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Hey folks!

There's a tournament coming up in a month that is a 1k per person team tournament. I had originally rejected the idea of attending because any time you put two generals in charge of the same army, disaster follows.

I've asked someone if they'd be willing to be my adjutant instead of my equal on my team, and was contemplating how scary a daemon + Dark Eldar army might be. My idea is having the Dark Eldar completely focused on anti-tank, and the daemons focused on assault - anti-tank usually being their weakness anyway.

For 1,000 points of Dark Eldar I can get:
Haemonculi with a Shattershard
Two bare-bones warrior units on foot
3 trueborn units of 3 with blasters in venoms with extra splinter cannons
3 triple dark lance ravagers.

I'm envisioning blood crushers piling into whatever I've knocked out of transports, but I don't know how their force organization works so well. Is this a deadly idea? Do you have any suggestions on a good daemon 1k list that would complement my Dark Eldar?

If you wanted cool fluff points run all slaaneshy demons. My adepticon team was gonna do that this year but I don't think we'll get it all painted in time.

That said I think crushers are probably the better choice, slaanesh is by no means bad. But crushers rock hard and take a lot of fire power to destroy which would leave the DE unharrased. I would take 2 four man units and put one in each wave so you know that you will have one to put the pressure on turn 1.

Well you would deal with all the AT so they would not need to do Tzeentch. Also nugrle is bad because you wanne munch him up. I would sugest blood thirsters with herralds on blood krushers (for the bodies) and some slanesh demons (cheap) with lash whip to give the khorn units "fleet".

The dark eldar performs the reserved flank move and the demon deep strike onto that table edge and you start munching up one side of the board, working your way through the oposing side.

Niiai wrote:Well you would deal with all the AT so they would not need to do Tzeentch. Also nugrle is bad because you wanne munch him up. I would sugest blood thirsters with herralds on blood krushers (for the bodies) and some slanesh demons (cheap) with lash whip to give the khorn units "fleet".

The dark eldar performs the reserved flank move and the demon deep strike onto that table edge and you start munching up one side of the board, working your way through the oposing side.

A blood thirster is going to run 275pts after it is suitably upgraded. Plus it's the only monstrous creature in 2k pts. Two vendettas and a melta vet squad will tear it down in a single turn and then the daemon player is out >25% of their army, while 80% of the opponents army now thrashes the DE.

The pavange is also not quite as good as fleet. You have to hit the unit, which means you have to see the unit, you pay for a roughly 200pt frail MC (which if you also take the bloodthirster would be almost half the daemons in two models) that eat's up a heavy the DE are already using (BTW, the DE have 3 heavys? What is the FOC chart for the tournament like?), and even then the pavagne doesn't improve your field position it only hurts theirs. Not a horrible idea in normal games but I tried it in our 1k slaaneshy detachment and it stood out as the worst choice.

For less pts than the thirster and prince you get 8 S5 T5 2W 3+/5++ furious charging, eternal warrior, power weapon wielding crushers. You also have to cause 5 wounds at a time before there is even a chance of losing a crusher. They are slow, but between the deepstrike and the DE speed you should be able to box your opponent in so there isn't a good place for him to go. And if they did nothing but soak up an entire turn of shooting so the DE are free to shoot at full capacity again then it was probably a decent buy.

I would say playtest it and see what you like, but 5th ed rules are hard on MCs and daemon MCs are by no means cheap, and they eat up important FOC slots.

The one thing the all slaanesh daemons has going for it is a lot of the weapons that would be good against DE are also good againt the deamons so you start to run into a saturation point where opponents have to shoot melta guns and demonettes or some similarly ineffiecient shot. And on top of that the sheer number of units that are going to charge and wreck face on turn two is frightening. I liked it at least.

If you're planning on going as solely anti-tank, I would suggest switching the Venoms on the Trueborn units for Raiders.

You might also consider of swapping the Trueborn Blasters for Lances, simply for the utility of dedicating on longer range shooting/domination of the battlefield and keeping out of the way of any possible enemy assault gribblies and leaving the short range stuff to the Daemons, however, the flip side of that of course is a couple less guns. You'd also have to scrounge a few of the points from somewhere, dropping the shattershard and a couple of shields. That one really boils down to your own personal play style preference.


Other than that, I don't think there's anything more in particular you can do AT wise, if that's what you're aiming for.

God yes will this work. If the daemon player can squeeze in some fiends as well, this will be absolutely fantastic. I know it cuts into the bloodcrusher allowance, but some flamers in the second wave would be fantastic against disembarked troops. It'd be really nice to fit Fateweaver in, but I just don't see how at 1k... maybe just multiple tzeentch heralds in chariots.

Also, the dark eldar are spot on. But, being Dash, I'm not surprised...

18 fiends is 540. After that id say the masque since its cheap and you need an HQ. Backed up with nothing but bloodletters for the rest. It should do great.

Random thought - what are the rules governing wargear interaction? A WWP for Daemons would be hilarious (and of course frowned upon).

I agree with Ketara for the most part, switch to Lance Trueborn with Raiders. More shots at tanks. Either Crushers or Fiends will work. With the loss of the splinter cannons you may include more anti-infantry in the Daemon list. Avoid big models as was said above, and fill the table with multiple threats.

Not sure of the combination. Im not saying it cant work, but if you dont have first turn, the armies dont complement each other very well. If you are going 2nd, the DE are deployed with no deamons on the board. Reserve everything....ok....but now the deamons drop with nothing else on the board, and only half of the 1000 points. Again, not saying it cant work, but there are some issues there to consider.

Ferw armies work well with the demaons, and usually they are foot based armies that work well with the deamons IMO. I would personally run bugs with the DE. Curios if they are allowing full force org for the 1000 points, or adepticon style force org.

alast i meant blood letters? I don't play deamons and i never play them, but the troop with power weapon is very good.

Dashofpepper wrote:
For 1,000 points of Dark Eldar I can get:
Haemonculi with a Shattershard
Two bare-bones warrior units on foot
3 trueborn units of 3 with blasters in venoms with extra splinter cannons
3 triple dark lance ravagers.

How about dropping 1 trueborn squad, giving both warrior squads a venom along with a blaster each? If the points work out, you only end up loosing 1 blaster.

I suggest this because, along with anti-tank, I can imagine daemons have an issue with troop mobility.

As for the daemons themselves, Blood letters seem to be the most efficient thing at killing infantry, assuming they are out of a vehicle. Grab a blood-thirster for some MC fun (as the splinter cannons actually fill the role of a breath of chaos herald..)

Edit: OH! Fateweaver - All those SMF cover saves, flickerfield invulnerables; Even a shadowfield Archon. Or better yet, The baron for the benefit of going first.

Does the 1000 point army have to follow all normal rules for army construction. 1HQ + 2Troops. If not load up on Blood Crushers and Seekers with Fatey. If so, 2 units of 5 Plaguebearers can hold any objective for minimal cost.

Yep; each player has to present a FoC.

I almost want to say that orks would be stronger. A kan-wall style list would present a bunch more low AV-spam and have the boys to overwhelm your opponents.

Plaguebearers are pretty good for holding objectives no matter who the Daemons are teamed up with.

If you wanted an assault wave though I'd say that Daemonettes and Skarabrand is a pretty nasty combo. Re-rolls to hit at I6 with all that rending is a pretty brutal thing.

Dracos wrote:I almost want to say that orks would be stronger. A kan-wall style list would present a bunch more low AV-spam and have the boys to overwhelm your opponents.

Probably, but I can't enter my own Orks in with my DE, my wife won't do it, and my Ork buddy (who runs a kan-wall) wouldn't be willing to take a backseat or submissive role on the table - so we'd be bad teammates.

Dashofpepper wrote:...wouldn't be willing to take a backseat or submissive role on the table - so we'd be bad teammates.

I've played in a lot of team tournaments and have even won a few. In no instance has there been a struggle for dominance in any of my teams. Why not just have both members play to their strengths with complimentary army lists? It seems silly to lose a potential teammate because of his refusal to be "submissive."



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dracos wrote:I almost want to say that orks would be stronger. A kan-wall style list would present a bunch more low AV-spam and have the boys to overwhelm your opponents.

Orks paired up with anything that has reliable ranged anti-tank is a really tough nut to crack.

I would suggest something like that (if I would look for a solid army):

*************** 1 HQ ***************
Bigmek, Kustom Force Field
- - - > 85 Punkte

*************** 4 Troop ***************
30 Boyz, Shootaz, 2 x Big shoota, Nob, Power Klaw, Bosspole
- - - > 230 points

26 Boyz, Shootaz, 2 x Big shoota, Nob, Power Klaw, Bosspole
- - - > 230 points

25 Boyz, Shootaz, 2 x Big shoota, Nob, Power Klaw, Bosspole
- - - > 230 points

19 Boyz, Shootaz, 2 x Big shoota, Nob, Power Klaw, Bosspole
- - - > 230 points

*************** 1 Heavy Support ***************

Battlewagon, 2 x big shoota, Deffrolla
- - - > 120 points

1000

but I assume your wife does not like dull armies hm?
But KFF for your vehicles would be neat...

well, concerning Daemons...:

*************** 1 HQ ***************
Herald of Khorne, Moloch, Fury of Khorne, unholy might
- - - > 130 points

Herald of Khorne, Moloch, Fury of Khorne, unholy might
- - - > 130 points

*************** 3 Elite ***************
3 Flamers
- - - > 105 Points

6 Crushers, Fury of Khorne (? I mean that rending guy), Icon, Instrument of Chaos
- - - > 280 Points

3 Flamers
- - - > 105 Points

*************** 3 Standard ***************
6 Plaguebearers
- - - > 90 Points

5 Plaguebearers, Instrument of Chaos
- - - > 80 Points

5 Plaguebearers, Instrument of Chaos
- - - > 80 Points


Gesamtpunkte Chaosdämonen : 1000

is that what you are looking for?

Monster Rain wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:...wouldn't be willing to take a backseat or submissive role on the table - so we'd be bad teammates.

I've played in a lot of team tournaments and have even won a few. In no instance has there been a struggle for dominance in any of my teams. Why not just have both members play to their strengths with complimentary army lists? It seems silly to lose a potential teammate because of his refusal to be "submissive."



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dracos wrote:I almost want to say that orks would be stronger. A kan-wall style list would present a bunch more low AV-spam and have the boys to overwhelm your opponents.

Orks paired up with anything that has reliable ranged anti-tank is a really tough nut to crack.

See it from my viewpoint. I'm extremely competitive. I view myself as an *extremely* good player. If I have a partner, I want my teammates to be as good as I am, or better. Put Hulksmash on my team, we'll do what we do, agree on pretty much everything, and feel sorry for our opponents. Doesn't matter what I bring, he's better than me. *I* want to be the weakest link and coast along on other peoples' talent! =D Short of being teamed up with someone better than me though on the tabletop; teammates for wargaming is a failed enterprise from the get-go.

As a military guy speaking now....you don't have two company commanders. Or two platoon leaders. You NEVER have joint command. Even at the interservice level, there's a theater commander. I'm trying to imagine being a platoon leader in the army and having a co-platoon leader. There's a reason that the military ranking system is dictatorial - democracies aren't effective. I will lead, or I will follow, but I won't cast a vote on a course of action.

Back on topic now. Daemons mixing it up with Dark Eldar.

As a "military guy" myself I think your difficulty is in trying to apply their command structure to a 40k team tournament.

But yeah, the topic. Off you go.

Monster Rain wrote:As a "military guy" myself I think your difficulty is in trying to apply their command structure to a 40k team tournament.

But yeah, the topic. Off you go.

I'm definitely drunk off my rocker right now. What?

So Zach agreed to be your submissive? tsk, tsk

Toxxic wrote:So Zach agreed to be your submissive? tsk, tsk

NO, he hasn't responded yet.

Assuming the missions would be structured like those of the AdeptiCon team tournament, you may run into situations where your opponents address one force at a time.
Examples, in years past the mission would be written that one teammate counts for kill point, one team HQ must end the other’s deployment zone or, the dreaded; both teams must have a scoring unit in a area to claim table corners/ objectives.
Your tournament record speaks for itself, but I don’t know how much team games you have under your belt. Glass Hammer + sledge hammers make a mess of your opponents, but in particular the glass hammer, may be your team’s undoing when it comes to a focused approach from your opponents.

Dash, grab a unit of Flamers of Tzeentch, but have them run in a 3-man squad. Maybe even two in case of deep strike mishaps. Fiends and Daemon Princes of Slaanesh are awesome because they can both use hit and run. The daemon prince can also get assault and defense grenades. For troops, if you aren't worried about claiming objectives with the daemons take bloodletters (if you want killy troops) or take nurglings and stick them in cover for a 2+ save if they go to ground because 2 troops will only take up 78 points-gives you more points for your heavy hitters. My recommendation would be:
Bloodthirster
-might, blessing of blood god
Fiends x6
-might
Flamers x3
Flamers x3

Nurglings x3
Nurglings x3

This is just over 750 points. Add in a Slaanesh prince and maybe a unit of seekers since they have 5 attacks on the charge at 17pts a model. Hope something like this helps

I think if you are looking to use the Deamons as assault, then you want Bloodlcrushers for sure-but I think going all Khorne is just looking for trouble. As DE are a fast, mobile force, slower units seem antisynergistic. I looked at a base of Fateweaver with 2 units of 4 Diversified 'crushers, but that's over 700 points!! I like this..Skullcrusher!!!

Skulltaker+Jugg-175
Herald of Khorne+Fury of Khorne, Iron Hide, Unholy Might-145

4 Bloodcrusher+ Fury of Khorne,Icon,Instrument-200
4 Bloodcrusher+ Fury of Khorne,Icon,Instrument-200

10 Deamonettes + Trasfixing Gaze=145
10 Deamonettes + Trasfixing Gaze=145

5 Seekers of Slaanesh +Tranfixing Gaze=95 OR 3 Fiends of Slaanesh + Unholy Might=100

Sure, we can play around with gifts to squeeze out more points, but I like the combination of speed with raw power

DISCLAIMER: I might have made a mistake somewhere, so apologies, but I hope you get the idea

Dashofpepper wrote:
See it from my viewpoint. I'm extremely competitive. I view myself as an *extremely* good player. If I have a partner, I want my teammates to be as good as I am, or better. Put Hulksmash on my team, we'll do what we do, agree on pretty much everything, and feel sorry for our opponents. Doesn't matter what I bring, he's better than me. *I* want to be the weakest link and coast along on other peoples' talent! =D Short of being teamed up with someone better than me though on the tabletop; teammates for wargaming is a failed enterprise from the get-go.

Thanks Dash, as your Ork friend that runs a Kan Wall, it's good to know I suck! =p

Heffling wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:
See it from my viewpoint. I'm extremely competitive. I view myself as an *extremely* good player. If I have a partner, I want my teammates to be as good as I am, or better. Put Hulksmash on my team, we'll do what we do, agree on pretty much everything, and feel sorry for our opponents. Doesn't matter what I bring, he's better than me. *I* want to be the weakest link and coast along on other peoples' talent! =D Short of being teamed up with someone better than me though on the tabletop; teammates for wargaming is a failed enterprise from the get-go.

Thanks Dash, as your Ork friend that runs a Kan Wall, it's good to know I suck! =p

Heff, already asked you to be my adjutant and you said no, but you'd be my teammate. =p

Like I said, you can't have two chiefs and no indians!

If you are looking for pure assault daemons at 1k to support DE, what about this?

Herald of Khorne on Chariot, Unholy might
Herald of Khorne on Chariot, Unholy might
Herald of Khorne on Chariot, Unholy might


6 fiends
6 fiends
6 fiends

5 bloodletters
5 bloodletters

Thats 1k. Far from balanced, but it might be something worth trying out.

So I attended the tournament!

My daemon friend never responded to my on Dakka, so I went with an Ork buddy instead.

Baron + 2 wych squads on foot + 3x3 Blaster Trueborn in Venoms+3x Ravagers....
Big Mek with KFF + 2x10 gretchin, 15/5/5 Lootas, and 3x3 Killa-kans with rokkits....

We rocked the house. =D

We played against DE/Sisters of Battle....then against DE/Blood Angels....then against Spacewolves/Blood Angels (Team Twilight).

The worst game was the last, with us not going first, the Long fangs ripped my apart, my return alpha-strike not doing much (when a ravager shooting at a furioso rear armour + 6 blaster trueborn can't do more than 2 glances (shaken/stunned) on a dreadnought, you have issues). Nonetheless we prevailed 11 KP to 7 (tabling our opponents on the bottom of turn 6 by finishing off two rhinos, a troop and an HQ - longfangs were a priority early).

Highlights of the day: We tabled all three opponents, scoring 6,000/6,000 victory points! My friend also broke his 40k cherry - our second game was his first flawless victory ever (we scored 2,000 VP and gave up 0). And its his first tournament win! =D


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I attended the tournament!

My daemon friend never responded to my on Dakka, so I went with an Ork buddy instead.

Baron + 2 wych squads on foot + 3x3 Blaster Trueborn in Venoms+3x Ravagers....
Big Mek with KFF + 2x10 gretchin, 15/5/5 Lootas, and 3x3 Killa-kans with rokkits....

We rocked the house. =D

We played against DE/Sisters of Battle....then against DE/Blood Angels....then against Spacewolves/Blood Angels (Team Twilight).

The worst game was the last, with us not going first, the Long fangs ripped my apart, my return alpha-strike not doing much (when a ravager shooting at a furioso rear armour + 6 blaster trueborn can't do more than 2 glances (shaken/stunned) on a dreadnought, you have issues). Nonetheless we prevailed 11 KP to 7 (tabling our opponents on the bottom of turn 6 by finishing off two rhinos, a troop and an HQ - longfangs were a priority early).

Highlights of the day: We tabled all three opponents, scoring 6,000/6,000 victory points! My friend also broke his 40k cherry - our second game was his first flawless victory ever (we scored 2,000 VP and gave up 0). And its his first tournament win! =D