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Does it seem prudent to bring six or even nine mega nobs diversified (as far as possible) in a battle wagon accompanied by the mad Dok? I'm thinking seriously about doing such for 'Ardboys this year. My worry is that it gives an obvious target to the opponent where I'm endeavoring to make chooses difficult.

Please let me know what you think versus three mega nobs, six, nine, or even zero with the mad Dok.

Big slow unit in a big slow (by ork terms) vehicle. It'll make a bloody paste of whatever it runs into but if it's out of combat, they'll be in serious trouble.

What advantage would this unit have versus, say, Nob Bikers? Not advocating one over the other, but in general nob bikers are the benchmark for ork "rock" units as a blend of speed, shooting, assault, and staying power. What would this unit do over those, given that they are both extremely expensive units that instantly become the high priority target for your opponent?

Also, it helps to know what else is in your army to know if you're giving other targets, other than this 600+ pt chunk.

Well there are 3 main problems I can think of:

1. Its an expensive unit so it will most likely get a lot of focused-fire (for 8 MANz it should be around 650 points incl. the wagon and Mad Doc). So its reasonably likely that you'll get shot out the transport before you can get to the other side of the board. When you're out then you suffer from the rage rule...a slow unit with rage is bad times as your opponent can often lure you away from the battle with a faster unit.

2. A savvy opponent will bring all his str 8 AP2 to bear against your 2+ and FNP unit, so against opponents that spam melta or dark lances (for example) you'll often be relying on just your 5+ inv to save you from instant death, which is a bit of a bugger with 40pts+ models.

3. You would need a Warboss to make them troops. So you can either have KFF or get a Warboss so your MANz can score, but you can't do both if you also want to take the Mad Doc.

I do love MANz as well (hence the forum handle) but I don't think they work so well as a big unit (especailly at something as cut-throat as 'Ard Boyz). I think that a unit of 3-5 with Ghazghkull in a BWagon is one of the best set ups, cos then you get good leadership on the squad, your MANz can score and they benefit from the guaranteed 6" waaagh, very handy for SnP units!

...plus Ghazzie is a TRIPLE badass!

I love my MANZ - but they do get their butts kicked by power weapons, and so FNP would not save them.

Better idea might be to take Mad Dok -but give him some Ard Boys - and get the MANZ Cybork bodies. That could be cool. Anyone ever done that?

Biggest MANZ unit I have run is 5 with a Warboss.

WarlordGoreFist wrote:

I concur.

Mad Dok + MaNz?

I think someone is going to be crafty and outflank behind you, forcing the MaNz wagon to chase after it, and lead them merrily around the board (with or without wagon) until they've dealt with everything else.

Dashofpepper wrote:Mad Dok + MaNz?

I think someone is going to be crafty and outflank behind you, forcing the MaNz wagon to chase after it, and lead them merrily around the board (with or without wagon) until they've dealt with everything else.

Ah yeah, thats a good point actually Dash, although I shouldn't be surprised given your orky status! Mad Doc's 'One scalpel short of a med-pack' rule is actually even nastier to you than rage because Mad Doc MUST move towards the closest unit and attempt to assualt it if possible, EVEN if he is in a transport (the rage rule specifically excludes transports but Mad Doc's rule doesn't, GW has also FAQed it this way).

I suspect most people wrongly play Mad Doc's rule as Rage, but they are different rules. If I were fielding the Doc in a friendly game I'd ask my opponent if I could play it as rage just so I don't get quite so screwed over, but that ain't gonna happen at 'Ard Boyz!

I was thinking of running the Mad Dok with Snikrot and his boyz. I run 6 MANz in a wagon now and then can still get the 5++.

MANz are under appreciated and they wreck shop as long as you ask your opponent these 8 words, "Does this unit have weapons that ignore armor?".

With Grotznik in the army (not necessarily with the unit), giving them 5++ increases their mileage. But I've seen Grotsnik work better with Ard Boyz, then with MANz.

mrfantastical wrote:MANz are under appreciated and they wreck shop as long as you ask your opponent these 8 words, "Does this unit have weapons that ignore armor?".

With Grotznik in the army (not necessarily with the unit), giving them 5++ increases their mileage. But I've seen Grotsnik work better with Ard Boyz, then with MANz.

Couple of notes to address your assertion that MANz are underappreciated.

I agree that MANz are not often used, even more rarely in competitive settings, and it boils down to two things. First, nobs are better. Second, out of every niche that needs to be filled, they fill none of them - everything is either more suited to the task, or can do so equally well for less points.

Focusing on the phrase, "Does this unit have power weapons?" MANz are ideally suited to fights with non-power weapon toting units.

-Basic Space Marines: These typically come in units of 5 or units of 10. Units of 5 are generally razorback requirements, may or may not have a power weapon or power first, but are generally toting a special weapon. Units of 10, you can bet that they have a powerfist. Honestly though, 10 space marines together in the same unit isn't a sight you see very often.

-Tau everything: MANz work great against these!

Everything else: MANz aren't a good fit.

Aside from foot-slogging mobs of space marines against which a unit of meganobz can trundle up to in a battlewagon, jump out and assault, regular nobs can just do a better job. It basically comes down to this:

Either it doesn't want to be in close combat and doesn't require MANz to deal with (Long Fangs, devastators, small units of objective holders), in which case a trukk full of boyz that has a nob with a powerfist in it would do you just as much good for a fraction of the points...........................or its a dedicated close combat unit with some power weapons in it that will wreck your face, in which case the 5++ on regular nobs, or the sheer volume of attacks from regular boyz are the best fit for the job (or a mob of burnas on the assault with power weapons).

While you could include Mad Dok Grotsnik in an army so that you can pay more points to give the MANz 5++ invulnerable saves....in most attempts at competitive Ork armies, the inclusion of Mad Dok is a weakness in itself. If you're playing a foot-slogging army, MANz are a bad choice automatically. If you're playing a mechanized army, you need a Big Mek with a KFF. And if you take Mad Dok, you're not taking a warboss and making those MANz troops, which significantly decreases their value.

Not to mention the single biggest advantage that Nobs have over Meganobs. You mix it up with 10 genestealers (or take your pick). They can rend. They cause 9 armour saves and 3 rending attacks. Statistically, you've lost two meganobs, and two less powerklaws are attacking back. Statistically, the Nobs will take 4 wounds....and not lose a single model. Meganobs can't preserve combat effectiveness through wound allocation.

Taking huge crumpy orks along for the ride is fun. If you're building a list that you want to take to and win tournaments with, they don't belong. That's my two cents.

Beyond that, I'm not going to try convincing anyone to not take MANz, just like I've given up the warbiker argument. Every bad list that gets fielded and ripped apart is another person nudging into the "Orks aren't that good" camp, which is a perception I like. My orks are pink. With glitter for flock. And polka dots on their vehicles. I hope that it adds to the lack of seriousness with which people take Orks. It makes crushing their army out of existence even sweeter.

MANz are unappreciated. I enjoy taking them, they add a nice bit of pizazz to an army build. So if your going for fun, go ahead and take them. I normally will run 4 if I take them. Problem is, when Im playing players that know what the hell they are doing, and I know Ive gotta bring at least my B game, I certainly look past their entry in the codex.

I also laugh at people that think Orks are just bottom tier and cant win an argument let alone a battle. When played right, Orks can pack one hell of a punch, and will take people by surprise.

Dash as always you are "Da Boss" when it comes to all things Orky.

And I agree that Nobz or Boyz can do most of what MANz can do better but the difference is the price you have to pay for it. I've been playing a BW Rush list mixed with Boyz, Burnas, & MANz. MANz are awesome as long as you go after squishy (non-power weapon) or crunchy (vehicles) targets.

For 255 points 3 MANz with wound shennigans and a Battlewagon are a good unit to go after the enemies that don't want anyone to get near them, and still not waste a Heavy slot for a Battlewagon.

But if I'm not running BW's, Nobz or Boyz are just better. I just wish there were better ways to bring out grotsnik so that MANz can get 5++ easier.

mrfantastical is pretty spot on

Grotsnik is a bit of a fail HQ because after you include the Mek there is only one HQ slot left which you are generaly better of with Ghaz or a warboss to make nobz scoring.

MANZ can be used in small numbers as they are the cheapest PK in the codex and come with a 2+ on top of that. They can be used as a MANZ missile (3 with different wargear in a trukk) or as a way to include a 4th BW when you dont have enough points for a Nob squad.

Apart from those they dont have other uses because of their lack of an invunerable save and pitiful leadership.

mrfantastical wrote:But if I'm not running BW's, Nobz or Boyz are just better. I just wish there were better ways to bring out grotsnik so that MANz can get 5++ easier.

But even if I'm running battlewagons, I prefer Nobz or boyz. ><

Dashofpepper wrote:

mrfantastical wrote:MANz are under appreciated and they wreck shop as long as you ask your opponent these 8 words, "Does this unit have weapons that ignore armor?".

With Grotznik in the army (not necessarily with the unit), giving them 5++ increases their mileage. But I've seen Grotsnik work better with Ard Boyz, then with MANz.

Couple of notes to address your assertion that MANz are underappreciated.

I agree that MANz are not often used, even more rarely in competitive settings, and it boils down to two things. First, nobs are better. Second, out of every niche that needs to be filled, they fill none of them - everything is either more suited to the task, or can do so equally well for less points.

Focusing on the phrase, "Does this unit have power weapons?" MANz are ideally suited to fights with non-power weapon toting units.

-Basic Space Marines: These typically come in units of 5 or units of 10. Units of 5 are generally razorback requirements, may or may not have a power weapon or power first, but are generally toting a special weapon. Units of 10, you can bet that they have a powerfist. Honestly though, 10 space marines together in the same unit isn't a sight you see very often.

-Tau everything: MANz work great against these!

Everything else: MANz aren't a good fit.

Aside from foot-slogging mobs of space marines against which a unit of meganobz can trundle up to in a battlewagon, jump out and assault, regular nobs can just do a better job. It basically comes down to this:

Either it doesn't want to be in close combat and doesn't require MANz to deal with (Long Fangs, devastators, small units of objective holders), in which case a trukk full of boyz that has a nob with a powerfist in it would do you just as much good for a fraction of the points...........................or its a dedicated close combat unit with some power weapons in it that will wreck your face, in which case the 5++ on regular nobs, or the sheer volume of attacks from regular boyz are the best fit for the job (or a mob of burnas on the assault with power weapons).

While you could include Mad Dok Grotsnik in an army so that you can pay more points to give the MANz 5++ invulnerable saves....in most attempts at competitive Ork armies, the inclusion of Mad Dok is a weakness in itself. If you're playing a foot-slogging army, MANz are a bad choice automatically. If you're playing a mechanized army, you need a Big Mek with a KFF. And if you take Mad Dok, you're not taking a warboss and making those MANz troops, which significantly decreases their value.

Not to mention the single biggest advantage that Nobs have over Meganobs. You mix it up with 10 genestealers (or take your pick). They can rend. They cause 9 armour saves and 3 rending attacks. Statistically, you've lost two meganobs, and two less powerklaws are attacking back. Statistically, the Nobs will take 4 wounds....and not lose a single model. Meganobs can't preserve combat effectiveness through wound allocation.

Taking huge crumpy orks along for the ride is fun. If you're building a list that you want to take to and win tournaments with, they don't belong. That's my two cents.

Beyond that, I'm not going to try convincing anyone to not take MANz, just like I've given up the warbiker argument. Every bad list that gets fielded and ripped apart is another person nudging into the "Orks aren't that good" camp, which is a perception I like. My orks are pink. With glitter for flock. And polka dots on their vehicles. I hope that it adds to the lack of seriousness with which people take Orks. It makes crushing their army out of existence even sweeter.

While i wont disagree that MANz are limited in use, I do disagree with some things said about the enemies weapons.

First off, many players don't use PF sarges, they are too many points for a lousy 2 attack model. For vanilla marines that is 51 points (including the mandatory sarge tax). It ends up killing 1 model when assaulted. The regular marines have virtually no chance of killing off a full MANz (like 37% chance to do a wound) 12 meganob attacks = 5 dead marines on average, with just 2 wounds (due to ID) in return. 130pt (diversified, yes you CAN diversify small squads...), 165 with transport squad vs 195 (fist included)...

Orks really shouldn't be assaulting 10 strong stealer units, they can and should use kombi scorchas that can make them into a non threat. 10 stealers are scary, 3-4... not so much.

Not many units in the game have more than 1-2 PW in a squad. PW are weak in low numbers (like 1 wound or less per PW weak), and both types of nobs can shrug it off (assuming diversified for either). The units that DO have all PW (like banshees and incubi) you don't want ANY ork unit in CC with other than dreads or kanz. That goes double for TH/SS or even regular termies (a 5++ is nice on the nobs, but as I've found, not all that great when each fail costs 50+ points).

Now while I agree regular nobs are usually stronger, they cost 3-5 times as much for the typical squad compared to the typical MANz squad. Different roles, one is death star, the other is powerful suicide unit.

Compare the cost of 10 boyz in bare bones truck, including PK nob, vs 3 diverse Manz in same trukk. 135 vs 165. Both are suicide units, but which one is more likely to kill what it touches? Worth the 30 point premium, even if the Manz aren't troops (not likely trukk boyz will survive to score, but Manz can potentially survive a fair amount of small arms fire). If one were to buy a battlwagon for the MANz, the cost would go up considerably, but BW is pretty good by itself, compared to the uselessness of the trukk (once its delivered its payload, assuming it can even pull that feat off).

I personally don't take much boyz anymore, 2 full units of shoota boyz (no nob) on foot (to clog up movement lanes, throw out lots of dakka, and score), or a single 20 battle wagon slugga boyz w/PK nob is pretty much it these days. I use grotz and nobz for my main troops mostly. Back in 4th I had a completely boy free list, using deff dreads as my sole troop. 5th ed scoring rules killed that list, as fun as it was to have a super elite ork army.

One shouldn't seriously take The Doc, his version of rage is even worse than the drawback that tankbustas have.

All in all, meganobs aren't the most well rounded unit, but if points are too light for regular nobs, or need a concentrated unit of cheap power klaws, MANz are a good unit to have in your arsenal.

Also, I don't get the warbiker dig. What is wrong with them? 25 pts for mobile always cover S5 shots isn't bad, 75 points for 9 shots that hit about 55% of the time isn't that bad. Give them a nob for a bit more and you have a fast PK with 4 wounds. I've had better luck with them for their points than with truk boyz to be honest. Hell the Wazdakka army isn't that bad, a bit paper rock scissors, but definitely solid. I respect it more than the kan wall, and slightly less than 3 BW lists.

notabot187 wrote:

Compare the cost of 10 boyz in bare bones truck, including PK nob, vs 3 diverse Manz in same trukk. 135 vs 165. Both are suicide units, but which one is more likely to kill what it touches?

I suppose that's what it comes down to then. My boyz *do* live to the end of the game to hold objectives, and I've never once considered anything in a list I've run to be a suicide unit or expendable. Even my single deffkopta units, as lone ranger as it gets don't get thrown into something I don't think they can get away from unless the reward is extremely high.

3 Manz vs 12 Orks (one of which has a powerklaw) - I'd bet on the Orks anyday of the week.

Dashofpepper wrote:

notabot187 wrote:

Compare the cost of 10 boyz in bare bones truck, including PK nob, vs 3 diverse Manz in same trukk. 135 vs 165. Both are suicide units, but which one is more likely to kill what it touches?

I suppose that's what it comes down to then. My boyz *do* live to the end of the game to hold objectives, and I've never once considered anything in a list I've run to be a suicide unit or expendable. Even my single deffkopta units, as lone ranger as it gets don't get thrown into something I don't think they can get away from unless the reward is extremely high.

3 Manz vs 12 Orks (one of which has a powerklaw) - I'd bet on the Orks anyday of the week.

I wouldn't say 12 boyz in a trukk is very survivable. First off, they lose 1/3 of the unit if the trukk explodes (which is 2/3 of the time when destroyed) Secondly they have 6+ armor and might as well go last initiative. They will lose models before striking.

Against full tac (which is a pretty weak CC unit) they would lose just under 3 on average. Then the 8 remaining boyz take their 32 attacks, killing just under 3 marines. Then the nob attacks and kills just under 2 (1.66) marines. With LD 9, those marines will stay (if they choose to, combat tactics) over half the time, and they take 2 no retreat even if they fail (or fail to get away). Next round the orks should lose about 2, the boyz take their 18 attacks, kill 1 marine, nob kills one more. Drawn combat? After a bit the orks will probably win, due to the klaw, but will have so few models a bolt pistol can cause them to panic.

Mega nobs in same situation: marines get their 12 attacks, deal about half a wound on average, killing no meganobs. Meganobs get their 12 attacks, kill 5 marines. Marines take LD at -5, will probably run. If caught, marines will probably lose another to no retreat wounds. Next round, 4 marines will do probably nothing. Nobs 9 attacks kill remaining unit, or all but 1 (and he might die to no retreat). Most likely free to act on your turn, will little to no casualties.

How well do 12 boy PK squad do against vehicles (esp if they move?) 4 attacks vs 12? no contest, a Manz unit even have a reasonable chance (33% when cruising, nearly a sure thing when combat speed) to pen LRs moving compared to farting in the wind with single klaws.

Now these are over simplified ways of expressing how well units could do, the marines for instance could fail more than they should in saves, and the orks could get hot on their dice. That being said, mega nobs allow no luck on the marine players side, and can take more return damage than boys (5 times more likely than boyz to make a save, so the half as many wounds is not a big factor). So if they get lucky, their high end performance is more likely to result in dead marines.

mathhammer out of the way:

I personally feel that ALL units are expendable. I'm not saying throw units away for no gain or long odds, but if their is a good chance that their sacrifice is worth the potential return, I will make it.
Trukk boyz IMHO don't have a great return for the risk, nor do they have to ability to be bullet catchers (like footsloggers, or wagon boyz) for long. Mega nobs DO have a high end reward, and they can take quite a bit of firepower to down. If they want to ID, they need lascannons to get past armor, MLs and battle cannons only kill 1/6 of the time when they wound. Plasma is usually pretty rare, that means multiple units firing. And meganobs can take more than a tac squad or two of shooting before dieing.

Are meganobs very good? Not really, they tend to be a one hit wonder. But after that hit they are a costly distraction for your enemy, as they either have to move away, or have to kill them. I'll take MANz over trukk boyz any day.

Another thing to look at with MANZ is what other people bring to the dance as it were, Dash touched on this but lets take it one step further for ard boyz and take a look at the top 3 codex choices as considered by the world at large. IG Guard will out shoot you and then wear you down in attritiion forever, melta vets will take battle wagons out easy and vendetta;s with lasscannons should do the same. They can pick apart your army and ussualy get away from you if you don't use multiple squads, plus they have so many ID causing weapons and ap 1-2 running aorund FNP is next to useless. SW: Thunderwolf cav will eat MANZ, they will get the charge, and with the amount of longfangs and dpodding hunters, they will torch your ride and let you be charged. Angels will simply never ever be close enough to be charged, they are to fast and can spam power weapons every where. again multiple units are needed to hem them in and absorb the damage. Plus their ability to DS where they want spamming melta and BW will not do much to keep your MANZ mobile. Now I am not saying that MANZ are a horrible unit, they have their place, but when you talk hard boyz level competition people are not bringing a fun lets have a great game lists, people are bringing I am going to hammer you in the face till you die lists. At the high levels it's all about points effectiveness. Nobz move faster, hit just as hard, and can wound allocate to last longer, with the same invul and a fnp save. They simply bring more to the table for less points, and are more versatile in load outs and abilities.

Notabot, Boyz lose 16-25% of their unit if the trukk explodes statistically. =D

*edit*

And a unit of boyz against a full tac squad: 12 boyz vs. 10 marines....are you crazy? Throw 200 points of Orks at 200 points of marines and Orks will win. Don't throw equal numbers.

And before any smug comment about my math....it *is* right. I promise. =D Think it through.


*edit 2* And I'm not going to get down in the weeds defending against the use of MANz until everyone agrees with me. I'm all about people bringing crap to the table, and advocating the use of crap. =D Helps my win record.

Mad doc in a squad of manz=bad idea to give the manz mad docs super rage. Also note with 2 wounds and a 2+ armor save manz don't have any real need for fnp.

Mad doc in an army that uses manz giving manz a 5+ invo, but not attaching mad doc to the manz=competitive. Manz can really use the invo, and none of the mad docs rage screws with the manz.

Dashofpepper wrote:Mad Dok + MaNz?

I think someone is going to be crafty and outflank behind you, forcing the MaNz wagon to chase after it, and lead them merrily around the board (with or without wagon) until they've dealt with everything else.

Dash you make great points about the gameplay power of MANz but you completely fail to realize how awesome the models look.
Agreed on them not being very good in competitive play, which this post is about. But in friendly play they look awesome, feel awesome to play, and are usually very satisfying one way or the other.

The one good thing a MANZ unit brings is shock value to a table.

Most opponents won't see a Meganobs unit in a competitive list. By inserting this unit in there, you are giving the opponent another priority target to try and remove before it gets to his lines.

Of course, an experienced opponent will competently deal with them, so in the grand scheme of things, don't expect to get great mileage out of Meganobs unless you take them only so often.

Exergy wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:Mad Dok + MaNz?

I think someone is going to be crafty and outflank behind you, forcing the MaNz wagon to chase after it, and lead them merrily around the board (with or without wagon) until they've dealt with everything else.

Dash you make great points about the gameplay power of MANz but you completely fail to realize how awesome the models look.
Agreed on them not being very good in competitive play, which this post is about. But in friendly play they look awesome, feel awesome to play, and are usually very satisfying one way or the other.

Dash is completely right that Mad Doc should never be in the Manz unit. The models are awesome, and cyborks Manz for +5 points are completely awesome. Actually joining Mad Doc to the Manz does no good. It already takes 12 regular wounds to kill 1 meganob, or 48 WS4 S4 attacks to kill 1 meganob. 96 WS4 S4 attacks should kill 2 meganobs who will in return dish out 21 power klaw attacks and win combat resolution as long as those score more than 4 wounds. Meganobs have no need for FNP as the stuff that kills them ignores armor saves and FNP.

The Manz can have their cheap cybork bodies through mad dok, and mad dok can join another unit like a mob of Trukk boys with cybork bodies who would suddenly become very survivable and fearless.

WarOne wrote:The one good thing a MANZ unit brings is shock value to a table.

Most opponents won't see a Meganobs unit in a competitive list. By inserting this unit in there, you are giving the opponent another priority target to try and remove before it gets to his lines.

Of course, an experienced opponent will competently deal with them, so in the grand scheme of things, don't expect to get great mileage out of Meganobs unless you take them only so often.

Agreed, the worst part is, there is really only one way to use MANz, and thats stick them in a transport. Problem there, is even a BW is easy enough to pop. If I where playing against MANz, Id just smoke the transport and then ignore them the rest of the game. Pretty easy to do, since they are slower then slow


But, I still bring them from time to time. Its fun shrugging off wounds like its nothing and then ripping the hell out of stuff afterwards