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We all know that Dark Eldar really screwed Nids with all of their poison weapons. In particular they wreck Tervigons which are the linchpin of the better Nid lists. This got me thinking of alternative Nid builds that do not feature MCs. Now I know that Warriors are considered a very sub optimal choice right now with all of the strength 8+ weapons that can insta-kill them, however they may be a good response to the Dark Eldar and may be playable against other armies.

Here is a 1500 point list
Tyranid Prime with a Pair of Bone Swords and Regeneration
9 Tyranid Warriors with rending claws and scything talons.
9 Tyranid Warriors with rending claws and scything talons.
9 Tyranid Warriors with rending claws and scything talons.
9 Tyranid Warriors with rending claws and scything talons.
3 Hive Guard
3 Venomthropes

The idea is to play the list defensively. Use the warriors to completely obscure the guard and the thropes. When the warriors take hits that are ap4, go to ground and get a 4+ save from the thropes. With four troop choices the list should be playable in objective games. It has relatively few kill points, and most of the units are sturdy. I am not saying that it can compete with the top lists such as Mech Guard or Wolves, but I don't think that other Nid builds can either.

The Warriors without long range weapons are a severe handicap.

With what a Dark Eldar list can pack, here is a short summary of what they will be doing:

Dark Lances- each one that gets through will insta kill a Warrior.

Poison- As you mentioned, they will be packing lots of poison shots. Now I understand the argument for talking about taking T4 since what does T matter to poison weapons? But without transports, everything will be shooting into the Warriors. Even 3 wounds and a 4+ save will not be enough against piles of wounds incoming.

Good CC ability- while Warriors are T4, W3- they have I4 and will be struck down hard by dedicated assaults once the long range duel is over.

Mobility- running after the DE is going to be suicidal. You need some way to pop open those transports and get to what is inside.

Fixes-


If you still want to do the unexpected, try the following:

Remove the 3 Venomthropes- they are decent, but your in critical need of long range fire support. Plus, it is a guarantee that after the DE kill the Hive Gaurd, the Venomthropes are next (that may all happen in 1 turn). You can stack your men so that everything behind the first wall of soliders can get cover saves. I would probably add in 3 more Hive Guards and move around the groups so it is 3 units of 2.

I would then give each group of Warriors a Venom Cannon- 36" range blast template with Str 6. It glances on a 4, pens on a 5 on alot of the things a DE list is packing.

If you want more cover saves, a cloud of 20 or so Gargs with glands and venom can be another thread to bring to the table. They clog the shooting lanes and force the DE to waste shots on them first.

WarOne wrote:The Warriors without long range weapons are a severe handicap.

With what a Dark Eldar list can pack, here is a short summary of what they will be doing:

Dark Lances- each one that gets through will insta kill a Warrior.

Poison- As you mentioned, they will be packing lots of poison shots. Now I understand the argument for talking about taking T4 since what does T matter to poison weapons? But without transports, everything will be shooting into the Warriors. Even 3 wounds and a 4+ save will not be enough against piles of wounds incoming.

Good CC ability- while Warriors are T4, W3- they have I4 and will be struck down hard by dedicated assaults once the long range duel is over.

Mobility- running after the DE is going to be suicidal. You need some way to pop open those transports and get to what is inside.

Fixes-


If you still want to do the unexpected, try the following:

Remove the 3 Venomthropes- they are decent, but your in critical need of long range fire support. Plus, it is a guarantee that after the DE kill the Hive Gaurd, the Venomthropes are next (that may all happen in 1 turn). You can stack your men so that everything behind the first wall of soliders can get cover saves. I would probably add in 3 more Hive Guards and move around the groups so it is 3 units of 2.

I would then give each group of Warriors a Venom Cannon- 36" range blast template with Str 6. It glances on a 4, pens on a 5 on alot of the things a DE list is packing.

If you want more cover saves, a cloud of 20 or so Gargs with glands and venom can be another thread to bring to the table. They clog the shooting lanes and force the DE to waste shots on them first.

I do not think that it will be possible to drop the Hive Guard in the first or second turn, as they will be out of sight, behind 36 warriors, but it may be that lists pack much more long range firepower than I thought.

I thought of different builds, including more Hive Guard instead of thropes, however, I think the thropes are essential. They give the warriors a 4+ cover save out in the open if the warriors go to ground. It really helps against the strength 8+ weapons. You are right that Gargoyles are another option, however I figured that they would be an easy kill point without the Tervigon. The thropes also help deal with hordes thanks to their spores.

I would love to include the Venom Cannons. If I do, I would have to sacrifice the free rending claws, making the Warriors much more vulnerable to assault.

I would not chase the transports. My game plan in objective games would be to sit on objectives. In a kill point game I would try to pop a transport or two with the guard and then fall back. If the opponent is bringing lots of long range fire power I may even reserve the entire army.

Since we're talking specifically about DE vs Tyranid, I thought I'd chime in.

1. You can't hide Hive Guard behind warriors. You can get them cover behind warriors, but you can't completely hide them - not against skimmers that are taller than you. You can plop them behind BLOS terrain.

2. Dark Eldar are a 36" range army. Lances are 36" and Splinter Cannons are 36". Unless your Hive Guard are out front to get to the 24" mark to shoot at transports, they're going to sit behind your warriors for the whole game with nothing to shoot at. You have three of them. T6 with 2 wounds each. 4+ armour, 4+ cover save. Not even considering the going to ground bit because if they do, they're useless, which is equally acceptable to dead. So...for six wounds to get through a 4+ save, I need to cause 12 wounds. To cause 12 wounds, I need to get 24 hits. To get 24 hits, I have to fire 36 shots. That's three venoms. 180 points worth of transport.

3. So lets presume that your Hive Guard *are* going to be out of LOS, and beyond range, not getting shot at (or killing anything in return). You mention going to ground to get a 4+ cover save on your warriors. Every unit that goes to ground is going to get ignored. And then the next unit is going to get fired at. Until your entire army is...voluntarily pinned? In the meantime, ravagers are insta-popping whatever your venomthropes are attached to (unless they go to ground, then moving on) while you have no way to answer back.

4. In terms of deployment (since we're talking about DE vs. Tyranid), two options.
A.) You reserve everything. DE sits still for turn one, moves everything flat out around their own deployment zone on turn2 so that everything has a 4+ save, is 36-37" away, and ready to alpha-strike whatever you get out of reserve. Hive Guard still can't do anything.
B.) You reserve everything. If the DE player is *not* playing a friendly game with you, and its a competitive setting, they are going to flat out on the first turn, and on the second turn line your board edge. No shooting required; all reserves of yours that aren't deep-striking or outflanking are automatically destroyed.

I'd go on, but I'm hoping that I've been persuasive enough that this list isn't the answer to Dark Eldar.

You should change your alias from Dashofpepper to Dashyourhopes.

Kidding, aside. He is right. Warriors are beyond bad right now. Played my brother a couple of days ago and Dark Lances seem completely unfair versus Warriors. I don't think I would ever play Warriors. Ever. Seriously. They are just that freaking bad right now. Especially against DE.

If I played 'Nids, I would max out on Hive Guard (yes, all 9), and then play droves and droves of Genestealers and Gargoyles. Not sure about HQ, though. Hive Tyrants seems so meh. Almost laughable really. Sad that GW gimped that codex so bad.

I am never one to dash a list, especially if it is a bad one.

It does have serious problems versus Dark Eldar, as do many Nid lists. How many 36" lances do they take at 1500? I suppose somewhere around 12. So comes out to 8 hits, 7 wounds, and 4 dead Warriors per turn. More Primes would help as they are not insta killed by st 8+, but only two can be taken as they are HQs, as would Venom Cannons.

Synapse is a big problem if you do not play MC, Warriors, or Steelers. I figured that the latter would get mowed down by Dark Eldar shooting, so I started to consider Warriors. However, maybe with a bunch of Steelers, two primes and lots of Gargoyles you can survive. Somehow I don't think they will do much better than the Warriors.

The bottom line is that Tyranids are going to have a difficult time against a Dark Eldar player with a good list and good grasp on how to use the list.

I don't like to be an absolutist that you will never win, so talk to Hulksmash about how to tweak an unorthodox list of 'Nids to try and face off against a DE list.

If you wnat to go anti dark eldar give all of the warrior squads a venom cannon. I do not know how good it will be against regular oponents however.

Dash, what would you recommend for a competitive nid list right now? Or, if it's easier, the least uncompetitive nid list?

Something to remember about Venom Cannons is that they don't have the -1 to damage rolls against Open-Topped vehicles.

Something else to keep in mind is that Warriors and Venomthropes can Go to Ground. If you have a Tyranid Prime join a unit then that unit can Go to Ground and catch up to three S8 shots without interrupting your Cv4+.

Ian Sturrock wrote:Dash, what would you recommend for a competitive nid list right now? Or, if it's easier, the least uncompetitive nid list?

Competitive Nids? Well, I'd say that it starts with 3 units of Hive Guard and builds up. Just like competitive Dark Eldar starts with 3 units of Ravagers. And competitive Space Wolves start with 3 units of Longfangs.

Infiltrating multiple large stealer units followed up with trygons, gargoyles and hive guard. Synapse is the issue since the list moves so fast some units will end up out of range pretty fast, but I see a Prime and the Parasite as options here...or maybe the Swarmlord for his extended synapse range. Worth a test run.

Genestealers have been mentioned numerous times in this thread. They do not need synapse and they can infiltrate. However, they are expensive. I know that discussing points is a nono, and I would like to list the troops choices in terms of points per wound. Instead I will rank them, thus not revealing points. (I realise that this does not consider offensive capabilities, but I do not expect to win by tabling my opponent. I am more concerned with him tabling me.)

Cost per wound from lowest to highest
Ripper Swarms
Termagants
Hormagaunts
Tyranid Warriors
Genestealers

Cost per wound taking into account armor saves
Ripper Swarms
Termagants
Hormagaunts / Tyranid Warriors
Very far back at almost twice the cost: Genestealers

(Remember that bolters eliminate the armor on all of the choices except Warriors)

The Genestealers are last in both rankings. I think that they are too expensive if they do not have cover and or feel no pain from a Tervigon. Also remember that they do not have grenades so they will take a beating before getting to strike.

Ripper Swarms and Termagants are just terrible, they have short range guns and suck in hand to hand combat. Even if you upgrade their guns, you still have to pop enemy transports, which can be a problem.

Other than Warriors, I think that Hormagaunts are the only other option really worth considering. Their main problem is that they will not sit still to hold objectives if there is not a synapse creature with them.

On a different note, I want to address Dash of Peppers suggestion to run lots of Hive Guard. In general this may be true, just as it is usually a good idea to run Tervigons. They are the most effective units. However, against Dark Eldar Hive Guard are not so useful, as their vehicles have the upgrade that shortens the range of your weapons. Also, without synapse creatures the Hive Guard will shoot at the closest target, so the Dark Eldar player will focus on shooting units holding the synapse creatures. There are other long range vehicles threats in the environment like the Storm Raven, which if it is not shot at more than 30" away, will zoom forward and drop a dreadnought and death co into close combat.

spaceelf wrote: However, against Dark Eldar Hive Guard are not so useful, as their vehicles have the upgrade that shortens the range of your weapons.

Just because a codex has something doesn't mean it gets used. =D

I daresay you'll never see a DE player worth their salt using Nightshields.

Dashofpepper wrote:
Just because a codex has something doesn't mean it gets used. =D

I daresay you'll never see a DE player worth their salt using Nightshields.

Well in the land of sub-optimal lists where I play there are lots of crazy things including Nightshields. I am actually glad, as it would be boring to constantly face the same old optimal stuff.

Actually in our group Nightshields are very effective. If the Dark Eldar alpha strike most of the long range anti tank stuff, the shields give the skimmers lots of room to avoid small arms fire. 6" rapid fire is no fun.

Firing at 24" or 18" from nightshields doesn't make a lot of difference when your opponent can sit back and and eat you up with lance and splinter cannon fire from 36" while remaining on equal terms or better for mobility. The simple fact is you are going to have to make a compromise somewhere in making an all-comers list for nids. Either maximize your effectiveness against the majority of armies and just accept that if you end up against DE that you are probably going to get stuffed, or reduce your overall effectiveness against everyone else so you can have somewhat equal footing with DE.

Actually I think multiple large units of stealers are effective against most lists since they are a real threat that is going to be hitting turn 2. They can handle transports and even against hordes they have a large number of rending attacks. With poison they are even better and with preferred enemy or furious charge from a tyrant they can also pose a threat against T5 nasties (thunderwolf cav, nob bikers, etc).

They may be a bit expensive but they do a number against a lot of units out there. Ultimately they are worth their cost.

Lukus83:

How would a unit of Hormagaunts get Furious Charge from a Tyrant? I can see them getting an outflank from a Hive Commander and then Furious Charge from integral Adrenal Glands, but that's about it.

Nurglitch wrote:Lukus83:

How would a unit of Hormagaunts get Furious Charge from a Tyrant? I can see them getting an outflank from a Hive Commander and then Furious Charge from integral Adrenal Glands, but that's about it.

I think Lukus83 means the Swarmlord..

Against DE I'd go with as many genestealers as possible. Ymgarls in your elite slots are nice because they can pop out of cover and get right into assault. Stealers should be able to assault and wreck DE skimmers and should be able to CC with DE. Tyranids vs. DE is going to be an uphill battle however you look at it though.

Well a regular tyrant within 6" can grant preferred enemy, but yes for FC you need the Swarmlord. However if you have taken poison on the unit the Swarmlord has the bonus of granting whichever is more appropriate at the time...and at a longer range too.

I just wanted it to be clear.

Comparatively, you're better off with an Old Adversary if that's what you want, because regular Hive Tyrant can be equipped with a Heavy Venom Cannon too. Combine those with Warriors and Carnifex Broods, and you're going to have firepower to hurt Dark Eldar. This would be in addition to three units of Hive Guard. Take four units of Warriors and two large units of Termagants to screen them, and you're good.

I understand where you are coming from, but I put little stock in venom cannons of any variety. I prefer genestealers with Hive guard just because they are so versatile. Both units can deal with transports. Stealers with poison can also take on high T monsters really easily. They may struggle against walkers, but Hive guard can deal with them. En masse with stealers with FC can get the job done if pushed into it. AV14 is really the only thing these units can't touch, which is where trygons come in. Not a great AV14 buster, but it's something and they themselves are also incredibly versatile and less prone to counters such as Jaws and Nullzone.