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I think its a rather good tactical discussion. Do you use the SC in your dex? I play Orks, and I have only used Ghaz twice. Yes I know he is a brute and krumps things with ease, but I dont much care for using him. I like the thought of winning, or putting up a hell of a fight, with just the regular Warboss/BigMek. Waht about you DAKKA? Are you the same way? Or do you just rely heavily on special characters and such?

I can always think of better things to buy for my HQ than special character's. Unless the SC is 150points or below, ill never use him/her. Now, if its an upgrade like Snikrot or Tellion, then I wold probably use them.

short answer? Sometimes.

Marbo often graces my IG list as comic enlightenment, and a demo charge The changling is also often seed spread amongst my horrors. Other than that its only if Im doing a scenario or a very fluffy army.

Dude a lot of characters are good why telion and snikrot they suck but kharn is a beast sois logan grimnar kayvan shrike

For my orks, not so much. I like my 2 Big Mek list and my dual-warboss greentide too much

For my Necrons, I have a soft spot for the C'tan and will field one as often as not, though they are a huge (and these days a bit overpriced) point sink. It's worth it for the look on someone's face when you tell them that their super dooper character/unit literally can't hurt him at S 4. I always have to pull the table up at the back of the book to show them

I disaprove of special characters. I feel it's just GW doing what Wizards of the Coast do with M:tG and rare cards.

'If you pay more money, you will have a more powerful force'

I dont like it and I never include special characters. I just name my own (It's not Space Marine Captain, its Captain Bael of the 5th Battle Company, Blood Angels Chapter, circa ~750.M41) and give them a little bit of Mary-sue fluff (Captain Bael once brought a rebel planet back to the Imperial fold all by himself, with only his Lightning Claws and 3 vortex grenades to hand)

There, my own 'special' character with none of the game bending rules that I frown at!

There used to be a stigma against using special characters, but that seems to have lifted. You pretty much always see Vulkan in SM lists these days. Some codexs have really good regular hqs like the csm codex where people are either fielding princes or sorcerers so it's rare that you see any csm special characters. I almost never see BAs without either the sanguinor or mephiston and just about every eldar list has eldrad these days.

People use special characters all the time and 40k characters are fairly balanced compared to the fantasty ones. The only warning I would give is try not to rely on them because then you may want to change your list and without the character you might have to learn to play the army all over again.

People who take some moral high horse over scs are hilarious ....

Its like hipsters really.

"Special chars? Oh ... I use regular chars ... You probably havent heard of them."

If someone tells me I can't use SCs I more or less tell them to feth off, as the Emperor's Champion is mandatory, and the Black Templars SCs aren't even as dangerous as the "generic" Marshal unless you build your list to support them, which means you'll miss out in other areas.

Depends on the army:

Nids - Rarely. I might bring the Swarmlord in a high point footslogging list, but I usually run jump infantry lists. The only characters that really synergize with them is PoM (who hurts you rather than helps in 1/3 of the games), DoM in a pod (who I just can't spend the spare elite slots on), and Deathleaper (see Dom).

Necrons - Sometimes. I've found myself using the Deciever more than I used to , but only in high point value games. The Nightbringer pretty much never sees the outside of the case.

IG - Rarely. Al'Rahem is someone I'll use occasionally. Most of the time, I do without though.

Blood Angels - Rarely. I might run Dante in a DoA list, but I'm not really a fan of the rest of the SCs. I'd rather just slap a libby or two in there.

Tau - Very Rarely. Once in a great while I'll play a Farsight bomb list for kicks, but other than that they are pretty unappealing.


EDIT: On the whole SC vs none issue. I too feel that the stigma against SCs is simply a hold over from earlier editions. I feel like the SCs these days add a lot more to the game than they used to, and I enjoy playing against them (even the particularly strong ones). I don't use a lot of them simply because in the armies I play currently, I don't think that they really are the most point efficient options, but can add a lot of fun if I want to run an off the wall list.

Honestly, SC are just the same as any other HQ choice. I do not think that you should be making a distiction between them anymore.

It USED to be that there were restrictions on Special Characters, (asking opponent permission, force of a given size, I am not sure it was before my time.) In those days the special characters were generally better than a Normal HQ choice.

Most of the special characters are balanced, but there are a few who stand out as being very good. It is the same with "normal" HQ units, some of them are really good and others are not.

EXAMPLE:

Codex: SPACE MARINES

Character #1: VARRO TIGURIUS
This guy has some great abilities; 3 powers a turn, Re-roll all reserves, Knows all the spells. BUT he comes with a VERY hefty price tag, and does not have an option for TDA+SS. It is far cheaper to take a "regular" librarian with TDA+SS and take whatever powers you like. Personally, I have not seen him on the table or in any battle report. I do not think that most people would call this character overpowered. IN FACT, on one of the previous threads about "What is Overpowered", regular SM librarians W/ Null Zone were mentioned a lot, but never Tigurius.

Character #2: VULKAN HE'STAN
First off, he is one of the less expensive special characters, costing below 200 pts. His statline is the same as a Captain, but he has some great equipment. 3++ save, Heavy Flamer, MC Relic Blade w/ Digital Weapons. Then there is his chapter tactics; It makes a lot of units that were good to begin with even better. After this book came out, he was seen on a lot of tables, and was considered to be a bit unfair because of how much he does for his points.



I am sure that things work about the same in any other book. The choice to include a special character is the same as choosing any other unit. Special Characters are not overpowered in general, there is no reason to ban them any more than you should ban Terminators, (the assault and the shooty ones.)

The only reason to ban them from a game would be for "non-gameplay" reasons. You like the idea of having your own character, you are playing a campaign/scenario where the character would not be, the character model/color scheme is unappealing, ect.

I suppose I hate the attitude of "Oh, If your playing blah-blah, you have to have xxx-Special Character or you'll just lose."

Along with 'I use net-list blah blah blah with SC blah-blah and I never lose because he pwns everything.'

I want to punch those people so badly my knuckles bleed!

Hi

Depends on the army and what I feel like. With my chaos marines I frequently use kharn, whereas I have never used, and have no plans to use them, in space marines or imperial guard. I do rather like rather playing against them though, something to do with smiting a legendary figure with my regular army, and I intend to keep track of the in game achievements of my forge world nurgle sorcerer and turning him into a serious figure.

Bye
Waaagh!

PrometheusZero wrote:I disaprove of special characters. I feel it's just GW doing what Wizards of the Coast do with M:tG and rare cards.

'If you pay more money, you will have a more powerful force'

?

The opposite is true. When you have more expensive models, you don't need to buy as many models.

PrometheusZero wrote:Along with 'I use net-list blah blah blah with SC blah-blah and I never lose because he pwns everything.'

The best thing is, most special characters drag down the lists they're in. I'd rather more people brought more of them against me (especially with that wretched attitude that they're awesome and invincible) just because it would make it all the more likely that I table their precious forces with just troops choices

bagtagger wrote:There used to be a stigma against using special characters, but that seems to have lifted.

Right. That's actually on purpose, on GW's part.

Back in 4th ed (and probably earlier), when you played with a special character, you played with THE special character. THE Eldrad was at EVERY battle EVERYWHERE. The 5th ed rulebook, however, makes an explicit point of saying that across the universe there are heroes who rise up. You can include one in your army if you want, and use one of these heroic rules sets. You can even play with THE guy if you want, but you can just use the rules and make up your own character as well.

As for the OP, I don't use special characters unless there's something specific they add to the army. Most of them are just junk, and those whose sole purpose is to turn an HQ slot into an elite slot are doubly so. The ones that are actually worth taking are the ones that let you do strange things to your army. Belial or Grimnar allowing you to take terminators as troops choices, for example, or al'rahem allowing you to outflank with half your army.

I feel that everyone is free to use special characters, but I normally do not. I find that most often I'd rather spend the points elsewhere, but have no particular hatred for them. I'm often confused by another person who hates SCs.

Ugh. I'm so sick of the SC hate that still lingers. Most top tier tourny players think SCs are overcosted, and would rather be taking a cheap but effective HQ (Null zone libby, Shield/rage Libby, 4x Melta/plas CCS, Rune Priest, TWC Wolf Lord, Autarchs, Big Mek with KFF, Warboss on Bike, Bike Captain ect).

Lots of players NEED special characters to unlock their army (Deathwing ect). In the C:SM book, they give you an opportunity to represent a bunch of different chapters (Lysander, Vulkan, Pedro, Khan ect) They add flavor and vartiation to armies.

I'm just so sick of the SC hate though. There is a major tournament in my city that is using comp scoring that penalises for SC use. I wish people would get their heads out of their a55 and recognise the current meta.

I use two. Then again I play Death Raven (Doublewing) nowadays so I don't really have an option in that.

Some armies unfortunately NEED Special Characters to work. Penalizing people for taking them earns you a seat on the short-bus. How are people supposed to run Deathwing w/o Belial, Salamanders w/o Vulkan, White Scars w/o Khan, competitive Daemons w/o Fateweaver, etc.

There is however a great polarization in the use of specific SCs. Hardly anyone runs Tigurius because he blows, yet you have Vulkan in nearly every Salamander build out there.

Put another way, not every army is equally handicapped by artificially restricting special characters. IG? Oh no, I guess I'll just have to spend more points on Mech Vets, Vendettas, Hydras, and artillery.

Playing a SC is problematic in that they often provide a benifit that so out weighs the other options available or they provide a bonus you want to exploit.

First: Eldrad, Marneus

Second: Vulkan, Pedro

I grit my teeth with dislike for the mechanic that GW has used to bring about this flexibility ( Special Characters unlocking abilities) but it is hard to find fault with anyone who - rather that going on the SW bandwagon - decides to build a Vukan or Pedro list.

The secret is the cost of the SC - you have to ask yourself if it is really a benefit to spend the extra @ 100 pts for the special instead of a generic of the same type.

DAaddict wrote:Playing a SC is problematic in that they often provide a benifit that so out weighs the other options available or they provide a bonus you want to exploit.

First: Eldrad, Marneus

Second: Vulkan, Pedro

I grit my teeth with dislike for the mechanic that GW has used to bring about this flexibility ( Special Characters unlocking abilities) but it is hard to find fault with anyone who - rather that going on the SW bandwagon - decides to build a Vukan or Pedro list.

The secret is the cost of the SC - you have to ask yourself if it is really a benefit to spend the extra @ 100 pts for the special instead of a generic of the same type.

Sometimes the wargear options alone make up points' cost difference.

Vulkan vs. a Marine Captain:

Vulkan: 190

Standard Captain: For equivalent wargear (digi weapons, relic blade, stormshield, artificer armor, and a heavy flamer he doesn't have access to), you're paying 180 points and the Relic Blade isn't Master Crafted.

I'm pretty sure Eldrad is the same thing.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

DAaddict wrote:Playing a SC is problematic in that they often provide a benifit that so out weighs the other options available or they provide a bonus you want to exploit.

First: Eldrad, Marneus

Second: Vulkan, Pedro

I grit my teeth with dislike for the mechanic that GW has used to bring about this flexibility ( Special Characters unlocking abilities) but it is hard to find fault with anyone who - rather that going on the SW bandwagon - decides to build a Vukan or Pedro list.

The secret is the cost of the SC - you have to ask yourself if it is really a benefit to spend the extra @ 100 pts for the special instead of a generic of the same type.

Sometimes the wargear options alone make up points' cost difference.

Vulkan vs. a Marine Captain:

Vulkan: 190

Standard Captain: For equivalent wargear (digi weapons, relic blade, stormshield, artificer armor, and a heavy flamer he doesn't have access to), you're paying 180 points and the Relic Blade isn't Master Crafted.

Well, first off, Chapter tactics are a trade, not an upgrade, so they don't really represent a points + boost in the SC itself.

Vulkan is just a glorified captain on foot. The captain itself can take most of the gear and would cost less that vulkan. Both have the problems of being captains, and suffering from instant death problems and underwhelming stat lines.

PrometheusZero wrote:I disaprove of special characters. I feel it's just GW doing what Wizards of the Coast do with M:tG and rare cards.

'If you pay more money, you will have a more powerful force'

I dont like it and I never include special characters. I just name my own (It's not Space Marine Captain, its Captain Bael of the 5th Battle Company, Blood Angels Chapter, circa ~750.M41) and give them a little bit of Mary-sue fluff (Captain Bael once brought a rebel planet back to the Imperial fold all by himself, with only his Lightning Claws and 3 vortex grenades to hand)

There, my own 'special' character with none of the game bending rules that I frown at!

Huh, what? Is there anything stopping you from renaming your special characters? Or do you need to buy THAT specific model to gain access to a special character? Of course not. No one is forcing you to buy the metal models.

My counts-as Vulkan is made up of SW legs, BT bitz from the BT upgrade sprue. And his name is Richard Lionheart.

Also, isn't buying a metal non-SC HQ just the same with the mantra 'If you pay more money, you will have a more powerful force' you mentioned?

A SC is just a forced exploit.

Vulkan = Spam the TH termies, flamers and meltas.
Pedro = Play 3 sternguard or be called a fool.
Belial = Can anyone say 30 termies of fun.

That is all it is and sorry depending on style chapter tactics is a major upgrade - fleeting termies instead of runaway automatically if I have to take a morale test- please that is an upgrade if I build my list to exploit it.

scubasteve04 wrote:Vulkan is just a glorified captain on foot. The captain itself can take most of the gear and would cost less that vulkan. Both have the problems of being captains, and suffering from instant death problems and underwhelming stat lines.

Except that no one buys Vulkan because of his statline. They buy him because, of, you know, Twin-Linking your melta and flamer weapons.

Anyway, as IG, I use Marbo every now and then.

I only run an SC in a theme list, otherwise I don't bother since I just feel wierd having a person that doesn't look like they fit. However, I don't have any problems with people running soandsomagicpants just because they think he is shiney.

DAaddict wrote:A SC is just a forced exploit.

Vulkan = Spam the TH termies, flamers and meltas.
Pedro = Play 3 sternguard or be called a fool.
Belial = Can anyone say 30 termies of fun.

That is all it is and sorry depending on style chapter tactics is a major upgrade - fleeting termies instead of runaway automatically if I have to take a morale test- please that is an upgrade if I build my list to exploit it.

Can you please explain how is it forced?

As a player, are you forced to play Vulkan? Or even if you're taking Vulkan, are you forced to spam Melta, TH and flamers? Or are you forced to max your sterns if you have Pedro?

A lot of SCs don't even "dictate" what the rest of your army should look like.

SCs are in the end, tools that you want or want not to use. If you don't like using them, then coolbeans. But there's no reason to get uppity and mad just because someone doesn't like the same stuff as you.

I disagree with this concept, as a BA player I usually run a libby and that's about it, in 2000-2500 points I might run Dante or a Dante/Sanguinor team, but that's 1/5th of my entire list right there, that's a huge point sink for them that could be better spent, in most cases the generic is better then the named, see also Swarmlord vs hive tyrant, CCS vs Yarick and others of that type. There is one army I feel needs SCs, and it's not to be good, it's to do what the Codex is designed to do, C:SM are designed to be flexible, it's the thing they do that makes them unique against the other codexes, their heroes really allow this.

So usually it's either not as strong, when it is, it's space marines and less for power more for versatility.

The exception to this rule is Ghazkul, worth every single point for his army wide 6 on waaagh and his 2+ invuln during that time.

I see this thread and it is obvious that there are two major extremes in the likes/hates SC crowds and many people inbetween.
I myself have never used and never will use any of the "special" characters GW are trying to force down my throat, and the fact they made army unlocking characers is just another example of that. It is especially insulting when you look at the fact some armies get ways to modify their lists with regular characters.
Either way my deep rooted hatred towards SC's have never stoped me from playing against them and taking great pleasure (and usually acting a lot jerkier actually) when i kill them.

In the grim future of GWs 40k, the same dudes fight in all the battles

Vulkan is just a glorified captain on foot. The captain itself can take most of the gear and would cost less that vulkan. Both have the problems of being captains, and suffering from instant death problems and underwhelming stat lines.

10 points difference, which is a hell of a deal for army-wide bonuses. Then again lets look at Belial, a grand 130 points to make terminators troops. Heck, he's only 15 more points than a generic captain after you give him a power sword.

Sammy on the other hand... not so much.

PrometheusZero wrote:I disaprove of special characters. I feel it's just GW doing what Wizards of the Coast do with M:tG and rare cards.

'If you pay more money, you will have a more powerful force'

I dont like it and I never include special characters. I just name my own (It's not Space Marine Captain, its Captain Bael of the 5th Battle Company, Blood Angels Chapter, circa ~750.M41) and give them a little bit of Mary-sue fluff (Captain Bael once brought a rebel planet back to the Imperial fold all by himself, with only his Lightning Claws and 3 vortex grenades to hand)

There, my own 'special' character with none of the game bending rules that I frown at!

I think that is not true if you have gioant armies you need heroes and they usually cost less 4 priests vs grimnar