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On Warseer I keep reading this:

"For his point cost, you could buy 3 ordinary Haemonculi and get more use out them than you will Urien because of the number of pain tokens they dish out. The only benefit to fielding Urien is that he’s harder to kill and goes well with Grotesques.
It’s not like you’ll go home after fielding Urien and cry into your pillow, however. He’s a solid choice for a coven themed list if you don’t want to go 6 Haemonculi."

Isn't Haemonculi a single full HQ choice? So you would only be able to run 2 in a 2000 pt list right? Are they like Heralds in a chaos daemons list where you can take 2 to full 1 HQ slot?

I would love to run more than just 2 Haemonculi but I don't know if that's possible. Also what are the advantages to running 6 Haemonculi if you can do this? They seem be to a really good value for 50 points.

I believe its 3 haemonculi per 1 Hq choice.

much like 2:1 on Daemon heralds and Space Wolf HQ's.

So you can start the game with 6 pain tokens to 6 of your units? Wow, that's pretty sweet.

To expand my question a little bit how would one create a WWP Haemonculi Coven list? I want to build a list around Grotesques, Wracks, and run 3x Talos. Do you guys even take any raiders or does literally everything come out of WWPs?

Well that is the trick and by as today there are no good plans on this. Moast things would work but you want your list to be abel to survive against a battlecannon, and that is where it gets tricky. ;-)

I know how a Traditional Kabal works.

3 Ravagers, everything in Raider/Venoms, alpha strike and zoom around the entire game killing things.

But I don't know how a WWP Haemonculi list works. No raiders? No Venom? Does everything come out of WWPs?

You don't see a lo of pure coven WWP list because they don't have fleet so aren't as fast. That means you'd need to have Raiders or Venoms to dump the Heamonculus off and you'd need two at least because you don't want short range, non-fleet reserves having to walk on. You would have to have Ravagers for AT because other than combat you wouldn't have anything in a pure coven list.

Basically, a coven list is tough but because of AT issues it has some huge handicaps as a pure list, just like wych cult forces. But at least they have haywire grenades.

What I like to do is put 9 wracks with a haemy in a raider, or 4 wracks with haemy in venom, turboboost as far as you can go turn 1, prefereably behind cover and then drop the portal turn two. you could run an all footslogging list but I have found it to be painfully slow, with great difficulty getting to objectives when you need to, and if the enemy is mechanized it will be hard to get your footslogging wracks and grots into cc to blow them up. Its the one time an opponent can run circles around "the fastest army in the game." But if you like the idea go for it. Taloi can be amazing with tw heatlance or haywire blaster and can mince a lot of enemies. Just remember T7 is only good until it faces a powerfist/ lascannon/ railguns. Then they die in 1, or 2 turns, if youre lucky.

Anyone else?

If I'm going to run 3 Talos I can't run Ravagers. What do I do for AT?

If you don't want to take Ravagers, you kinda shafting yourself. If I did a coven list, I would have 2 haemys with 4 wracks in separate raiders. Turn one move 12 and jump out as far as you can to get distance. With pitched battle this is going to work out to be about 27 inches and the portal. so you would have a 12 in threat bubble around that. Anyone who knows what they are doing will either surround the portals (thus making you walk on the board edge) or back away from the portals.

Most WWP lists that I see use wyches and beasts since they have a much larger threat range. It is going to be very important that you drop at least one portal turn 1 about half of your reserves will be walking on from the board edge.

If you are intent on making a coven list I think a raider list would do better that way you have anti tank from your transports. The Pain Engines are not that good, they are not fast enough to keep up with you skimmers and without an invuln save missiles will shred them. It could work but I doubt it will be super competitive. Good luck though, I am interested to see how a pure coven list will work.

Well all the Talos would come out of WWP hopefully straight into Assault to gain a pain token (They're gonna all be armed with Heat Lance). The two most prominent unit in a Haemonculi Coven is Wracks and Grotesques so I'll run 2 full squads of Grotesques with a Haemonculi straight out of a WWP

I think having 4 raiders with 10 Wracks each (2 or 3 with Haemonculi) works. I'll drop hopefully 3 WWP turn 1. 1 question what happens if I don't get the first turn - am I supposed to just reserve everything?

I'll need as much AT as possible so I'm thinking 3 squads of warriors with DL & Blaster in raiders?

Fill up my last elite slot with Trueborn w/4 blasters in a raider?

I should probably take at least 1 squad of beastmasters right? since pound for pound they are better than Wyches.

I would pick a Beastmastersquad with 3 heams. Give them all different wargear and you can allocate all your wounds to different models. you can even attach 6 of them!!!!! only cost you about 600 points...!!! 8)

Give your Talos the haywire blaster so you can cripple the tanks before charging them.. not the best list but still fun..

If you get second I would deploy the WWP raiders and pray. By reserving everything half your stuff will not even make to your target. The major problem with WWP like I said is that when someone drops the WWP, its easy enough to back 12 inches away from it. Wracks are hard to kill, but out in the open they will go down like a date on prom night.

For elites I prefer 3 trueborn with 2 dark lances and a venom, but I think a raider would do better in your list, that way the trueborn stand back in cover and the raider skims around popping tanks and you do not put 2 kill points within 18 inches of your opponent.

I agree with what Shogun said, Beastmasters would really be nice in this list, but I understand that it goes against your Coven theme. Maybe make them "flesh beasts" or something similar.

Savist wrote:

For elites I prefer 3 trueborn with 2 dark lances and a venom, but I think a raider would do better in your list, that way the trueborn stand back in cover and the raider skims around popping tanks and you do not put 2 kill points within 18 inches of your opponent.
.

I can't take 3 trueborn because Haemonculi Coven is all about Wracks and Grotesques. Grotesques are elites, I would take up at least 2 slots with them maybe even all 3.

I can't see why beast-masters can't be in a pure Coven list. It's like not the other Fast Attack choices are Coven-specific. The problem with Venoms is that they are only really good for Trueborn OR Incubi and they are both elites so you'll run 3 Venoms at most and honestly most of the time I like to run my HQ with those since its fluffy meaning no Venom since it can only carry 5 guys.

Back to the Coven list: How can I add more AT without using Trueborns? Warriors & Raiders?

well if you dont want to take ravagers then your AT is from Talos and Raiders. Personally I wouldnt run a WWP list. The more of your army is mounted the more DL you will have.

if you have 2 talos and 7-9 raiders you wont be that hard up on anti tank. Also grotesques can penetrate most vehicles(with haemi they have str 6 when charging and lotta attacks) so perhaps give one of their raider sails and run behind enemy lines.

Scourges are somewhat haemi oriented(that is where they got their wings). I think you could convert up some scourges that look more like wracks and take them.

Start converting Raiders to have wrack crew.

DorianGray wrote:

I can't see why beast-masters can't be in a pure Coven list. It's like not the other Fast Attack choices are Coven-specific.

Reread the fluff page for Scourges.

My coven list includes two squads of Scourges with Haywire Blasters. Stun/Immobilize vehicles, then assault with your Taloi/Grotesques.

Also, "coven-specific" is all in how you play/model it. I include one large foot Warrior squad with two dark lances (plus Sybarite and PGL) Sure, it's a choice originally based on making the list better (21 FNP bodies in cover with Defensive grenades and LD9) but Haemonculi Covens are not ONLY Wracks/Grotesques. They're anyone who they can give pain/pleasure to.

DorianGray wrote:

Savist wrote:

For elites I prefer 3 trueborn with 2 dark lances and a venom, but I think a raider would do better in your list, that way the trueborn stand back in cover and the raider skims around popping tanks and you do not put 2 kill points within 18 inches of your opponent.
.

I can't take 3 trueborn because Haemonculi Coven is all about Wracks and Grotesques. Grotesques are elites, I would take up at least 2 slots with them maybe even all 3.

I can't see why beast-masters can't be in a pure Coven list. It's like not the other Fast Attack choices are Coven-specific. The problem with Venoms is that they are only really good for Trueborn OR Incubi and they are both elites so you'll run 3 Venoms at most and honestly most of the time I like to run my HQ with those since its fluffy meaning no Venom since it can only carry 5 guys.

Back to the Coven list: How can I add more AT without using Trueborns? Warriors & Raiders?

Sorry I misread what you put, I thought you meant true born with blasters. It seems to me that beast masters area Wych specific unit since they fight in the Wych arena. Scourges are good as other people have said they could bring some good anit-tank. To keep with you theme and still have anit-tank I suggest give raiders to all your squads. But if your trying to do a pure "fluffy" coven list I would not worry about stacking anti-tank and just play other people who have fun or fluffy lists.

Well the reason why I thought Scourges were not fluffy is because they are all rich Dark Eldar/aristocratic who paid Haemonculi for the wings but hang out on the upper spires rather then the under-city. I figured they would hang around more with other Aristocratic Eldar like Archons/upper class and fight inside their traditional Kabal armies...

but whatever.

Scourges can get 4 Dark Lances!

That can solve my AT problem right there. Take 2-3 squads of them. The bad thing is they have to come out of a WWP otherwise they'll get shot to death easily.

Can they take a Raider?

DorianGray wrote:Well the reason why I thought Scourges were not fluffy is because they are all rich Dark Eldar/aristocratic who paid Haemonculi for the wings but hang out on the upper spires rather then the under-city. I figured they would hang around more with other Aristocratic Eldar like Archons/upper class and fight inside their traditional Kabal armies...

but whatever.

Scourges can get 4 Dark Lances!

That can solve my AT problem right there. Take 2-3 squads of them. The bad thing is they have to come out of a WWP otherwise they'll get shot to death easily.

Can they take a Raider?

Jump Infantry can't take vehicular transport.

In terms of fluff - all Dark Eldar need suffering to survive, battles to fight, victims to capture and torture - Scourges aren't any exception.

But Dash you run a boring traditional Kabal list since you play to win WAAC

but how would you run a Haemonculi Coven list that is as competitively as it can be?

I neither play a kabal list, nor am a WAAC gamer.

I'd urge you to revisit apparently everything you don't know about me.

DorianGray wrote:But Dash you run a boring traditional Kabal list since you play to win WAAC

but how would you run a Haemonculi Coven list that is as competitively as it can be?

Well if you insult the people that are trying to give you advice, you may want to just try and do this yourself. Some people enjoy running Kabal / Wych Cult lists, if you don't like it then that's your opinion, it's not a negative thing to run one.


Also, don't take Dark Lances on Scourges. They need something they can move and fire with.

Dashofpepper wrote:I neither play a kabal list, nor am a WAAC gamer.

I'd urge you to revisit apparently everything you don't know about me.

My apologies! I thought being such a high ranked 40k player probably meant you min-max your lists, and play to win. Sorry if you're not.

I plan to build a traditional Kabal list myself, I wasn't saying running a Kabal was a bad thing. What sort of list DO you run?

Here is the idea behind my 6 Haemy list with a WWP.

Haemy, Agoniser, Liquifier, WWP (rides in raider w/wracks
Haemy, Agoniser, Liquifier, WWP (walks with wracks)
Haemy, Agoniser, Liquifier, Shattershard (rides in Grotesque #1 raider)
Haemy, Agoniser, Liquifier, (rides in Grotesque #1 raider)
Haemy, Agoniser, Liquifier, (rides in Grotesque #2 raider)
Haemy, Agoniser, Liquifier, (rides in Grotesque #2 raider)

3 Grotesques, Liquifier, Abberation w/gauntlet, Raider, EA, NS
3 Grotesques, Liquifier, Abberation w/gauntlet, Raider, EA, NS
Mandrakes (optional)

10 Wracks, Acothyst (objective camper/wwp Haemy escort)
9 Wracks, Liquifier, Acothyst, Raider, NS, FF, (camper WWP Haemy escort)
10 Wracks, 2 Liquifiers, Acothyst, optional weapon, Raider, NS, FF
10 Wracks, 2 Liquifiers, Acothyst, optional weapon,

5 Scourges, 2 Heatlances
5 Scourges, 2 Heatlances
Bikes are optional

Talos,
Talos,
Chronus

Simply, the 2 haemys are escorted by 2 squads of wracks. Squad with raider is for aggressive portal positioning with the idea that when the scourges and talos come out that the enemy line will be close enough to fire heatlanes at armor. The other haemy on foot is not only a safe guard in case the other haemy gets into trouble but also that more conservative placement will either be close to other objectives as well as being close enough to the other portal in case the opponent tries to surround one.

The 2 grotesque squads can either start the game on the board or in reserve, they can do anti armor or infantry work. Starting on the board I like to Ether Sail them into the other half of the board – distraction is the idea here even though the Haemy and Wracks can easily withstand a round of shooting on their own. If the grots raider blows they will shrug it off and sit in a 4+ cover crater and fearless but at least they will not have to go far to charge something (that is if flat out them at the enemy or enemy armor).

I also included that mandrakes would really work with this list by either infiltrating them where the Raider Haemy is going to land and join them or by putting them in the portal (with 1 of the grotesque haemys) or you can outflank them.

The extra wrack squad in a raider is put in reserve and is used for either last turn grab or to take an objective. This option always works well for me especially in last turn grab scenarios.

The extra wrack squad on foot can either start on the board or come out of the portal – whatever floats your boat.

Scourges are pronounced to “deepstrike” however they will be primarily using the portal. If you feel like a large 10 squad then go for it.

I did mention bikes but I know it ain’t coven.

Talos can do armor or infantry work

Chronos is farming tokens primarily to the scourges but talos and itself.

I don't think all cabal or wytch armies seem quite dull to play.

all wytrch armie would be awsome, they are just super versatile and good against a lott they should not be good against (terminators and landraiders) but they do not like to get shot at and hordes just lauch at them (I am looking at your ork!)

a 6 haemy list with 2 4 man Grotesque squads in two raiders on the table to start with. If you go first or second it doesn't matter, HIDE THE RAIDERS!!!!! Use LOS blocking terrain to hide the Raiders as much as you can, especially if you go second. On turn 1, one Raider moves 12" forward, as close to the enemy as they can get, and disembarks (into cover except for Haemy with WWP, as you want that Portal on the edge or outside of the cover so you don't have to terrain check when you bring out your reserves.) 2nd Raider Flat out 24" (Enhanced Aethersails are very useful with this Raider, as this can give you a 36" Flat out possibly) then pray it doesnt blow up, but even if it does, your grots and Haemy should survive to turn 2.

Drop that first portal and then let the Haemy and Grots hide in the cover for the rest of that turn. Turn two, you roll your reserves, everything that comes in comes from that first portal, and if you don't have range cause they setup too far back, run your units into the cover close to the portal, and make sure you run in the shooting phase to get as much distance as you can. the other WWP Haemy and his grots disembark after the Raider moves forward another 12", giving you another portal 15" closer to your enemies lines (which should be pretty hard for them to dodge away from.)

Turn 3, anything not already in assault should get there this turn, and anything coming on from reserves now has two portals to choose from, depending on where the target priority and best survival chances are.

Grots on the charge with a Haemy are pretty good anti Tank with S6 from the FC they already have. Anything you have in the back for AT should be concentrating on the bigger tanks while the Grots pop open any Transports needed for the wracks to pull apart the squishy insides.

Any questions?