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Hi,

Id like your opinions on BS shooting. Im starting to think its redundant.

I played a few games as dwarfs and found my 100+ point thunderers wanting. Never making up their cost.

Say 10 shots, half miss at long range, half wound anything to shoot at worthwhile ie T4+ units. After saves, im lucky to kill 2. Doing this 2 maybe 3 times and its CC time.

Ive got a 10 man gunner unit not really going to make an impact. My Organ gun costs less and does much better.

I suppose other BS stuff from other races will be hitting on 5+ making them even less useful.

I wont give up, Im speccing for quarrelers with GWs, pff might get 3-4 kills before CC, but instead can field warriors with GW and heavy armour for cheaper.

I think DE and pistoliers with repeaters may be the only viable BS stuff worth investing in.

What do you think?

KSpen wrote:Hi,

I played a few games as dwarfs and found my 100+ point thunderers wanting. Never making up their cost.

You did remember that thunderers have +1 to hit didn't you?

Aye, 4s to hit long range hence half get through (was basing on 10).

Still 10 is near enough 150 points.

Turn 1-2 prob = 3-4 kills. Then close range, you cant wheel or reform or lose out on shooting so limited selection to shoot at if at all any!

So yeah, bit miffed at them atm. Its worse for other BS3 stuff without that +1.

I think the idea behind missile units is that, unlike war machines, they stand a chance in close combat. Quarrelers with great weapons stand a decent chance of winning a combat, fielded in a sizable block, where a war machine crew is going to die, plain and simple. Dwarf war machines are a bit tougher, but not by much.

That, and they might be a little more versatile. No minimum range, an extremely low chance for zero damage (unlike most war machines), etc. Good for taking on skirmishers and lone characters (...though I did watch a lone Dark Elf Lord weather a storm of over 100 poisoned darts...)

Now, I'm not saying missile troops are awesome. They're not. But there's a few reasons to take 'em, and a few units that prove their worth.

- Skinks are awesome. As are Gutter Runners (how you can poison a sling bullet is beyond me, but whatever).

- Night Goblins are better off with spears or bows than their standard hand weapon/shield combo, so maybe some extra shots from those bows might be worth while.

- Along those lines, Peasant Bowmen could work as an anvil for Brettonia. S4 to S3 is a hit, but the extra shooting can come in handy, and losing light armor isn't losing anything at all.

Warpsolution wrote:As are Gutter Runners (how you can poison a sling bullet is beyond me, but whatever).

Contact poison!

I finally gave my rangers crossbows and while I haven't been over the moon about it, I've been satisfied. They are handy for shooting things that I just don't want to have to devote an entire war machine to.

So, if my flaming cannon knocks 4 wounds off a hydra, I'll try to peg the last one off using the crossbows, allowing me to shoot my organ gun and stone thrower at other targets where I'm able to make use of the full potential.

Red_Zeke wrote:I finally gave my rangers crossbows and while I haven't been over the moon about it, I've been satisfied. They are handy for shooting things that I just don't want to have to devote an entire war machine to.

So, if my flaming cannon knocks 4 wounds off a hydra, I'll try to peg the last one off using the crossbows, allowing me to shoot my organ gun and stone thrower at other targets where I'm able to make use of the full potential.

I think RZ makes a great point. Your thunderers should probably not be used as your main source of shooting. Prioritize your targets with your big weapons first, then use the thunderers to fill in where needed or pick a target that they will hurt (skirmishers, harassing units, hunters). You shouldn't really have to reform with a unit of 10 thunderers, don't both ranks get to fire?

I love my DE RXBs, they are as good as spearelves in combat (They get parry saves!) and can take a rank or two off before my units charge.

DE RXB is a huge exception.. Theyre incredibly good and have almost no downside.

The main problem with BS based shooting is terrain, screening units and.. yeah those are the main issues. When you need 6s to hit almost everything .. or worse it just seems pointless

Bolt throwers are just bad considering monsters can get "cover" for being behind units.. they simply dont get cover for obstacles. So against someone who knows the rules even bolt throwers need 6s or 7s

This does make sense, as traditionally the battlefield role of arrows wasn't to kill people. Just sayin'.

Kirasu, +1 to that. The ability to move and fire, at a high volume, and with armor piercing to boot makes for a nice ballistic skill based ranged unit.

Squash, I'd be 100% behind you if they actually accomplished their traditional battlefield role.

The only armies I generally feel comfortable using a lot of BS shooting with are Tomb Kings (which is kind of bending the whole "BS shooting" rule) and goblins - and even the goblins only achieve their goal by the sheer NUMBER of pointy sticks they throw up there.

For the high elves, I generally field Sea Guard just for the option of having something to do in the shooting phases while I close the distance. In my empire mix, the handgunners are just there as S&S detachments.

But it's an interesting point. I have to admit that I never really thought about it that much. I have two Skull Pass sets of dwarves that I was thinking about turning into a small army... I'm curious how effective the thunderers would really be.

Thunderers are much worse than handgunners.. You gain +16% chance to hit for a 75% increase in points.. Sure they're marginally harder to kill and sure they can "hold their own" in CC against the worst units in the game.. but again lets go over the pros

Pro
BS 4

Con
75% more expensive than handgunners

Im gonna wager that 75% more models > 16% hit increase

Thunderers are pretty awful when you get right down to it in 8th compared to other shooting units

Yeah, I think with the penalties of long range shooting, Id like to see the S of the shot upped to 5, and remove the armour pen. At least this way you get a smaller chance to hit but when you do you get a better chance to kill? cmon, their bullets!

12 thunderers is extortionate >150 WS4 S3 T4, might hold a round or 2, not really gonna kill anyone in cc, and its not like dwarfs got a fast flanking unit to support!

I ditched my bs shooting and used 3 blocks of warriors/hammerers, grudge, cannon and 2 orgs. Much more success.

Yes, it is worth it for my Empire in moderate amounts. 10 - 20 crossbows or handgunners let me deal with small support units such as weapon teams or light CAV. I don't want to waste a warmachine shooting at them and I don't exactly want to charge my horde into a WFT. With crossbows, I can outshoot other missile troops. Missile detachments can S&S for their parent and themselves and don't cause panic. On the downside, they're not core.

A parent unit of 20 with a GotE + Crown and BotEF and perhaps a detachment of 10 handgunners is quite neat.

I run skinks, so with poison as long as I get 6s thats all that matters. I love them for taking out WM (a unit of 10 chameleons should take a WM a turn, unless engineer added in) or for just general harrassing duties against elite units, where quantity of wounds is generally better than quality.

...Did we completely skip muskets? Are there muskets in the game?

Ever try long beard rangers defending a watch tower mission?
It's brutal. 10-20 S5 shots (depending on the size of the tower) every round, with a stand and fire too, until you break the stubborn 9, or kill them all. And you've got WS5 and S6 once they come in the door.

Ignore all that mount/cave fluff, dwarves are urban street fighters.

-Matt

I think that good missile troops are bought for all phases, not just the shooting phase. Unlike war machines, they can march and fight in close combat. Perhaps they cannot do these things well, but you don't always need them too. Sometimes you just need a unit somewhere, and the ranged weapons let them contribute in a mild way while they are accomplishing their other task (claiming a quarter, flanking a unit, etc.).

Additionally, certain missile troops are decent fighters on their own, and the missile weapon just gives them something to do until it's time for combat. You don't always want to just run headlong in, it can be useful to have missile troops drop a rank or two off an important combat unit (I'm looking at you, Swordmasters), then charging in to finish the job.

Then there's things like the rattling guns, where I'm not sure they even have a purpose outside of stand and shoot.

I have found so fat that missile units have never made their points back by killing a unit through shooting, at least the way my HE are shooting.

But I also think that missile units are not supposed to make their points back by shooting. They are a supplement to help your CC units make their points back.

You don't spend 200 points (random number) on a missile unit to get 200 VP by destroying a unit.

You spend 200 points on a missile unit to remove steadfast, rank bonuses, and attacks from a unit before it charges/get charged. That way you get 200+ points back when your close combat unit mops up the unit(s) that you have been shooting at for the last 3 turns.

At least that is how I have been trying to use my shooters.

And that is probably the best way to do it.

Everyone talks about "making up its points", but that's a lot harder said than done. There are a lot of other elements to the game beyond that.

If there weren't, I'd just want an army of Engineers with Doom rockets.

Stop complaining, my WE archers are amazing, moving and shooting with no penalties. S4 at short range with 3's to hit.

But it all comes down to how you use them. Thunderers are good at kiling heavily armored enemies. If you are playing WOC, use them to shoot knights. It is all about picking your targets. A unit of Dark elf fast cav is a good target. Or you could always weaken that hoard before they make combat. The point is that they may not make up their point with what they kill, but the way they help screw up your opponents plans or how they give you that extra boost in CC when they flank that enemy unit that ran into you hammers almost always makes them worth their points.

I do believe that he has a right to complain. There's a good reason you see next to zero units of rank-and-file missile troops in Warhammer- they're not very good. You see them in Wood Elf armies a lot, but that's because they have a terrible selection of rank-and-file!

Here's the deal: Thunderers impose a -2 to Armour; hardly "good at killing heavily armoured enemies".
And while Thunderers may be useful, their equivalent in great-weapon Warriors would be better. Shooting a handful of models before combat begins is nice, but killing twice as many in close combat is better.

As said above, these sorts of troops are useful against enemies that stay out of your reach and aren't generally worthy of a war machine's attention.
...then again, you could just ignore them, and with all of the points you could have spent on missile troops, you'll have more stuff to kill what you can or bother to get at.

Kirasu wrote:Thunderers are much worse than handgunners.. You gain +16% chance to hit for a 75% increase in points..

75% more expensive?! There seems to be something wrong with your math. I think you mean ~25%...

No, he's right. Empire Handgunners are 8pts, Thunderers are 14pts. So Thunderers are 6pts more expensive. 6 of 8 is 75%

However, they aren't priced that way for just the +1 to hit. They get better WS, light armour, T4, and Ld 9. Ld 9 is clutch as your general and BSB can't be everywhere. For Dwarves, you can turtle in pretty easily.

But Empire are so cheap it can be hard to keep everything in the General and BSB's bubbles.

As has been mentioned, BS shooting isn't going to make its points back very often. Guess what? That's not its job.

As has been mentioned, BS shooting does other things. Above and beyond shaving ranks and assisting the combat blocks in late-game melees they also...

Do area denial. Don't tell me you've never seen an opponent go out of their way to avoid getting in front of a shooting unit.

Clean up severely depleted units.

Clear out small units of fast cav/flyers/scouts that are going after your casters/war machines.

Serve as diversions, as the opponent sends something after them to keep them from shooting. This helps even the odds for your own melee specialists.


Everything works together in this game. No, shooting troops alone cannot win a battle. In conjunction with artillery, melee specialists, and maneuver units, they are invaluable - when used properly in their role.

Well it just sucks a bit when you deploy and are stuck there as if you reform you lose a rounds shooting. So with standard BS3s you hit on 5s for maybe 2 rounds, maybe need to reform, miss a go and...everyones in melee. Im sure another 15 GW warriors instead will perform better and goes with the 8ths 'meta' of large blocks.

To make it viable id say let xbows et al able to shoot after a SWIFT reform. At least they get to reposition and fire same time.

Or as I said earlier, make the shots more powerful, so those that do get through make more of an impact.

It is rough, but I don't think making them better is necessarily the solution.

I do think that they're overpriced. 3 points for a downgrade to light armour and a crossbow? C'mon.

Yeah, you're typically in combat by turn 3. But not always. And even when you are, it's usually not every single unit.

I think, as stated above, that rank-and-file missile troops are generally not worth it, but provide some extra versatility through their most basic advantage over other troops: they can kill people from farther away. Panic some skirmishers. Drop the last few guys to get VP for the unit.

Yes, you can also weaken units as your enemy advances. But as I and many others have said: these guys typically cost too much (Dwarfs, mainly. The Empire's okay, I think. A lot of Elf stuff is iffy), and if you're only looking to do better in combat and take them to soften up your opponent first, I think you're always going to be better off with more melee troops.

From what I've seen, the really good BS shooting is done better by quantity rather than quality. Personally I haven't had much luck with bolt throwers for instance, but a boat load of arrows from my night goblin archers and then things start to get hurt.