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Anyone have any theories on what befell the 2 space marine legions that are 'lost'? It is not mentioned that they turned to chaos, as 'fully half' is usually referred to as 9, not including the two missing ones. So what do you think happened? Any fluff at all pointing to who they were of what tragedy befell them?

They're left intentionally blank so 12 year olds will have a way to make their custom chapters especially Mary Sueish.

I mean from a fluff point of view, not a sales and gw clever marketing techniques.

There is a tiny amount of evidence to show that they were sanctioned through use of the SW legion and either excecuted or cast out of the Imperium...

purplefood wrote:There is a tiny amount of evidence to show that they were sanctioned through use of the SW legion and either excecuted or cast out of the Imperium...

I hadn't heard this!

I did hear discussion that they were split up into certain chapters. This is why the Ultramarines got so large during the crusade. Far more marines than they were capable of producing 'naturally'.

From the Heresy novel "The First Heretic".

The legions were big...
Very big not just 10,000 people but much bigger... Though the Word Bearers were 2nd biggest next to the Ultramarines.
I cannot remember where but Russ makes a comment about Prospero not being the first time the SW have been called in to sanction another legion.
There is also evidence to show that the 2 legions were assimilated into the Ultramarines legion.
EDIT:The 'evidence' here is sited as rumours that are suspected of being close to the truth.

This contains pretty much all the 'evidence' on the two missing legions:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Two_unknown_legions

BluntmanDC wrote:This contains pretty much all the 'evidence' on the two missing legions:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Two_unknown_legions

Wow, after reading the Lexicanum information it makes me think that the legions for the missing Primarchs were ready to be lead, but for reasons unknown the Primarch never took charge. Often in the books the Legion is already there and they must 'meet' their Primarch on the march.

This gets me to wondering. If all of a Legions warriors are effectively the 'children' of the Primarch leading it, his genetic children, then how would this 'mixing' of warriors occur without someone noticing?

They would eventually all die off though their genetic material would remain in the legion, though they may actively not use it.
It is likely the marines know about it but accept it. Some of the successor chapter deviate from the codex a lot and although coincidental GW could use that as a strong hint device in future books.

Or they could just not get told? Never know, they might not notice lol.

I'm sure i read somewhere that there are theories going around that they could have been imprisoned by the Emperor instead of killed.

Also i'm pretty sure in regards to the SW that they have never actually been used against other Astartes before Prospero, just that they were close to being used, or maybe just used to "arrest" or kill the missing primarchs. But then would they have been able too? One perhaps, but killing both? Obviously not at the same time but would they have been able to? physically and mentally if you understand?

SW were created to be the final resort against another legion. They could easily do it which is why they were sent to Prospero (lets not get into that now) maybe there wasn't any fighting but they were used against anther legion and they seem to have won at least once.
I don't see how or why you would keep 2 legions of astartes in captivity but go figure.

Not the legions imprisoned but the Primarchs. The idea is that whatever they did, the Emperor couldnt bring himself to actually have them killed as they are essentially his sons. If i remember the fluff rightly he didnt want to kill Magnus when he sent the Wolves to Prospero but just to bring him back to Terra, and it was Horus who told Russ to do it. So maybe he was going to do the same to Magnus?

The legions are thought to have been incorporated into the other legions, if this is to be believed then probably the ultramarines is the best guess.

Oh yeah i could believe he would only imprison the primarchs... though i can also believe he would have them executed if they went too far.

In the old days, Sigmar (lost on the Warhammer world in the EoT) might have been one of the expunged primarchs, although he wouldn't have had a legion.

Maybe, but then the Emperor might still want them for something. If what the "Deamon" said to Magnus about being the final component to the golden throne is to be believed, maybe the other two were meant for something as well? Which is why he keeps them alive, in the hope that he still can use them if or when they are finally needed.

Very very old days...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Matt070 wrote:Maybe, but then the Emperor might still want them for something. If what the "Deamon" said to Magnus about being the final component to the golden throne is to be believed, maybe the other two were meant for something as well? Which is why he keeps them alive, in the hope that he still can use them if or when they are finally needed.

Maybe he hopes he can save them still...
They may not have been physically meant for something but the primacrhs were created to fill a particular role. The Emperor had enough foresight to have a contingency if one of them died... obviously he didn't have a plan for if half of them went traitor in the name of the most bloodthirsty gods and butchered their way across tha galaxy in a fratricidal civil war which ended with 5 of his sons dead and himself in a state of undeath and all of his work undone.

Uhlan wrote:
Wow, after reading the Lexicanum information it makes me think that the legions for the missing Primarchs were ready to be lead, but for reasons unknown the Primarch never took charge. Often in the books the Legion is already there and they must 'meet' their Primarch on the march.

It actually says this is in Lexicanum:

20 Legions took part in the Great Crusade, each led by their own Primarch.

I believe this is referencing the McNeil short story, 'the Lightning Tower':

'Statues of the 20 stood on ouslite plinths in a silent ring.'

So all 20 were found, reunited and lead their legions at some point. It also says,

'for the time being the traitors had been shrouded'

(Sigismund had wanted to remove the statues).

The issue raised in The First Heretic concerning the Ultramarines taking on members of the missing legions is just a rumour, as an explanation based on hearsay by one of the Word Bearers as to how the UM legion had become so large. So, a titbit for us to debate but I don't think we will ever know for sure

Of course we won't...
GW loves grimdark and since they employ both Matt Ward and authorsie C.S. Goto they seem to hate coming up with a decently constructed universe.
Which basically means all the really juicy parts of 40k will be "forever lost" or something like that and we will never know because it is more grimdark and they don't have to ruin/work on that part of the fluff.

Well, there have been 10 thousand years since the heresy. Maybe more books will be written which will explain things. My hope is that the assault on Ultramar will be covered... umm, if it hasn't already. That, it seems to me would answer a lot of questions.

Again, the entire heresy thus far has been from the 'wronged' primarchs perspective. I'd be curious to see it from the point of view of the loyalists. They seem to be cardboard cut-outs as of right now. The goody-two-shoes everyone loves to hate. It probably goes against the grain of GW and the whole grimdark thing, but it'd be nice to see the opposing point of view.

The amount of 'heat' Guilliam gets is beyond my understanding. He isn't as angst ridden, or thematically 'cool' as the other primarchs, so he has been relegated to the status of imperial 'suck-up', or worse. I just don't get it. Maybe he's subject to the whole establishment 'poster-boy' syndrome. Maybe it's because he picked 'smurf-blue' as a legion color ...and not Red, black, or grey?

Now, I understand that we are trying to justify or in some cases even fabricate things to make sense of massive lapses in the fluff of a universe that (as far as we know) doesn't exist. It apparently doesn't wholly exist in the minds of the GW and its hired authors either. AND, since we, the fans of the fluff are infinitely more creative than those writing the novels (no sarcasm here), it makes for a fun time skipping along the path of what-ifs and why-nots.

That said, I still don't think the mixing of Space Marine Legions would go unnoticed. I mean, how would this even work is beyond me knowing what we know of the basic fluff.

Unless... *cue sinister grimdark music*

Maybe the Emperor has the lost primarchs in 'suspension' somewhere. Why stop there? Maybe the lost primarchs AND their Legions are in suspension somewhere. The Emperors true 'hole-card', just waiting for his 're-birth'. The whole demise of these brother primarchs a complete sham to fool chaos into false security.

Maybe Chapters with really unique histories like the Red Scorpions, the Chapter with no known primarch or genetic tie to any known Chapter or Legion are members of these lost Legions let loose to gain, umm, experience... I know it's crazy (and a Forge World Chapter), but if you read their fluff it makes a bit of sense.

Ah, for the love of speculation...

Uhlan wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:This contains pretty much all the 'evidence' on the two missing legions:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Two_unknown_legions

Wow, after reading the Lexicanum information it makes me think that the legions for the missing Primarchs were ready to be lead, but for reasons unknown the Primarch never took charge. Often in the books the Legion is already there and they must 'meet' their Primarch on the march.

This gets me to wondering. If all of a Legions warriors are effectively the 'children' of the Primarch leading it, his genetic children, then how would this 'mixing' of warriors occur without someone noticing?

they did take charge of their legions, the Dark King and The Lightning Town makes mention of this when Dorn is covering the statues of the Primarchs with a black cloth he mentions that the statues of Primarch's 2 and 11 were removed earlier on

What is discussed in the Dark King and the Lightning Tower? Are they good reads? Where can they be found?

Small Spoiler Alert!!!

There is also a small tidbit in Nemesis that points out the possible author of the Letito Divinicus was one of the Emoperer's Sons. With that being the case IMHO would be the greatest slap in the face to the Emperor and would be a motive to smite down a son and give his legion to Guilleman. The Letito Divinicus was more dangerous than Lorgar and the Word Bearers proletyzing since it was the written word for a god. Just like the Quran, the Torah, or the Bible not existing would meant those religons possibly becoming extinct before our time.

Above all things the Emperor wants to stop chaos and by what is written in First Heretic it seems that the Emperor has borrowed from Chaos to defeat chaos, and he knows that if he is "worshipped" then chaos has a way into the party so to speak. That's why he's so hard on Lorgar about turning worlds into worshippers, and possibly why one son was purged for writting the Letito Divinicus. Remember the worship of the Emperor is equal to treason through out the Heresy books.

The 2 lost legions going to Guilleman also explains the fact of the amount of divergence some UM seed chapters experience such as the Mortifactors.

or I could just be wrong.

UsdiThunder wrote:Small Spoiler Alert!!!

There is also a small tidbit in Nemesis that points out the possible author of the Letito Divinicus was one of the Emoperer's Sons.

If it was Him then I don't think it would of been presented as vague as it was by the Dagoneti Woman.



Also in first heretic there's this exchange, which implies that Lorgar wasn't the first to feel this way:



Maybe I'm reading too much into it.

Read Scion of the Storm from Tales of Heresy and all will be revealed

BluntmanDC wrote:This contains pretty much all the 'evidence' on the two missing legions:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Two_unknown_legions

wtf? Primarch Rubinek of the Iron Hearts? Well, that's one down.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:This contains pretty much all the 'evidence' on the two missing legions:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Two_unknown_legions

wtf? Primarch Rubinek of the Iron Hearts? Well, that's one down.

That Iron Hearts bit is from way back when GW called Chapter Masters,Primarchs.
I wouldn't take too seriously if I where you.

Melkhiordarkblade wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:This contains pretty much all the 'evidence' on the two missing legions:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Two_unknown_legions

wtf? Primarch Rubinek of the Iron Hearts? Well, that's one down.

That Iron Hearts bit is from way back when GW called Chapter Masters,Primarchs.
I wouldn't take too seriously if I where you.

In my limited understanding, it appears that it was common for authors (as with casual players) to confuse Chapter Masters and Primarchs.

It would be cool though, Primarch Rubinek of the Iron Hearts evokes images of Slavic warriors and culture. A Primarch who looked and acted like Ivan the Terrible? Kinda interesting if I do say so.

Now that I've seen it I can't unsee it. Primarch Rubinek of the Iron Hearts Legion ftw!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:This contains pretty much all the 'evidence' on the two missing legions:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Two_unknown_legions

wtf? Primarch Rubinek of the Iron Hearts? Well, that's one down.

Dear lord, I wondered how long it would take Rubineck to rear his head in this thread

Even the writer of that story said it was written in error (he meant Chapter Master), please let it die

UsdiThunder, you need to read the story story (as Pilau Rice mentioned) about the Word Bearers in 'Tales of Heresy', that will tell you what you need to do regarding that issue.