticks to his armies, and doesn't jump on bandwagons. I play Templars, Necrons and Daemons. I don't think i'm a WAAC player, and time and again I thrash new codexes with my older ones. I havent lost to space wolves or blood angels with my templars - even my necrons get a good amount of wins.

Daemons have always been fun to play, primarily because of their fun rules like Daemonic assault etc, so you never know quite what you are going to get during a game.

Now though... even if I play the most blinding game ever, and have masterful tactical plans - I don't think it will be enough to survive - and that's not good enough in my opinion. I know this is based on a "test" codex, but i doubt it will change that much.

Surely it signifies a problem when you're beaten before you put a model on the table you know?

Chaos Daemons was written during the period when GW decided to simplify (read: NERF) and generalize the codexes for much more simpler lists. Almost all of the codexes from this era suffers in one way or another (either fluff, cost, or both). Daemons will be fearsome when they get released again, but that will be in the far future, something we wont see for at least a good few years to come.

Time will tell how far GW bent the Grey Knights toward being specialized in demon slaying. I really am not a fan of rock paper scissors in the meta sense, where this army hard counters that army and that's just how it is. That kind of dynamic needs to be limited to units themselves. As a mono-Nurgle player they could even go as far as to stuff some of what I'm packing, but we'll just have to wait and see.

My mono-Khorne has only ever won against Necrons. Maybe they're prepping GK for a CSM-Daemons mash-dex with legions? lol if only.........

I'd say that yeah, daemons are dead as a competitive army. Then again, they never were a competitive army, were they?

Daemons are competative, just not near the top tier due to the randomness they suffer from.

I for one will be dragging mine back off the shelf when the new GK fanboy craze hits the shelf

I played a game against daemons with orks on vassal the other guy. I got whacked.

Orks can't shoot well but assault well, not nearly as well as daemons do. Everything has IV save and can't be insta-killed. They're a good match-up for Orks.

Matt Ward: destroying non marine armies one update at a time

bucheonman wrote:I played a game against daemons with orks on vassal the other guy. I got whacked.

Orks can't shoot well but assault well, not nearly as well as daemons do. Everything has IV save and can't be insta-killed. They're a good match-up for Orks.

Try bringing some Shoota boyz and you'll see about 3/4s of the Daemons you face fall like flies. The Daemon's main weakness is that a large part of their army has a pathetically low save, despite it being invulnerable, and that they cant charge on the turn they come in. Stay out of range and you'll destroy them.

Which is why Flamers of Tzeentch are your friend.....

Flamers are nice, but i rather throw a full unit of fiends or seekers at an ork mob and watch it vanish.

Quick, simple and it doesent risk flamers being killed.

Flamers are SUPPOSED to die - the big question is what they take with them before they go


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and youre right - seekers are ace! I run a unit of 20. Mmmm 100 rending I6 attacks. And you can keep them in cover too, since they have a 24" threat range.

And in an ork army it isnt a 6 point basic model.


Great, they have flame templates, thats not the real deal.
Ignoring saves and cover are what makes them great.
Why would you waste them on a 6 point model with a 6+ save?

Which you wont wipe out and will charge you next turn?



Against orks i rather take slaanesh daemons.
Flamers are nice, but 1 trick ponies.
Seekers / fiends / nettes can tear through units quickly and move onto the next.

I dont know where you got the impression id use flamers on Orks ( i didn't say that in my post at all - I meant that flamers mitigate the weakness of not being able to assault when DSing, and I think that using them against orks would be a gross misuse of them).

Flamers should be introduced to: (this list isnt exhaustive

MEQ units
Terminator Units
Sanguinary Guard
Nobs
Incubi

For maximum effect. There is always something worth targetting with flamers on the table.

Well your post, which came after mine, seemed to indicate flamers as a good way of catching orks trying to stay out of combat.


(there's one sentence I never thought I'd say)

My bad, I definately DON'T think flamers are good against boys!

Flamers are definitely best used against Marines and better. They're wasted on IG infantry and worse. Of course, sometimes they can be good against horde armies: termagaunts that have poisoned attacks in a horde of 25...those need to be flamed or they will rape a daemon army. But yeah, against ork boyz something Slaaneshy needs to be brought to the table

On topic, I don't think this is the end for chaos daemons: I think people will stop playing them until the Grey Knights hype goes down, people will forget how to deal with them, and they'll make a comeback. One of the best things about Daemons is they are different from EVERY army out there in a vast way and unless an opponent is expecting to play against them, they just won't be able to handle them. When I first brought them to a tournament, my first 40k tournament ever, I ransacked everyone-including a friend who took 10th place in the LA GT a few years back with Dark Angels. I tabled my friend and he was stupefied at how well they perform when they aren't expected. It's one thing to be able to play and plan to face marines, it's another to face an army completely different from everything else out there.

So, before the GK's, Daemons usually won against any army that didn't specifically prepare for them.

Now, with GKs, the same will be true, except GKs won't have to prepare for Daemons.

Lulzy.

my 90 daemonettes, skarbarand and 18 fiends will give em a run for their money

I see well-played Daemons run roughshod over a lot of people at tournaments in the NE US. I faced a really solid one at the Ironman GT last summer run by yermom, I faced another really good one at the New England Club Challenge at Templecon earlier this month. A good one won the 28 player tournament I played in yesterday.

I think blood crusher spam will always be good. they are the best at clearing anything on foot. its such an ass trying to fight those things off with a fate weaver.


I hate bloodcrushers so much >:{

liam0404 wrote:My bad, I definately DON'T think flamers are good against boys!

Quote this out of context forever.

They should say that when daemons play grey knights the whole list comes down in the first wave and maybe re-roll the scatter dice once per unit, or on your favoured wave